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Red Wings, reportedly, haven't paid Detroit its portion of TV rights...

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Old
12-26-2012, 08:51 PM
  #1
dtones520
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Red Wings, reportedly, haven't paid Detroit its portion of TV rights...

Sorry if this had been posted here, I didn't see it...

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index....l#incart_river

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At a time when the Detroit Red Wings are seeking to use taxpayer money to help fund a new arena, a Detroit News story claims that Olympia Entertainment owes the city millions of dollars for cable television rights.

Olympia Entertainment – headed by Red Wings and Tigers owner Mike Ilitch – hasn't paid the city its share of cable TV rights for more than 30 years while also failing to pay the city things like rent, concessions, revenue and property taxes since its lease with Joe Louis Arena expired in 2010, according to the News story.

Under the terms of its lease with Joe Louis and Cobo arenas, Olympia Entertainment must pay the city 25 percent of all cable TV rights.

The property taxes owed are $2.1 million.

The News reported that the cable TV debt could be as much as $70 million although a national sports economist says it could be much lower.

"The Ilitches are a multibillion-dollar operation, and they are inside a city that is sinking," City Councilman Kwame Kenyatta told The News. "(Mike Ilitch), I am sure, knows about this and should be forthcoming to help the city. Help us by writing a check, not by negotiating a new lease."

The Red Wings, who want to replace Joe Louis Arena with a new $650-million multipurpose facility, had no comment.

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12-27-2012, 12:51 AM
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If you don't have an agreement in writing why pay it? That seems like simple logic. Why pay the city if they haven't done the simple paper work to get paid? If the city has followed up fine, but if they have dropped the ball why help out if you're the Wings?

This sounds like more of a city billing problem. The terms expired and they didn't do a very good job of following up. Assuming the rules apply without actually talking about what is going on is a mistake by the city.

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12-27-2012, 09:44 AM
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This is a PURE example of how poorly run and irresponsible The City of Detroit is with their fiscal responsibility. The City of Detroit, which happens to own Joe Louis Arena, has claimed that the Detroit Red Wings and Mike Illitch have
Quote:
failed to pay the city for 30 + years on things like rent, concessions, revenue and property taxes since its lease with Joe Louis Arena expired in 2010, according to the News story.
Put two and two together. If the City of Detroit claimed to be "CASH" strapped for the past 5-6-7 years, wouldn't the city have done more to come after an entity like the Red Wings and Olympia Entertainment and actually have them pay? Since the Joe is owned and operated by the CITY , I would think the NHL offices would have been notified about this. The City of Detroit, also since they OWN the building, had EVERY opportunity to shut the Wings out of the Joe, until the debt was paid. Imagine, going to a game, and hearing an hour before puck drop, that the FBI and the City has shut down the Joe, due to non-payment of rent, concessions, cable rights for 30+ years??!?!?!?!

If it were me, and my business did NOT pay the City for 30 + years, I would be in jail. So, again, the major question which surrounds this entire report is, whose to blame?

You have to blame the City of Detroit. They are financially screwed. They have no bailout. They have put themselves into this position and instead of doing something about it, they again, go about their fiscal duties in all the wrong ways. They are attacking a corporation that has been a staple for the City. Who in the right mind would assume Olympia Entertainment owes this much money?

Also, The City of Detroit had basically passed on all kinds of shared revenue if Ilitch agreed to keep the Wings at JLA and not move to the suburbs. (Olympia would be demolished, city would maintain ownership of JLA, etc). I roll my eyes at the thought of the city trying to collect 30 years worth of back-owed whatever all at once.

Next point: Kwame Kilpatrick. A guy who was and always will be notorious for scams involving money. If Illitch/DRW/Olympia "owed" this much to the city, you bet your ass $$$$$$$$$$$$ Kwame would have gone for this money. He would have made sure the BIGGEST corp. in his city, paid their debt, which leads me back to my first point. The City of Detroit is and always will be irresponsible with how they run their city.

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The City of Detroit has just lost ALL my future business, for such idiotic and ridiculous claims as this.


Last edited by Fugu: 12-27-2012 at 02:51 PM. Reason: let's not make it out about that
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12-27-2012, 10:29 AM
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Move the team to windsor and let the mayor sulk.

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12-27-2012, 11:17 AM
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Detroit is where the worst politicians go to make money. It's why Detroit will never be fixed until the state of Michigan takes it over and gets rid of the scum. Even that might not be enough. You might need some agency outside of Michigan to clean it up. That's how bad it is.

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12-27-2012, 11:46 AM
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It doesn't surprise me that a disorganized and dysfunctional city like Detroit would overlook billing. Even if the figure owed to Detroit was $72M, that's really not a lot of money to lose for the city over the course of 30 years.

That said, if Ilitch owes it, he should pay it.

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Last edited by Fugu: 12-27-2012 at 02:53 PM. Reason: qep
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12-27-2012, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Detroit is where the worst politicians go to make money. It's why Detroit will never be fixed until the state of Michigan takes it over and gets rid of the scum. Even that might not be enough. You might need some agency outside of Michigan to clean it up. That's how bad it is.
This is pure Bull Crap.

Detroit is a city with infrastructure built for perhaps the most robust manufacturing economy in the world.
The population is less than 700,000 now. The manufacturing is mostly gone. Yet a city with tiny property values is supposed to somehow fix itself?

Detroit is the poster city for a cut-and-run society.

Crooked politicians are a symptom of Detroit's problems. The cause is something much more profound.

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12-27-2012, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
This is pure Bull Crap.

Detroit is a city with infrastructure built for perhaps the most robust manufacturing economy in the world.
The population is less than 700,000 now. The manufacturing is mostly gone. Yet a city with tiny property values is supposed to somehow fix itself?

Detroit is the poster city for a cut-and-run society.

Crooked politicians are a symptom of Detroit's problems. The cause is something much more profound.
Well lets hear your the more profound cause for the state of Detroit?

Cooked politicians are the root of the problem. They line their pockets and hang Detroit out to dry. The city is like a free ATM to those men and women.

There is no over-site so politicians keep on abusing the system, and only the most egregious offenses are actually reported. (See Kwame)

Detroit is a problem that everybody ignores because the amount of work it would take to fix it would take far too much time and burn too many bridges. It's sad, but that's the society we live in. Personal responsibility does not exist anymore. If you really care about Detroit and try to fix it, how many bribes do you need to pay to get it done? It's hopeless.

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12-27-2012, 12:32 PM
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Honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. How much money do you think these crooked politicians are bilking the city of?
Much more than the $72M Ilitch owes the city?

Racism. White flight. Cut-and-Run capitalism. Globalization of manufacturing and inability to compete with automakers with no pensions and retiree benefits to pay. In ability to compete with third world world wages and "environmental laws."
Major city sees its population reduced to 33 percent of its original size while paying to maintain the infrastructure of 100 percent of the city.

Lack of jobs. Lack of hope. Lack of leadership. Lack of "reality" role models.

In the grand scheme of the problem that is Detroit, thug politicians like Kilpatrick are bit players.

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12-27-2012, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. How much money do you think these crooked politicians are bilking the city of?
Much more than the $72M Ilitch owes the city?

Racism. White flight. Cut-and-Run capitalism. Globalization of manufacturing and inability to compete with automakers with no pensions and retiree benefits to pay. In ability to compete with third world world wages and "environmental laws."
Major city sees its population reduced to 33 percent of its original size while paying to maintain the infrastructure of 100 percent of the city.

Lack of jobs. Lack of hope. Lack of leadership. Lack of "reality" role models.

In the grand scheme of the problem that is Detroit, thug politicians like Kilpatrick are bit players.
I dont disagree that those problems have brought Detroit to it's current state, but the main problem holding it back now is the politicians who dont want to kill their cash cow. The politicians have to take care of the friends who helped them get elected, etc, etc.

"Trickle down scumbaggery"

It's all backroom deals that make it impossible to do the right thing.

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12-27-2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Well lets hear your the more profound cause for the state of Detroit?
Here ya go.

http://www.amazon.com/Origins-Urban-.../dp/0691121869

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12-27-2012, 06:30 PM
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I posted this on the business board too:

I don't think the Red Wings owe the city any money for cable rights.

Here's a statement from Olympia:

Quote:
"It is our view that the provision in the Lease applies to Olympia events and revenue derived by Olympia from the sale of such rights," Robert Carr wrote in a letter to Monroe.
"Olympia has neither sold any such rights nor has it received any money for the sale of such rights."

How is that possible? Olympia is an affiliate company, under Ilitch Holdings-- as are the Red Wings. Any TV money is contracted and paid to the Wings directly.

Olympia Entertainment:
Quote:
Located in the heart of Detroit, one of the leading entertainment markets in the country, Olympia Entertainment is one of the industry's most diverse sports and entertainment companies, owning and operating Detroit's fabulous Fox Theatre, as well as booking and operating Joe Louis Arena, Comerica Park and Cobo Arena. A division of Ilitch Holdings, Olympia Entertainment is owned by Detroit entrepreneurs Mike and Marian Ilitch and is affiliated with the Detroit Red Wings, Detroit Tigers, Little Caesars Pizza, Blue Line Distributing, Little Caesars Pizza Kits and Uptown Entertainment. Visit us at www.olympiaentertainment.com.
The Red Wings are owned by Mike & Marian Ilitch; and furthermore are NOT managed by OE.

The Ilitches own Ilitch Holdings Inc. (son, Christopher Ilitch, is the President & CEO).

Olympia Entertainment history:
Quote:
In 1982, Michael and Marian Ilitch purchased the Olympia Stadium Corporation, the management company for Olympia Stadium and renamed it Olympia Arenas, Inc. The newly purchased business was responsible for managing events at Joe Louis Arena (which had been completed in 1979 as the home of the Detroit Red Wings), Cobo Arena and the Glens Falls Civic Center. That same year, Mr. and Mrs. Ilitch purchased the Detroit Red Wings.
In 1987, the Ilitches purchased Detroit’s iconic Fox Theatre (built in 1928) and renovated the 4,800+ seat venue, saving 80% of the original surfaces. In 1988, the Ilitches re-opened the Fox as the hub of the Foxtown Entertainment District and the building now houses the offices of Olympia Entertainment and Little Caesars Pizza. In 1989, the National Parks Service designated the Fox Theatre as a National Landmark.
The Olympia Stadium Corporation was renamed Olympia Entertainment in 1996 to reflect the management company’s expanded operations and venues.

Ilitch Holdings Inc, per Wiki:

Quote:
Ilitch Holdings, Inc. was established in 1999 to provide all companies owned by Mike and Marian Ilitch with professional and technical services.
From the official site:
Quote:
Ilitch Holdings, Inc.
Yesterday, Today, Tomorrow

Ilitch Holdings, Inc., was established in 1999 to provide the companies owned by Michael and/or Marian Ilitch with professional services. The Ilitch companies represent leading brands in the food, sports and entertainment industries and include Little Caesars, the Detroit Red Wings, the Detroit Tigers, Olympia Entertainment, Uptown Entertainment, Blue Line Foodservice Distribution, Champion Foods, Little Caesars Pizza Kit Fundraising Program, Olympia Development and MotorCity Casino Hotel.
Ilitch Holdings is comprised of skilled professionals providing expertise in the areas of finance, human resources, communications, legal, architecture, government relations, and information technology. Ultimately, we contribute to the success of Ilitch companies by providing streamlined processes and procedures that result in improved productivity, increased efficiencies and lower costs.
It seems fairly clear to me that Olympia Entertainment and the Red Wings are separate Ilitch companies. Any cable money the Wings receive is negotiated by the Wings, and not by Olympia Entertainment. OE is basically the arena operator in this case (among its other activities), but they are not involved in the management of the Wings. Ken Holland reports directly to Mike Ilitch, but as the health of the senior Ilitch has failed, more of the subsidiary management has fallen to their son, Christopher Ilitch, who is head of Ilitch Holdings.

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12-27-2012, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Honestly, you have no idea what you're talking about. How much money do you think these crooked politicians are bilking the city of?
Much more than the $72M Ilitch owes the city?

Racism. White flight. Cut-and-Run capitalism. Globalization of manufacturing and inability to compete with automakers with no pensions and retiree benefits to pay. In ability to compete with third world world wages and "environmental laws."
Major city sees its population reduced to 33 percent of its original size while paying to maintain the infrastructure of 100 percent of the city.

Lack of jobs. Lack of hope. Lack of leadership. Lack of "reality" role models.

In the grand scheme of the problem that is Detroit, thug politicians like Kilpatrick are bit players.
you mention everyone but the main culprits the unions that weigh so heavily on the auto industry that they couldn't compete, retirement benefits that tied the industry hands and sub standard work.......blame the third world all you want when you can get a toyota that lasts for decades, a kia that has a decade long warranty or a US made K car that didn't make its 5th birthday all at the same price because of such high wages and benefits, what do you expect.......and before you say how much that toyota cost subtract the import excise tax we lobbed on them in the eighties instead of fixing the problems with the auto industry........racism at its best,please

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12-27-2012, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by yankeeking View Post
you mention everyone but the main culprits the unions that weigh so heavily on the auto industry that they couldn't compete, retirement benefits that tied the industry hands and sub standard work.......blame the third world all you want when you can get a toyota that lasts for decades, a kia that has a decade long warranty or a US made K car that didn't make its 5th birthday all at the same price because of such high wages and benefits, what do you expect.......and before you say how much that toyota cost subtract the import excise tax we lobbed on them in the eighties instead of fixing the problems with the auto industry........racism at its best,please
I don't by anti-worker... race-to-the-bottom BS.

Do I think unions priced themselves out of the market? No. They priced themselves out of sympathy of the average American. They should have spent less money trying to win generous raises every contract and more money trying to organize the service sector.

Unions that look after their own backpocket first are not good for anyone. But they're not the "culprit."

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12-27-2012, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by yankeeking View Post
you mention everyone but the main culprits the unions that weigh so heavily on the auto industry that they couldn't compete, retirement benefits that tied the industry hands and sub standard work.......blame the third world all you want when you can get a toyota that lasts for decades, a kia that has a decade long warranty or a US made K car that didn't make its 5th birthday all at the same price because of such high wages and benefits, what do you expect.......and before you say how much that toyota cost subtract the import excise tax we lobbed on them in the eighties instead of fixing the problems with the auto industry........racism at its best,please
Yea, the solution is to get families to work for 3rd world wages in a dc economy! The workers shouldnt have such things like rights or a future. Just work till they die!



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12-27-2012, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeeking View Post
you mention everyone but the main culprits the unions that weigh so heavily on the auto industry that they couldn't compete, retirement benefits that tied the industry hands and sub standard work.......blame the third world all you want when you can get a toyota that lasts for decades, a kia that has a decade long warranty or a US made K car that didn't make its 5th birthday all at the same price because of such high wages and benefits, what do you expect.......and before you say how much that toyota cost subtract the import excise tax we lobbed on them in the eighties instead of fixing the problems with the auto industry........racism at its best,please

Oh, it goes far, far beyond unions. There's good old-fashioned corporate greed, for starters. A lot of countries who are competitors to US companies have socialized medicine, for example, so their employers aren't burdened with sky-rocketing health care costs, their pharm companies don't make double digit profits, and their doctors have 'normal' wages. They breathe polluted air, probably drink polluted water and maybe walk to work with toxic waste laying around.

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12-27-2012, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yankeeking View Post
you mention everyone but the main culprits the unions that weigh so heavily on the auto industry that they couldn't compete, retirement benefits that tied the industry hands and sub standard work.......blame the third world all you want when you can get a toyota that lasts for decades, a kia that has a decade long warranty or a US made K car that didn't make its 5th birthday all at the same price because of such high wages and benefits, what do you expect.......and before you say how much that toyota cost subtract the import excise tax we lobbed on them in the eighties instead of fixing the problems with the auto industry........racism at its best,please
Quality was certainly an issue for a while, but i defy you to come up with one vehicle that the UAW designed and engineered.

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12-27-2012, 08:50 PM
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I don't by anti-worker... race-to-the-bottom BS.

Do I think unions priced themselves out of the market? No. They priced themselves out of sympathy of the average American. They should have spent less money trying to win generous raises every contract and more money trying to organize the service sector.

Unions that look after their own backpocket first are not good for anyone. But they're not the "culprit."
You don't buy the anti-worker bs but believe auto workers won generous raises?

Prior to the last round of negotiations the UAW hadn't signed a non-concessionary contract in 25 years. Two decades of taking less.

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12-27-2012, 09:06 PM
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You don't buy the anti-worker bs but believe auto workers won generous raises?

Prior to the last round of negotiations the UAW hadn't signed a non-concessionary contract in 25 years. Two decades of taking less.
I am a UAW supporter, but their wages so far outpaced other people who work for a living that the rest of the American working class no longer identified with autoworkers.

Even worse, the UAW agreed to two-tiered workforces will probably end up as the death certificate of the union.

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12-27-2012, 09:57 PM
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I am a UAW supporter, but their wages so far outpaced other people who work for a living that the rest of the American working class no longer identified with autoworkers.
If union wages outpace those of other workers it is because it is the union's job to see that wages rise commensurate with profits and productivity. The majority of the US workforce has not benefitted from the tremendous productivity gains in the past three decades. Real wages are stagnant. If the minimum wage kept pace with productivity from 1968 to 2012 it would be $21.72 per hour. Which, coincidentally, is roughly the starting wage of an automobile assembly line worker. Why is any of this a union problem and not an inequality problem?

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12-27-2012, 11:16 PM
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If union wages outpace those of other workers it is because it is the union's job to see that wages rise commensurate with profits and productivity. The majority of the US workforce has not benefitted from the tremendous productivity gains in the past three decades. Real wages are stagnant. If the minimum wage kept pace with productivity from 1968 to 2012 it would be $21.72 per hour. Which, coincidentally, is roughly the starting wage of an automobile assembly line worker. Why is any of this a union problem and not an inequality problem?
But it is also the unions job to be better organizers in other industries and share the wealth.

There is only so much the automakers can make. Once they own a modest house in the burbs, do you think they're going to fight company goons at the underpass?

Nope. The union movement got fat and sloppy and hasn't been at their fighting weight for years. They needed to be fighting for Wal-Mart workers and restaurant workers and Target workers. And had unions been bringing these workers along, they would have had some support when the Big 3 took a hatchet to their contracts.

Unions are a tricky business in a society as obsessed with the individual as America is.

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