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Where would Lemieux rank without the cups?

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Old
12-26-2012, 04:21 PM
  #1
Jafar
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Where would Lemieux rank without the cups?

Suppose Pittsburgh was knocked out in the conference finals in 91 and 92 , with Lemieux putting similar PPG in those playoffs but never winning the cup , would he lose his place in the top 4?

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12-26-2012, 04:27 PM
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I think he would lose his place in the consensus top 4 - meaning some people might rank someone like Beliveau over him. But he separated himself from the pack enough in the regular season, where others would definitely still rank him 4th.

I think he'd lose much of his case to be ranked over 4th though.

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12-26-2012, 04:28 PM
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Bobby Hull just has the one cup and is often considered the 5th best.

Lemieux should be no higher or lower than #4 with or without the cups, IMO.

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12-26-2012, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Stansfield View Post
Bobby Hull just has the one cup and is often considered the 5th best.

Lemieux should be no higher or lower than #4 with or without the cups, IMO.
Agree. Only a cup counter would rank him lower and no one with any hockey history knowledge ranks based on cups.

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12-26-2012, 05:07 PM
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Winning the 2 Cups though where he was the man in both cases with some of the most dominant hockey ever played is the reason why he is ranked as high as 4.

To me, Lemieux should be ranked 3rd ahead of Howe but that is just me and that has already been discussed before.

The fact that Lemieux had a terrbile playoff record up until the back-to-back Cups might have helped to elevate him to "Immortal status.

Otherwise some would argue that Bobby Hull, Beliveau and Maurice Richard would have been more deserving of the number 4 spot.

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12-26-2012, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Agree. Only a cup counter would rank him lower and no one with any hockey history knowledge ranks based on cups.
When I say that he might lose his consensus top 4 ranking, I'm basically assuming that he performed worse in the playoffs than he actually did. I mean, it's not just Cup counting, if the Penguins lose in the Conference finals, Mario probably had a worse series, and he definitely loses the Conn Smythe.

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12-26-2012, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
When I say that he might lose his consensus top 4 ranking, I'm basically assuming that he performed worse in the playoffs than he actually did. I mean, it's not just Cup counting, if the Penguins lose in the Conference finals, Mario probably had a worse series, and he definitely loses the Conn Smythe.
Well the OP said "with Lemieux putting up similar PPG" so I don't see how lack of team success drops him out of the top 4.

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12-26-2012, 05:55 PM
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The reason there's a consensus top four is that they've really separated themselves from everyone else. Even a Lemieux with no cups or Smythes is still noticeably better than Hull and Beliveau.

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12-26-2012, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by jigglysquishy View Post
The reason there's a consensus top four is that they've really separated themselves from everyone else. Even a Lemieux with no cups or Smythes is still noticeably better than Hull and Beliveau.
That is not true. Beliveau and Hull were both dominant and set themselves apart from the field as well.

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12-26-2012, 06:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I think he would lose his place in the consensus top 4 - meaning some people might rank someone like Beliveau over him. But he separated himself from the pack enough in the regular season, where others would definitely still rank him 4th.

I think he'd lose much of his case to be ranked over 4th though.
I would tend to agree with this but have been looking at Mario in a different light and much like when I was younger I had this feeling as well.

Mario is the most skilled player I have ever seen and probably of all time.

That being said he didn't come across as a winner and while piling up the points he was at even strength not as strong as one would think a guy like Mario should be.

I guess it comes down to how much his scoring outpaces him from other excellent 2 way centers and actually playing.

He has 6 seasons of 70 plus games and then 67,64,63,60,59,43,26,24,22,10 game seasons.

The 2 Pens teams that won those 2 cups had to really load up on additional talent and experience to get them over the top and win those cups against Minny and Black Hawks (good but were they great teams?).

One could certainly start making arguments for him being out of the top 5 but I would guess most would shoot them down as they remember Mario at his absolute peak.

His peak is probably his 1st 6 seasons and while extremely impressive all time in terms of offense, was his impact greater than guys like Lindros/Crosby during that time in actual making their teams better and winning games? there are questions about that IMO.

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12-26-2012, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I would tend to agree with this but have been looking at Mario in a different light and much like when I was younger I had this feeling as well.

Mario is the most skilled player I have ever seen and probably of all time.

That being said he didn't come across as a winner and while piling up the points he was at even strength not as strong as one would think a guy like Mario should be.

I guess it comes down to how much his scoring outpaces him from other excellent 2 way centers and actually playing.

He has 6 seasons of 70 plus games and then 67,64,63,60,59,43,26,24,22,10 game seasons.

The 2 Pens teams that won those 2 cups had to really load up on additional talent and experience to get them over the top and win those cups against Minny and Black Hawks (good but were they great teams?).

One could certainly start making arguments for him being out of the top 5 but I would guess most would shoot them down as they remember Mario at his absolute peak.

His peak is probably his 1st 6 seasons and while extremely impressive all time in terms of offense, was his impact greater than guys like Lindros/Crosby during that time in actual making their teams better and winning games? there are questions about that IMO.
The first part in bold, yes the Blackhawks were a great team and were on an 11 game winning streak when they ran into Pittsburgh.

The second part has as much to do with the teams they played for as much as it does for the individual player.

The Flyers were an up and coming team and were destined to regain their status among the elite of the NHL.

As for the Penguins with Crosby, they missed the playoffs in his first season, then they got Malkin, Staal and Fleury and they only got better. They were the deepest team at center and probably one of the deepest teams the NHL has ever seen at center. Crosby was a big part of the puzzle but he was nowhere near as instrumental to his team's success (in his first 7 seasons) as Lemieux was to his.

I don't mean to nitpick at your Crosby arguments but are you really trying to sell Crosby's first 7 seasons as this "legendary on pace to greatness" first 7 seasons?

He only has 1 Cup, 1 Art Ross, 1 Hart and Rocket Richard and has played 3 season in which he missed 29 games or more.

Crosby's first 7 seasons in terms of PPG is great (playing less games does that for you) but his award count and actual dominance over his peers is vastly overrated and exaggerated.

Malkin, Ovechkin, Jagr, Lindros, Lemieux, Bossy, Orr and Gretzky have all had a better 7 seasons starts to their careers than Crosby has had.

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12-26-2012, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
The first part in bold, yes the Blackhawks were a great team and were on an 11 game winning streak when they ran into Pittsburgh.

The second part has as much to do with the teams they played for as much as it does for the individual player.

The Flyers were an up and coming team and were destined to regain their status among the elite of the NHL.

As for the Penguins with Crosby, they missed the playoffs in his first season, then they got Malkin, Staal and Fleury and they only got better. They were the deepest team at center and probably one of the deepest teams the NHL has ever seen at center. Crosby was a big part of the puzzle but he was nowhere near as instrumental to his team's success (in his first 7 seasons) as Lemieux was to his.

I don't mean to nitpick at your Crosby arguments but are you really trying to sell Crosby's first 7 seasons as this "legendary on pace to greatness" first 7 seasons?

He only has 1 Cup, 1 Art Ross, 1 Hart and Rocket Richard and has played 3 season in which he missed 29 games or more.

Crosby's first 7 seasons in terms of PPG is great (playing less games does that for you) but his award count and actual dominance over his peers is vastly overrated and exaggerated.

Malkin, Ovechkin, Jagr, Lindros, Lemieux, Bossy, Orr and Gretzky have all had a better 7 seasons starts to their careers than Crosby has had.
The bolded part would be a very interesting question to look at all of those players and their total contribution in their 1st 7 years. Bossy doesn't really fit IMO for a variety of reasons, the biggest being him not be the obvious focal point with Potvin and Trotts there from the start but maybe that's nitpicking who knows.

Uh they had MAF, he was 21 in Crosby's 1st rookie season where he led the Pens in scoring with 102 points and a minus 1 rating, next best was gonchar with 58 points, then recchi 57, LeClair at 51.

Mario had 100 points and was minus 35 (middle of the pack for the team) and while his line mates scored better than Sid's next best on the team, Bullard the 2nd line center also had over 60 points.

Mario's teams certainly added way more talent around him than they have with Crosby as well.

No one is arguing that Mario isn't an offensive force of nature but for a guy who was as dominant offensively as he was his plus/minus over his 1st 7 seasons was plus 26.

Sid by comparison sits at plus 80 and has never had the supporting cast that Mario did in 91 when they airlifted in considerable talent to compliment what they already had to win the cup despite missing the playoffs the previous year with considerable offensive talent aside from Mario.

Mario was only able to win the cup when the Pens surrounded him with the defensive and 2 way talent and to say that Minny and the Black Hawks were great teams is a stretch, the hawks were probably better but neither is above average in SC losing teams IMO.


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12-26-2012, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Uh they had MAF, he was 21 in Crosby's 1st rookie season where he led the Pens in scoring with 102 points and a minus 1 rating, next best was gonchar with 58 points, then recchi 57, LeClair at 51.

Mario had 100 points and was minus 35 (middle of the pack for the team) and while his line mates scored better than Sid's next best on the team, Bullard the 2nd line center also had over 60 points.

Mario's teams certainly added way more talent around him than they have with Crosby as well.

No one is arguing that Mario isn't an offensive force of nature but for a guy who was as dominant offensively as he was his plus/minus over his 1st 7 seasons was plus 26.

Sid by comparison sits at plus 80 and has never had the supporting cast that Mario did in 91 when they airlifted in considerable talent to compliment what they already had to win the cup despite missing the playoffs the previous year with considerable offensive talent aside from Mario.

Mario was only able to win the cup when the Pens surrounded him with the defensive and 2 way talent and to say that Minny and the Black Hawks were great teams is a stretch, the hawks were probably better but neither is above average in SC losing teams IMO.
You have a point view and despite any arguments against it, you won't change your mind. Continue on.

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12-26-2012, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
You have a point view and despite any arguments against it, you won't change your mind. Continue on.
Yes that makes me unique here right?

And I have actually changed my mind on quite a few players on my time here, Larry Murphy being a HHOF player for one.

It's funny though that i can actually make a pretty good argument for Crosby versus Mario overall in their 1st 7 years when you state stuff like Mario is 2x Sid and Malkin combined right?

Still waiting for something, anything to back up that assertion.

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12-26-2012, 07:59 PM
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Slightly off topic, but I was always a bit surprised that those Penguins teams in the 90s didn't manage to win another cup or two.

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12-26-2012, 08:20 PM
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Yes that makes me unique here right?

And I have actually changed my mind on quite a few players on my time here, Larry Murphy being a HHOF player for one.

It's funny though that i can actually make a pretty good argument for Crosby versus Mario overall in their 1st 7 years when you state stuff like Mario is 2x Sid and Malkin combined right?

Still waiting for something, anything to back up that assertion.
Crosby has not been better than Lemieux in their first 7 seasons. Quality of linemates among other things have something to do with their team success.

Crosby's first 7 seasons are among the most overrated seasons in recent memory.

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12-26-2012, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Crosby has not been better than Lemieux in their first 7 seasons.
In terms of offense no, but in terms of overall play and impact to his team there is an argument, of course injuries have hurt his case a lot in the last 2 years.


Quote:
Quality of linemates among other things have something to do with their team success.
For which player are you referring to? It's not like Sid's line mates are perennial all stars or even average top 6 players for that matter.

Quote:
Crosby's first 7 seasons are among the most overrated seasons in recent memory.
Everyone is that over rated by at least someone but why no response to your earlier assertion that Mario was 2x what Malkin and Sid are combined?

Sid's record stands for itself as I pointed out in my post in another thread comparing him and the competition between him and Yzerman.

For the record Sid is 12th in goals, 3rd in assists and 3rd in points among all players in his 1st 7 years.

In PPG he is 5th, 1st and 1st with a 1.40PPG next best is Malkin 1.23.

Mario of course was more offensively dominant being 1st, 2nd and 2nd but didn't have anything close to a 2way game.

Also in Mario's sample there are exactly 3 non Candians in the top 20 goal scoring list, 5,6,7 and 4 guys in the top 20 assists 10,14,16,18.

For points there are 4 guys top 20 (9,10,13,17)

Post lockout it's a much different scene.

Non Canadians on top 20 list overall

Goals 10 players(1,2,8,9,10,13,14,16,17,20)

Assists 8 players (2,5,6,9,11,12,14,20)

Points 10 players (1,4,6,8,9,13,14,16,17,20)

But sure we always hear how the league is watered down as well right?

7 of the possible 1st or 2nd team all star goalie spots are taken by non Canadian players post lockout.

14 of 28 Defense positions as well.

From 85-92 in Mario's 1st 7 seasons the breakdown is 4 Goalies and 9 Dmen.

2 entirely different landscapes to compare, at least you will agree to that?

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12-26-2012, 09:46 PM
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Many of you will literally not understand this, but any time you create a hypothetical situation (Espo w/o Orr), you're not talking about the player, you only think you are. You're talking about a different player like Marcel Dionne. Marcel Dionne went 50th in the HoH Top 70 players of all time and he never won a cup. Am I saying Lemieux would be ranked 50th? Of course not, they're 2 completely different players and I live in the real world, not speculation world. A belated Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all!

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12-26-2012, 10:25 PM
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Many of you will literally not understand this, but any time you create a hypothetical situation (Espo w/o Orr), you're not talking about the player, you only think you are. You're talking about a different player like Marcel Dionne. Marcel Dionne went 50th in the HoH Top 70 players of all time and he never won a cup. Am I saying Lemieux would be ranked 50th? Of course not, they're 2 completely different players and I live in the real world, not speculation world. A belated Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you all!
My point was to question where a player like Lemieux would be rank if this player didn't win any cup , I don't really care if it's Lemieux or a future hypothetical player with the same career minus both cups and smythes.And yes , it's also interesting to figure out where a player like Lemieux would rank if he had the Dionne reputation.

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12-26-2012, 10:33 PM
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Maybe the non-Canadians simply weren't as good in those years. Makes sense that with more teams, they'd be more watered down.

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12-26-2012, 11:18 PM
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Is Brad Park the highest rated player without a Cup?

No way would Mario be a consensus Top 4 with no Cups. I wouldn't be shocked to see Messier Vs. Lemieux arguments.

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12-26-2012, 11:56 PM
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Maybe the non-Canadians simply weren't as good in those years. Makes sense that with more teams, they'd be more watered down.
It's possible but with the Canadian track record at all of the international tournaments it's unlikely a major factor IMO.

Plus it's only 9 more teams that played through out much of the 80's.

If you look a the increase of the number of non traditional Canadian markets, like BC and the Maritimes as whole, they are producing more in terms of quality and quantity, than the 9(30) difference would seem to indicate.

there has also been 30 teams since 01, it would be more probable that a small blip might occur on expansion years but there are other factors in play in the 90's were expansion occurred but scoring went down overall even with the influx of lots of new talent from all European countries and the United states. Some of those are coaching, goal tending equipment and techniques and many others.

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12-26-2012, 11:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RabbinsDuck View Post
Is Brad Park the highest rated player without a Cup?

No way would Mario be a consensus Top 4 with no Cups. I wouldn't be shocked to see Messier Vs. Lemieux arguments.
Perhaps, it's hard to say, for instance I don't rank Bourque any higher for getting one cup in Colorado in his last year than if he had no Cups but I'm not sure how others would treat his case and it would be on a player by player basis as well.

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12-27-2012, 10:15 AM
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Yeah, I think he'd fall out of the top five.

I think the argument would be made that he was injury-prone compilier who feasted on the highest-scoring era in history.

I think his ducking out of best-on-best tournaments several times would also be brought up alot more than it is now. Maybe even his poor WJC performance is tossed in there, as people would start to think of him as a guy who couldn't win the big games and, worse, wasn't always interested in even trying.

I think the Cups and, actually, coming back and playing on one leg in the 2002 Olympics are huge parts in Mario's legacy. Don't forget, prior to that '02 comeback, the idea that he didn't love the game and that he was whiner and complainer was still very much a part of the discourse.

But then again, some people around here rank Jagr far higher than I do and, in doing so, ignore some pretty significant gaps in his commitment to team and winning so its all a matter of perspective.

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12-27-2012, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
For which player are you referring to? It's not like Sid's line mates are perennial all stars or even average top 6 players for that matter.
For stretches, yes, but not for his entire first seven years. Malkin/Malone were his most common linemates in 07-08 (with Colby Armstrong before injuries ruined him rounding out the top 3) and Malkin remained in his top three most common wingers into the next season. Additionally, I remain miffed that Kunitz, who has been a first liner for the past six seasons on two different teams and with five different centers keeps getting dumped on as not an "average top six player" in this thread and others, especially when each of those teams also has a Cup with him there.

Does Sid have his examples of producing with junk? Absolutely, but to act like he's been wandering in the desert with wingers incapable of doing anything right for his entire career is pretty asinine.

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