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Old
12-26-2012, 03:03 PM
  #551
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
its very obvious you didnt watch that cup final series. you keep babbling that lu let in weak goal after weak goal. if you had actualy watched the games, you'd know that the canucks team folded, and was completely non competetive in those games, giving up golden scoring opportunity after golden scoring opportunity, while getting literally zero quality scoring changes themselves. those losses were due to a completely flat team in which maybe 1 or 2 of the 20 players was actually on his game.
As I've said, see Mason in Columbus. That was a substantially worse team and Mason still came out with similar numbers against an equally good opponent. If Vancouver's D allowed more scoring chances than a Columbus team, regardless of year, they wouldn't have made the finals, injured or not.

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this is what the haters are so cluless to, is the team game. any other goalie would have lost those games too, and thats a fact. you can argue they might have let in a few less goals, but not that they'd have won the game.
So then the entire team decided to change between being great and terrible between games? Because as I've said, I would think that 1 person being inconsistent in that period of time is a lot more likely than 10-15, because again, if the entire team was that inconsistent, they wouldn't have made the finals.

Are you saying that from Game 2, where Luongo allowed only 2 goals in a .933 sv% effort, to Game 3, where he allowed 8 goals in a .789 sv% effort, that Luongo was still great in both, but half of Vancouver's roster simultaneously stopped being good for one game? Are you saying that from Game 5, where Luongo had a 31 save shutout, to Game 6, where he was pulled after allowing 3 goals in the first 10 minutes, that he wasn't doing bad, but all of Vancouver's players had an off-game at the same time? That's nothing short of ludicrous.

What about in the season prior, where in the Chicago series he had a 3 game sv% stretch of .818 to .967 to .857?

The year before that, he had another 3 game stretch of .903 to .839 to .958.

There are too many examples of Luongo completely changing from an elite goalie to a below-average goalie, then back to elite again for it to possibly be anyone's fault but himself, unless Vancouver has a pre-game meeting every night to roll a die to see how hard they play.

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also, if they judge every single goalie in the NHL, only Thomas could be considered 'less of a choker'. which is the funny part, defending a goalie has half as many NHL games played, and might be retired. But Lu is 'inconsistent', even tho he's great every single season, and none of the goalies they claim are better have any of thise consistency.
We're not arguing his regular season consistency. He's horribly inconsistent in the playoffs. Luongo got pulled from the net 5 times that year and recorded 4 shutouts. 9 games out of 25 he was either phenomenal or abysmal. 1/3 of your games being on varying extremes of the good/bad spectrum is horrible inconsistency. Find me another elite goalie who has recently had a playoffs where he got pulled from the game more times than he recorded a shutout before I recognize him being remotely consistent.


Last edited by kdfsjljklgjfg: 12-26-2012 at 03:09 PM.
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Old
12-26-2012, 03:23 PM
  #552
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Goaltending is always the biggest reason for winning or losing? You can't honestly believe that, can you?



Yep, the Canucks shelter Luongo. Their trapping, defense first system is undeniable proof of that. Phoenix and St Louis are usually considered the exemplars of systems that inflate goalie stats, but it really should be Vancouver. It's truly amazing how such a defensive team is also the highest scoring team over the past three seasons, all while taking minimal chances and sheltering Luongo. No wonder they want to trade him.

Also, thanks for making the assessment that Vancouver is a soft team. Coming from a fan of those rough and tumble Maple Leafs your opinion on the matter is truly invaluable. Whenever I watched the Leafs play last season I always had to do a double take, just to make sure I wasn't watching a replay of the '75 Flyers. Hopefully if Vancouver ever has to face Boston in the playoffs again they'll take a page out of Toronto's book and play them tough and hard.
Not in the sense of playing good enough to win. It's meant more towards if he's playing unreal well it's a pretty good chance you're gonna win. Then there's goaltending like fleury, Bryzgolov or luongo in certain games where you're not going to win. It's not cut n dry like you're making it out to be

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12-26-2012, 03:37 PM
  #553
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[QUOTE=ProspectProphet;56815141]
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Originally Posted by jayball75 View Post

3 times to beat Chicago... you realize its a team-game, right? And mental abuse??? if so, wouldn't beating them have reversed any affects, making him stronger mentally? For a guy with a "peewee mind", he seemed to handle the Olympics better than Brodeur...

When you say stuff like " wherever he plays he'll be a playoff choker", it seems like you don't understand how the team in front of the goalie affects the game, or maybe you are just concerned with having "fun".

Go ahead and have your own opinions, but its clear that you don't like Luongo, and don't factor in the play of the guys in front of him or the style of hockey they play.
That's my point it took him three times to beat Chicago. Meaning his confidence is weak to the point of pressure situations. Ok so he beats Chicago and passes that mentally but then you have his play against the bruins which was so up and down you could charge admission to ride that roller coaster. Then there's this year and getting pulled two games into the first round vs kings. Don't even get me started on the Olympics where he had a dream team in front of him and still looked shakey letting in the tying goal with two minutes left.

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12-26-2012, 03:43 PM
  #554
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Originally Posted by jayball75 View Post
Not in the sense of playing good enough to win. It's meant more towards if he's playing unreal well it's a pretty good chance you're gonna win. Then there's goaltending like fleury, Bryzgolov or luongo in certain games where you're not going to win. It's not cut n dry like you're making it out to be
Well if your offense or defense are playing unreal then there's a pretty good chance you're going to win too. This year Vancouver got good to great goaltending in all 5 of their playoff games, but got lackluster performances from their offense and defense. It really varies on a situation-situation case what your biggest causes of success/failure are.

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12-26-2012, 03:54 PM
  #555
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[QUOTE=ProspectProphet;56815141]
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Originally Posted by jayball75 View Post

3 times to beat Chicago... you realize its a team-game, right? And mental abuse??? if so, wouldn't beating them have reversed any affects, making him stronger mentally? For a guy with a "peewee mind", he seemed to handle the Olympics better than Brodeur...

When you say stuff like " wherever he plays he'll be a playoff choker", it seems like you don't understand how the team in front of the goalie affects the game, or maybe you are just concerned with having "fun".

Go ahead and have your own opinions, but its clear that you don't like Luongo, and don't factor in the play of the guys in front of him or the style of hockey they play.
Yes I understand its a team game but you don't understand the difference between a couple of forwards playing in consistant or a couple D playing bad is different than the goalie. Bench the players or have play reduced time. But what do you do when the goalie is letting in 15 goals in three games and is deflating the team at a crucial time. T T won the CS for a reason and it was keeping the puck out whether the team was good or bad. It was luongo that needed his tires pumped

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12-26-2012, 03:58 PM
  #556
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Originally Posted by jayball75 View Post

Yes I understand its a team game but you don't understand the difference between a couple of forwards playing in consistant or a couple D playing bad is different than the goalie. Bench the players or have play reduced time. But what do you do when the goalie is letting in 15 goals in three games and is deflating the team at a crucial time. T T won the CS for a reason and it was keeping the puck out whether the team was good or bad. It was luongo that needed his tires pumped
There not much a goalie can do if the team in front of him folds like a cheap tent after 1 goal.

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12-26-2012, 04:03 PM
  #557
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Well if your offense or defense are playing unreal then there's a pretty good chance you're going to win too. This year Vancouver got good to great goaltending in all 5 of their playoff games, but got lackluster performances from their offense and defense. It really varies on a situation-situation case what your biggest causes of success/failure are.
So if you're goalie is letting in 15 goals in three games( yes I'm beating that horse to death but I'm talking about luongo in that series) that's not as bad as the others playing poorly? I'd say you better be able to score a lot if not

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12-26-2012, 04:12 PM
  #558
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He DID do research. I can clearly see him pointing out statistics and facts. Saying "nuh uh, that's dumb." doesn't invalidate all of that, it only negates your own credibility.





Let's compare to another team then. Personally, I would take an injured Vancouver squad over a healthy Columbus squad.

Mason's 10-11 percentage of regular season games at .850 sv% or lower: 24%
Luongo's 10-11 playoff games at .850 sv% or lower: 28%

I think it's safe to say that losing was Luongo's fault, unless you want to call Steve Mason an elite goaltender who can steal games.
When his entire argument boils into a thinly veiled bash of Luongo, devolving further by disregarding every additional factor due to insufficient research or an understanding of the Canucks, then I am well within my right to call it accordingly. There were no facts, just blind assumptions that because Luongo had a poor save percentage, it was his fault.

I fail to see the point of your statistics? Our injuries rendered us a comparable team to Columbus? Not surprisingly, we performed to the expectations people might ave had they somehow warped into that final series. When your only healthy defense consists of Ballard, Tanev, Rome and Alberts. You cannot blame the goalie.

Luongo performed poorly in only one game prior to the Boston series. I find it curious this conveniently ignored, thus facilitating a means to devalue him. It couldn't possibly have to do with our injuries catching up to us. No, Luongo is simply an awful goalie. That must be it.

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Originally Posted by BayStBullies View Post
If Luongo's play dipped signufacantly due to the injured players in front of him; it just goes to prove he is a by product of playing for a stacked team.

You don't think he is sheltered most of the time?

This proves that.

Supposed injuries in the playoffs don't matter; go by man fames lost, or don't bother. Which players dropped out of the lineup at a time that corresponds to the decline of Luongo?

Newsflash; most hockey players play injured in the playoffs. Your team is soft; using injuries as an excuse to overlook the deficiencies in their game. Not a shock from a team that blames the refs every loss. Excuses, excuses, excuses.
Yes, why use a perfectly valid reason to explain a suddenly horrendous performance, especially when it was reported two players were injured to the extent of taking painkillers between periods just to skate. No one is claiming injuries were our only issue nor that Luongo is infallible. What is being said is they were among the reasons.

Because Toronto fans never blame the refs. Nope, that is exclusively a Vancouver thing. What I've seen on your Game Day Boards, alongside every other one on this forum is merely a figment of my imagination. I'm also certain Boston fans never claim the refs favor Montreal, or that people think Boston had some form of favoritism in the playoffs. Again, nope, only Canuck fans blame the refs. Evidently, you do not frequent our board. This fanbase is arguably the most cynical here. If we're not winning, we suck. There is a reason Kesler or Edler suddenly became trade bait to some.

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12-26-2012, 04:12 PM
  #559
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Originally Posted by jayball75 View Post
So if you're goalie is letting in 15 goals in three games( yes I'm beating that horse to death but I'm talking about luongo in that series) that's not as bad as the others playing poorly? I'd say you better be able to score a lot if not
It's bad, but it's not worse. 15 goals allowed in 3 games seems on par with 3 goals scored in those 3 games. Like I said initially; it's nothing more than an exercise in futility trying to rank the factors of offense/defense/goaltending/injuries in terms of negative impact that series, and one in which I have no further interest in pursuing.


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12-26-2012, 04:21 PM
  #560
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Originally Posted by jayball75 View Post
So if you're goalie is letting in 15 goals in three games( yes I'm beating that horse to death but I'm talking about luongo in that series) that's not as bad as the others playing poorly? I'd say you better be able to score a lot if not
Consider it a domino effect. Inconsistent to awful performance from the forwards, leaves the goalie exposed to a greater variety of quality shots. Some sneaks by and confidence diminishes. Those forwards/defensemen overcompensate in an attempt to make up ground, often with worse results. Frustration settling in for a goalie struggling to do the same. This is magnified if he isn't having a particularly magnificent game himself.

As Stringer said, it is pointless to rank the impact inconsistency, injuries, and to what position they apply. Some hold them one to greater affect than another. The only argument being made is exclusivity of our downfall placed upon Luongo.

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12-26-2012, 04:26 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by jayball75 View Post
And wherever he plays he'll be a playoff choker. Hope he stays there or goes somewhere else where the pressure folds his peewee mind. Great reg season goalie with all his a achievements but it took him three tries to beat Chicago and no telling how long this mental abuse will affect him. I also respect your opinion and the other supporters of luongo. Not everyone has the same opinion and that's what makes this fun
The Chicago Achilles heel is, frankly overrated. We lost to a superior team, one that went on to win a cup. Luongo had a few poor games that could readily be accredited to his performance but otherwise Chicago was simply a better team. If they get to Montreal's record over Boston. We'll talk about mind games. Granted, I'll admit their rally to game seven was pushing it.

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12-26-2012, 05:11 PM
  #562
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Consider it a domino effect. Inconsistent to awful performance from the forwards, leaves the goalie exposed to a greater variety of quality shots. Some sneaks by and confidence diminishes. Those forwards/defensemen overcompensate in an attempt to make up ground, often with worse results. Frustration settling in for a goalie struggling to do the same. This is magnified if he isn't having a particularly magnificent game himself.

As Stringer said, it is pointless to rank the impact inconsistency, injuries, and to what position they apply. Some hold them one to greater affect than another. The only argument being made is exclusivity of our downfall placed upon Luongo.
If you call marchands goal in game six which was a back hander from almost the top of circle a quality chance I guess I'm confused as to what the word quality means. That's just one example and with his performance there's a few more but it doesn't matter no one is changing there mind. I hate watching him because he's brutal and i dont understand why people cant see it. That's my opinion and I won't change it.

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12-26-2012, 05:15 PM
  #563
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Once he get traded, there will be a big group of posters that have been dead wrong about his trade value. I have no idea which one, but I will taunt them.

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12-26-2012, 07:10 PM
  #564
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Originally Posted by jayball75 View Post
If you call marchands goal in game six which was a back hander from almost the top of circle a quality chance I guess I'm confused as to what the word quality means. That's just one example and with his performance there's a few more but it doesn't matter no one is changing there mind. I hate watching him because he's brutal and i dont understand why people cant see it. That's my opinion and I won't change it.
a backhander from the top of the circle is literally unsavable, unless it hits the goalie or he guesses right.

the reason its called a GOLDEN scoring chance is that if the shooter doesnt SCREW IT UP, its a goal.


Last edited by piqued: 12-26-2012 at 09:59 PM. Reason: unnecessary
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12-26-2012, 07:58 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
a backhander from the top of the circle is literally unsavable, unless it hits the goalie or he guesses right.

the reason its called a GOLDEN scoring chance is that if the shooter doesnt SCREW IT UP, its a goal.
I found the reply and it was actually a wrister not a back hand shot. Watch the video and try to explain to me why any NHL goalie not just luongo could not make this save. On top of all that think about what's on the line. Ill wait for your explanation why it's a good goal to let in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10aZ80_-13k


Last edited by piqued: 12-26-2012 at 09:59 PM. Reason: qep
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12-26-2012, 08:08 PM
  #566
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Originally Posted by Kesler is Bestler View Post
There not much a goalie can do if the team in front of him folds like a cheap tent after 1 goal.
Ok that's true. Boston intimidated the Canucks in many ways which contributed to them folding like a cheap tent. And Thomas was there to answer what quality chances they had.

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12-26-2012, 08:09 PM
  #567
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I found the reply and it was actually a wrister not a back hand shot. Watch the video and try to explain to me why any NHL goalie not just luongo could not make this save. On top of all that think about what's on the line. Ill wait for your explanation why it's a good goal to let in.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10aZ80_-13k
as a nuck fan, when i watch that, all i think is 'why couldnt any of our players make a big play like Marchand. none of our shots were laser snipes like that, just weak floaters. Marchand was clearly better than any canuck skater in that series.

I dont see luongo sucking in that play, I see marchand being great. a perfect shot cannot be saved.

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12-26-2012, 08:36 PM
  #568
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Originally Posted by skywarp75 View Post
as a nuck fan, when i watch that, all i think is 'why couldnt any of our players make a big play like Marchand. none of our shots were laser snipes like that, just weak floaters. Marchand was clearly better than any canuck skater in that series.

I dont see luongo sucking in that play, I see marchand being great. a perfect shot cannot be saved.
Ok so it's a great shot and Marchand was a great playoff performer. Van did have some quality chances but Boston as a team and Thomas as an individual was in their head. Had luongo played better the rest of the team sees it and they play better. Watching goals like that doesn't always inspire your team to go out and get it back. My whole point of view is that out of all the negative things van went through injuries or whatever having him let bad ones in at a bad time was the biggest reason they lost. Whether those goals were the result of a bad play or coverage he needs to make those saves.

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12-27-2012, 10:54 AM
  #569
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Kadri left the game with headaches? Not even a throw-in anymore.

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12-27-2012, 11:20 AM
  #570
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Kadri left the game with headaches? Not even a throw-in anymore.
He never was a"throw in". Marlies are currently 1 point out of 1st overall while playing a bunch of games without Gardiner/Kadri.....guess our prospect pool isn't so bad after all.

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12-27-2012, 11:38 AM
  #571
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He never was a"throw in". Marlies are currently 1 point out of 1st overall while playing a bunch of games without Gardiner/Kadri.....guess our prospect pool isn't so bad after all.
Not a leafs fan but ill agree with you there. Hopefully kadri gets a real chance to stay in the NHL. Now that Wilson isn't there to tear his confidence into a million pieces he could show people what he can do. I'd say kessel from kadri and whoever is lucky enough to play with them would be a good line.

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12-27-2012, 12:19 PM
  #572
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Not a leafs fan but ill agree with you there. Hopefully kadri gets a real chance to stay in the NHL. Now that Wilson isn't there to tear his confidence into a million pieces he could show people what he can do. I'd say kessel from kadri and whoever is lucky enough to play with them would be a good line.
I'm probably one of the biggest negative Leaf fans toward Kadri....but even i'll say, the kid has been resiliant. He has put up with a pile of crap so far here and is showing he can play. My biggest knock has always been his lack of physical play, i've watched alot of Marlies games this year and he seems to be working hard to improve on that. Alot of others tag him as a greedy puck hog....i'm actually good with that. When you are that offensively gifted, i would hope you want the puck alot. That AND, like Kessel (who gets the same knock) last season, Kadri has more assists than goals which shows he can make plays as well.

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12-27-2012, 05:06 PM
  #573
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Are you saying that from Game 2, where Luongo allowed only 2 goals in a .933 sv% effort, to Game 3, where he allowed 8 goals in a .789 sv% effort, that Luongo was still great in both, but half of Vancouver's roster simultaneously stopped being good for one game? Are you saying that from Game 5, where Luongo had a 31 save shutout, to Game 6, where he was pulled after allowing 3 goals in the first 10 minutes, that he wasn't doing bad, but all of Vancouver's players had an off-game at the same time? That's nothing short of ludicrous.

What about in the season prior, where in the Chicago series he had a 3 game sv% stretch of .818 to .967 to .857?

The year before that, he had another 3 game stretch of .903 to .839 to .958.

There are too many examples of Luongo completely changing from an elite goalie to a below-average goalie, then back to elite again for it to possibly be anyone's fault but himself, unless Vancouver has a pre-game meeting every night to roll a die to see how hard they play.
Stop talking out of your ass. Using 3 game samples to claim "inconsistency" is disingenuous at best.
Quick's SV% in the last 3 games of the 2012 finals: .944 .895 .913
Thomas' SV% in the last 3 playoff games he played .926 .923 .875
Lundqvist's stats in the last 3 playoff games he played: .897 .750 .897

They must suck just as much as Luongo does, eh? Wildly inconsistent! Mentally fragile!
And I'm not even cherry picking their worst "inconsistent" stretch like you did, simply the last 3 playoff games they played in.


Last edited by Toxic0n: 12-27-2012 at 05:18 PM.
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12-27-2012, 05:25 PM
  #574
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Originally Posted by Toxic0n View Post
Stop talking out of your ass. Using 3 game samples to claim "inconsistency" is disingenuous at best.
Quick's SV% in the last 3 games of the 2012 finals: .944 .895 .913
Thomas' SV% in the last 3 playoff games he played .926 .923 .875
Lundqvist's stats in the last 3 playoff games he played: .897 .750 .897

They must suck just as much as Luongo does, eh? Wildly inconsistent! Mentally fragile!
And I'm not even cherry picking their worst "inconsistent" stretch like you did, simply the last 3 playoff games they played in.
this is exactly why Luongo haters get on my nerves. If they were to compare directly to other goalies, using the SAME criteria, Luongo always proves to be elite, not only elite, but one of the best of all times.

yes he hasnt won a cup, but that isnt his fault like the media and haters seem to claim. Thomas and Quick were great in their runs, but so was their TEAM. they played to their peak when it mattered, and the Canuck team wasnt even close to their peak when they neede to be. No matter how people try to justify it, the losses werent his fault, he was just one of 20 players that didnt get it done.

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12-27-2012, 06:45 PM
  #575
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Stop talking out of your ass. Using 3 game samples to claim "inconsistency" is disingenuous at best.
Quick's SV% in the last 3 games of the 2012 finals: .944 .895 .913
Thomas' SV% in the last 3 playoff games he played .926 .923 .875
Lundqvist's stats in the last 3 playoff games he played: .897 .750 .897

They must suck just as much as Luongo does, eh? Wildly inconsistent! Mentally fragile!
And I'm not even cherry picking their worst "inconsistent" stretch like you did, simply the last 3 playoff games they played in.
Well done. I wonder what miracle rebuttal he has in his back pocket for this one.

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