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Old
12-23-2012, 08:44 PM
  #226
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Originally Posted by Whitesnake View Post
This upcoming draft is almost solely the reason why I wish there's a season this year. It is absolutely unfair that every team might have the chance to get a top pick out of this draft. Even with 48 games, the best will be the best. Seeing Boston get, 'cause they are somewhat lucky, or any other top team get a top 5 pick or even a top 10 pick will be larceny.

On the other end.....we "deserve" another high end pick....
I agree, the system in 2005 was a joke, with no justification for an overall lottery. It was a gimmick to please disgruntled fans, nothing else.

I don't care that we got lucky with that draft, it was not fair in any way. And we will not get that lucky again, the realistic odds with one ball are a pick around 15-20.

Don't forget also that there is a slight chance the Oil get first overall pick again if they use the same system. In fact, they have the same chance as at least 20 other teams I believe. There should be NO chance if this, at all. I find it incredible that the NHL would even provide this chance. If the Oil won such a lottery, you'd have the most pissed off fans ever, throughout Canada, certainly. And It would call into question every achievement the Oilers made the next ten years. It's bad enough to suck badly three times and get first overall, which should not be allowed. It would be a travesty to then get a 4th first, or even a second or third overall, with a Disney draft system.

Molson had better lobby hard for a different system. The problem is, the Laffs would love the same system, so not only was the 2005 draft a joke, it has created a precedent whereby some very powerful owners will fight to retain it. Thanks Gary.

Further, and I know this is a bit paranoid, as the drop dead date gets closer, Teams like Toronto, who might get 3 balls, and teams like Boston, who would have no chance at a top 5 if they played, might just decide a chance at a number one overall would justify the loss of the remaining 20 home games this year only. Silly perhaps, but the temptation should not even be there.

I have said this before: Bettman HAS to clarify the 2013 draft system in case of season cancellation RIGHT NOW. In fact, he should have done this 2 months ago. He is now creating a possible conflict of interest among his owners, and if he is allowing any lobbying on the topic now, he should be removed instantly. And not one 'journalist' has picked up this problem yet, and queried the NHL on it, as far as I know.

But no, not a word. Bloody incompetents, on all sides, and in sports 'journalism.' It just amazes me.

Well done again NHL.


Last edited by bsl: 12-23-2012 at 08:53 PM.
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Old
12-23-2012, 09:36 PM
  #227
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Deal this pick for Teravainen? Picks are generally over rated on the draft table, we'll get maximum value and Habs wanted him badly last year
We don't even know where "this pick" is yet and there are a lot of players in this year's first round I would take over Teravainen.

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12-24-2012, 12:57 AM
  #228
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Molson had better lobby hard for a different system. The problem is, the Laffs would love the same system, so not only was the 2005 draft a joke, it has created a precedent whereby some very powerful owners will fight to retain it. Thanks Gary.
Why? Just because their odds are as good or better than everyone else doesn't make their odds good. It's still only a 6% chance at first overall, with no guarantees as to how far they slip.

A system that would take all the non-playoff teams from last year and perform a lottery (where each team has one ball) to determine the top 14 picks (the bottom 16 in a separate lottery) would give them a 7% chance at first overall with a guarantee of picking no later than 14. I doubt they'd rally against a system which not only improves their odds at drafting #1 but also eliminates much of the risk.

My preferred system, for both logical and biased reasons, would be to take the above a bit further. Have three lotteries that determine the top 10, middle 10 and bottom 10 (based off of last years draft order). IMO it more accurately represents the three tiers of teams in the NHL: the bottom feeders, the playoff contenders and the cup contenders.

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12-24-2012, 01:36 AM
  #229
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Saw Anthony Mantha play yesterday. Pretty intersting. Would obviously not pick him ahead of Erne, but if somehow we end up picking in the 2nd half of the 1st round, I'd be an interseting pick. Honestly, he's a player I'd HOPE to get in the 2nd round. But I don't know, somebody might really love him.

Speaking of other players... While he has flaws (and a really ugly stride), one has to like what Émile Poirier brings to the game. GREAT forechecker, extremely quick, scrappy and a consistent SH goal threat. Definitely a player I'd draft in the 3rd round. He actually make things happen on the ice. But boy, that stride is weird...
Totally Agreed.

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Old
12-24-2012, 04:36 AM
  #230
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Redline has Seth Jones #1, MacKinnon now 3rd, Drouin 2nd overall.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports...eport/1778197/

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Old
12-24-2012, 07:20 AM
  #231
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Bad teams lose 1 goal games, OT and shootouts. It is not bad luck, it is because they are bad teams.
The year before we won a ton of those...so the difference is minimal.

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12-24-2012, 10:31 AM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post
I agree, the system in 2005 was a joke, with no justification for an overall lottery. It was a gimmick to please disgruntled fans, nothing else.

I don't care that we got lucky with that draft, it was not fair in any way. And we will not get that lucky again, the realistic odds with one ball are a pick around 15-20.

Don't forget also that there is a slight chance the Oil get first overall pick again if they use the same system. In fact, they have the same chance as at least 20 other teams I believe. There should be NO chance if this, at all. I find it incredible that the NHL would even provide this chance. If the Oil won such a lottery, you'd have the most pissed off fans ever, throughout Canada, certainly. And It would call into question every achievement the Oilers made the next ten years. It's bad enough to suck badly three times and get first overall, which should not be allowed. It would be a travesty to then get a 4th first, or even a second or third overall, with a Disney draft system.

Molson had better lobby hard for a different system. The problem is, the Laffs would love the same system, so not only was the 2005 draft a joke, it has created a precedent whereby some very powerful owners will fight to retain it. Thanks Gary.

Further, and I know this is a bit paranoid, as the drop dead date gets closer, Teams like Toronto, who might get 3 balls, and teams like Boston, who would have no chance at a top 5 if they played, might just decide a chance at a number one overall would justify the loss of the remaining 20 home games this year only. Silly perhaps, but the temptation should not even be there.

I have said this before: Bettman HAS to clarify the 2013 draft system in case of season cancellation RIGHT NOW. In fact, he should have done this 2 months ago. He is now creating a possible conflict of interest among his owners, and if he is allowing any lobbying on the topic now, he should be removed instantly. And not one 'journalist' has picked up this problem yet, and queried the NHL on it, as far as I know.

But no, not a word. Bloody incompetents, on all sides, and in sports 'journalism.' It just amazes me.

Well done again NHL.
There will be some arbitrariness (and perceived unfairness in the results) in whatever draft formula they adopt after a cancelled season.

I don't see what would be an objectively fair system other than putting 30 balls in a bingo tosser. There is no telling how any team would have done this season. There are too many variables: UFA, prospect development, injuries, and the annual vagaries of performance generally. So I don't think the last season played is any kind of meaningful indicator of where a team should be placed in the draft order.

At the same time, it's clear that the lost season is producing effects. Even without any games played, organizations are going to be in different positions than they were after the last season played. Edmonton gets a season of free prospect development, but Anaheim loses a prime year of their core under contract, Detroit and San Jose just get that much older, and Calgary is looking at its franchise player as a UFA. How do you measure all that and then equalize it?

While I think the draft will be given a formula designed to address some structural issues and strategic interests and so on, I think a straight up lottery is the best way to go. As I see it, if the process is fair, then the outcome will be fair. If Edmonton or Pittsburgh get the 1st overall, then that's just good or bad luck, depending on your point of view, but fundamentally it would be fair, as I understand the term.

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Old
12-24-2012, 02:37 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Pine View Post
We deserve MacKinnon, Barkov, Jones, Drouin and Lindholm.

All of em.
This is the exact feeling I have when thinking justly,the Habs are the only team worthy of such distinction.

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12-26-2012, 07:32 AM
  #234
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Drouin is showing against strong competition that he is a strong candidate for #1. Will be interesting to see Jones in the WJHC also.

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12-26-2012, 09:31 AM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Drouin is showing against strong competition that he is a strong candidate for #1.
Yet people on the WJC board were acting today like he's not even shown enough to be a top 10 pick.

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12-26-2012, 09:59 AM
  #236
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Really impressed with Nagy for Slovakia. Next Halak?

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12-26-2012, 10:05 AM
  #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pine View Post
We deserve MacKinnon, Barkov, Jones, Drouin and Lindholm.

All of em.
Post of the year...whatever..we deserve them all!

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12-26-2012, 11:48 AM
  #238
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Drouin impresses me more and more whenever I see him play. His puck skills are ridiculous.

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12-26-2012, 04:34 PM
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Drouin is showing against strong competition that he is a strong candidate for #1. Will be interesting to see Jones in the WJHC also.
Lindholm looked good today too. There's so many players in this draft who would have went first last year.

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12-26-2012, 04:56 PM
  #240
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With Nathan MacKinnon playing on the 4th line for Team Canada and with Jonathan Droin playing so well, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a flip flop in the draft rankings later with Droin potentially taking the top spot which for me works out well.

I see alot of people wanting a top scoring winger to be drafted and I can understand that to a degree, with Alexander Galchenyuk already drafted, but is that enough? With this draft deep in franchise centerman, can we really ignore Nathan Mackinnon, Alexander Barkov, Sean Monahan and Elias Linholm, all big forwards with great upside with each of them. Is Lars Eller, Tomas Plekanac or David Desharnais enough?

With these 4 centerman in this deep draft, I think its pretty mandatory to pick one of these guys up. With the picks that Montreal has, they can feasably move up if they desired, whether they do or not will be up to Marc Bergevin. I'm hoping he does look into grabbing one of these guys, because with this draft, plenty of good picks will fall down to the second round and this 2013 draft will only help solidify the group of players that were picked up in the 2012 draft to make a potential huge draft for both the 2012 and 2013 years and give Montreal what they were missing for a long time. A strong prospect base to build a Stanley Cup contender.

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12-26-2012, 06:31 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Forgedias View Post
With Nathan MacKinnon playing on the 4th line for Team Canada and with Jonathan Droin playing so well, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a flip flop in the draft rankings later with Droin potentially taking the top spot which for me works out well.

I see alot of people wanting a top scoring winger to be drafted and I can understand that to a degree, with Alexander Galchenyuk already drafted, but is that enough? With this draft deep in franchise centerman, can we really ignore Nathan Mackinnon, Alexander Barkov, Sean Monahan and Elias Linholm, all big forwards with great upside with each of them. Is Lars Eller, Tomas Plekanac or David Desharnais enough?

With these 4 centerman in this deep draft, I think its pretty mandatory to pick one of these guys up. With the picks that Montreal has, they can feasably move up if they desired, whether they do or not will be up to Marc Bergevin. I'm hoping he does look into grabbing one of these guys, because with this draft, plenty of good picks will fall down to the second round and this 2013 draft will only help solidify the group of players that were picked up in the 2012 draft to make a potential huge draft for both the 2012 and 2013 years and give Montreal what they were missing for a long time. A strong prospect base to build a Stanley Cup contender.
BPA always

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12-26-2012, 06:34 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by Forgedias View Post
With Nathan MacKinnon playing on the 4th line for Team Canada and with Jonathan Droin playing so well, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a flip flop in the draft rankings later with Droin potentially taking the top spot which for me works out well.

I see alot of people wanting a top scoring winger to be drafted and I can understand that to a degree, with Alexander Galchenyuk already drafted, but is that enough? With this draft deep in franchise centerman, can we really ignore Nathan Mackinnon, Alexander Barkov, Sean Monahan and Elias Linholm, all big forwards with great upside with each of them. Is Lars Eller, Tomas Plekanac or David Desharnais enough?

With these 4 centerman in this deep draft, I think its pretty mandatory to pick one of these guys up. With the picks that Montreal has, they can feasably move up if they desired, whether they do or not will be up to Marc Bergevin. I'm hoping he does look into grabbing one of these guys, because with this draft, plenty of good picks will fall down to the second round and this 2013 draft will only help solidify the group of players that were picked up in the 2012 draft to make a potential huge draft for both the 2012 and 2013 years and give Montreal what they were missing for a long time. A strong prospect base to build a Stanley Cup contender.
BPA for me. Maybe weigh some organization positional preference (for example, a team that always slightly prefers centers to wingers because they can switch to the other position more easily), but I'd completely ignore the current strengths and weaknesses of players in the organization. There are too many moving parts to predict what the depth chart will look like in 2016.

About your first paragraph: I think it's worth mentioning that MacKinnon is 5 months younger than Drouin. So even if Drouin is the more impressive player at this tournament, it doesn't necessarily mean he is passing MacKinnon as a prospect, or that Hockey Canada sees the situation that way.

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12-26-2012, 07:20 PM
  #243
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Take the player you want to build your team around or that best suits the team you want to be, unless the difference in talent is sizeable.

Does it really matter in the long run if one player scores a few more points per season or is a small amount better then the player you selected if he doesn't suit your team.

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12-26-2012, 08:55 PM
  #244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
About your first paragraph: I think it's worth mentioning that MacKinnon is 5 months younger than Drouin. So even if Drouin is the more impressive player at this tournament, it doesn't necessarily mean he is passing MacKinnon as a prospect, or that Hockey Canada sees the situation that way.
And a lot of it is just circumstances with how the roster is in this tournament.

Canada is very deep in terms of 19 year olds at center and in terms of RH shots this year. Not a lot of room for a younger MacKinnon to play an offensive role at either C or RW, it's just a number's game.

Not nearly as deep on the LW though, which is why Drouin has rocketed up the depth chart.

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12-27-2012, 08:08 AM
  #245
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
And a lot of it is just circumstances with how the roster is in this tournament.

Canada is very deep in terms of 19 year olds at center and in terms of RH shots this year. Not a lot of room for a younger MacKinnon to play an offensive role at either C or RW, it's just a number's game.

Not nearly as deep on the LW though, which is why Drouin has rocketed up the depth chart.
I think in Spott's mind Drouin's the best of the two, that's why he uses him on PP, where wingers often play on their off-side.

More and more scouts hesitate to name the better player between the two Halifax studs. Besides skating ,physical strength and shot (read the previous aspect), Mack is imo, below Drouin in every other hockey aspect(vision, hands, hockey sense).

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12-27-2012, 08:19 AM
  #246
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Lindholm looked good today too. There's so many players in this draft who would have went first last year.
There are not many players in this draft better than Yakupov. Galchenyuk is showing that he could have potentially gone #1 if he was healthy, he is as good as anybody this year except maybe Jones.

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12-27-2012, 08:20 AM
  #247
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And a lot of it is just circumstances with how the roster is in this tournament.

Canada is very deep in terms of 19 year olds at center and in terms of RH shots this year. Not a lot of room for a younger MacKinnon to play an offensive role at either C or RW, it's just a number's game.

Not nearly as deep on the LW though, which is why Drouin has rocketed up the depth chart.
Drouin's hockey sense and vision also gives him an edge against stronger competition. MacKinnon is more of a guy that relies on individual skills(speed, shot, 1 on 1 skills like Gaborik).

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12-27-2012, 10:45 AM
  #248
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With Nathan MacKinnon playing on the 4th line for Team Canada and with Jonathan Droin playing so well, I wouldn't be surprised if we see a flip flop in the draft rankings later with Droin potentially taking the top spot which for me works out well.

I see alot of people wanting a top scoring winger to be drafted and I can understand that to a degree, with Alexander Galchenyuk already drafted, but is that enough? With this draft deep in franchise centerman, can we really ignore Nathan Mackinnon, Alexander Barkov, Sean Monahan and Elias Linholm, all big forwards with great upside with each of them. Is Lars Eller, Tomas Plekanac or David Desharnais enough?

With these 4 centerman in this deep draft, I think its pretty mandatory to pick one of these guys up. With the picks that Montreal has, they can feasably move up if they desired, whether they do or not will be up to Marc Bergevin. I'm hoping he does look into grabbing one of these guys, because with this draft, plenty of good picks will fall down to the second round and this 2013 draft will only help solidify the group of players that were picked up in the 2012 draft to make a potential huge draft for both the 2012 and 2013 years and give Montreal what they were missing for a long time. A strong prospect base to build a Stanley Cup contender.
World Junior Championships are a bad judge to a NHL career. Most players who look great in WJC don't translate to their NHL career. Many aspects of the NHL game are not used in these short tournys. Ryan McDonough had a terrible WJC, most on this board wanted him traded, but he has gone onto a promising career. While Sam Gagner had a great WJC, at time compared to future Denis Savard, has not lived up to expectations.

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12-27-2012, 11:04 AM
  #249
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Did anyone draft Mike Künzle last year? I can't find him. Watched the Swiss game this morning and he looked very good. He's freaking huge too. Turned 19-years-old yesterday.

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12-27-2012, 11:29 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
And a lot of it is just circumstances with how the roster is in this tournament.

Canada is very deep in terms of 19 year olds at center and in terms of RH shots this year. Not a lot of room for a younger MacKinnon to play an offensive role at either C or RW, it's just a number's game.

Not nearly as deep on the LW though, which is why Drouin has rocketed up the depth chart.
Very well said. Drouin is very impressive and may well put up more points in this tourney than MacKinnon, but anyone who ranks him above Mack for that reason only is making a mistake IMO.

But you really can't say enough about the case Drouin has made for himself this year. He just keeps impressing everywhere he plays.

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