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[NYM/TOR] Dickey/Thole/Nickeas for D'Arnaud/Syndergaard/Buck/Becerra (done deal)

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12-26-2012, 04:51 PM
  #526
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Originally Posted by Everlong View Post
There was an online chat with Keith Law where he said he projects the Jays prospect pool to rank in the 15-20 range. Which makes sense. If you can have a competitive major league team and still keep a top 20 prospect group, I'll take that every day of the week and twice on tuesday.



Jays lost Bautista, Lawrie, Arencibia for a considerable amount of time. Rasmus spent some time on the DL aswell. That's just positional players.


It's not really comparable.
Arencibia addition by subtraction.

Lawrie and Bautista, understandable but many other teams had to face big time injuries as well. It can't be an excuse.

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12-26-2012, 05:14 PM
  #527
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But none more impactful than the Jays
i hate to break up this pity party but the red sox never had their full lineup once in 2012.

ellsbury, pedroia, gonzalez, crawford and david ortiz didn't play in one single game together all season.

they lost almost 1500 man games to injury, the most since the stat has been kept track of in 1987.

while i respect that the jays lost some good young players, the red sox replacements for ellsbury were marlon byrd, scott podsednik, ryan sweeney and jason repko. crawford was replaced by daniel nava and darnell mcdonald. adrian gonzalez had to play right field because they literally had nobody else to do so when cody ross broke his foot.

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12-26-2012, 05:58 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by topshelfie View Post
But none more impactful than the Jays.

LoL. The Jays had nothing on the Red Sox last year, but thats besides the point. The fact remains that the Jays were horrible last year, and to compensate in moves of desperation, they accumulated a bunch of, imo, of course, "meh" type players who have just as questionable histories as the same, injury ravaged team that stunk up the east last year.

This is a bad team as it stands right now. Are they better then last years embarrassment? Of course, they couldnt be worse. But a gimmick pitcher, a always injured middle of the rotation guy, a diva shortstop, a drugger, and a average rotation guy sure doesnt even scream better then the Red Sox to me.

I dont think anybody in the east is shaking in their boots over the Jays.

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12-26-2012, 06:21 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
This is a bad team as it stands right now. Are they better then last years embarrassment? Of course, they couldnt be worse. But a gimmick pitcher, a always injured middle of the rotation guy, a diva shortstop, a drugger, and a average rotation guy sure doesnt even scream better then the Red Sox to me.

I dont think anybody in the east is shaking in their boots over the Jays.
I needed a good laugh, thanks. I can always count on ya.

While I disagree with Robert and Tortorella, I can atleast respect their opinion.

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12-26-2012, 06:29 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
LoL. The Jays had nothing on the Red Sox last year, but thats besides the point. The fact remains that the Jays were horrible last year, and to compensate in moves of desperation, they accumulated a bunch of, imo, of course, "meh" type players who have just as questionable histories as the same, injury ravaged team that stunk up the east last year.

This is a bad team as it stands right now. Are they better then last years embarrassment? Of course, they couldnt be worse. But a gimmick pitcher, a always injured middle of the rotation guy, a diva shortstop, a drugger, and a average rotation guy sure doesnt even scream better then the Red Sox to me.

I dont think anybody in the east is shaking in their boots over the Jays.
Actually if you check the standings we finished ahead of the Red Sox last year so we do have something on them.

Basically you're saying the Jays were horrible because they suck, not injuries and the Red Sox were horrible because of injuries? Gotcha.

The Red Sox finished near top of the league in AL runs for and near last in runs against while most of their pitching remained healthy compared to the Blue Jays.

The Jays had 10 pitchers on the DL at one point , as well as the positioned players mentioned. So while I acknowledge that the Red Sox had injuries, it wasn't the main reason they finished lower than they were expected.


Last edited by topshelfie: 12-26-2012 at 06:36 PM.
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12-26-2012, 06:38 PM
  #531
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it kind of was, considering the talent that was either on the dl or playing through injuries.

while the red sox scored runs, they lost a lot of defensive value with ellsbury and crawford being out, which could have propped up the rotation.

lackey and matsuzaka missed time. that's what, 300+ innings of at least slightly above average pitching that was filled in by aaron cook and franklin morales.

like i said, i appreciate that the blue jays lost talent to injury. but they certainly didn't lose the extent of talent that the red sox did. having a manager with slight retardation didn't help the red sox at all but neither did losing above average players at pretty much every premier offensive position and losing all of the depth in the rotation and bullpen.

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12-26-2012, 06:41 PM
  #532
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and the red sox were 3rd worst in era, runs allowed, their starter era was over 5, the bullpen was almost 4.

they got completely railed by injuries.

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12-26-2012, 07:20 PM
  #533
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Cook and Morales were probably better than Matsuzka and Lackey would have been(-0.1 War and -2.1 War accordingly in 2011) , they were also hurt in 2011 and the Sox had plenty of time to replace them via free agency or trade.

You couldn't really expect anything great from Dice K or Lackey anymore, it was time to move on from them last year. Actually, Dice K has been less than mediocre since 2008 now.

Their highest WAR pitcher in 2012 was 0.7 WAR whereas in 2011 they had several above 2. So I still stand by the Red Sox pitching letting them down last year moreso than injuries.


Last edited by topshelfie: 12-26-2012 at 07:30 PM.
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12-27-2012, 01:34 AM
  #534
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Arencibia addition by subtraction.

Lawrie and Bautista, understandable but many other teams had to face big time injuries as well. It can't be an excuse.
How is starting jeff mathis everyday addition by subtraction.... And I think losing half your batting order, including a top 5 player in the game, 3/5ths of your rotation AND your closer is reason to say the jays were better than the record shows

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12-27-2012, 05:43 AM
  #535
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Jays fans taking it personally that casual observers here are not just giving them the east title when power houses such as the Yankees are still in the division.

I think some site puts the Jays at 16 WAR with all the moves they made over last year. Thats still not enough to beat the Yankees or the Rays, and with all the moves the Red Sox have made, I would put them above the Jays also, not even mentioning the O's who will have full years from Machado and Bundy.

You have to remeber, the Jays were a horrible team last year, closer to the Royals then the elite of the east. Sure, they had injuries, but they wernt the only team that did. Couple the fact that some of the players they recieved are perputually injury prone, you have to take into consideration exactly what they are....a last place team.

The division is too stacked, and throw out the fact that the Jays now have one of the worst minor league systems in baseball, you have to think what specificly can they aquire come the trading deadline.

In my opinion, these moves are just not enough.
Yet Yankee fans won't admit they aren't a powerhouse and continue to argue the most improved team will be in last place. Jays had a much much better offseason than Red Sox, had more key injuries last year and finished ahead of them but somehow Red Sox will finish ahead

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12-27-2012, 05:45 AM
  #536
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Injuries happen to each and every team. To pigeon hole injures as the reason the Jays stunk up the east last year is nothing more then an excuse. The Yankees had a bevy of injuries last year and still produced. Every injury to a player who is counted on is impactful.

Now, throw in the fact that some of the players aquired in the big off season for the Jays are similar to the often injured players that reside on the already questionable roster, and you have a questionable team with a bunch of concerns instead of a team that can challenge the mighty Yankees who, obviously, didnt have to do too much this off season to actually be considered a contender...which, the Jays obviously had to do to keep up in a division thats still a couple steps ahead.

The Yankees gave Youk a huge one year contract to play half a year, thats the richer getting richer.

I take BBA's word over anybody, and if they say the Jays farm system is one of the worst, I take that over anybody elses opinion, but thats just me.
Youk is terrible though and will get hurt before Arod is back..

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12-27-2012, 05:46 AM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Tortorella View Post
Arencibia addition by subtraction.

Lawrie and Bautista, understandable but many other teams had to face big time injuries as well. It can't be an excuse.
Did they lose 3 starters in a 4 game stretch?

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12-27-2012, 05:51 AM
  #538
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Originally Posted by Martini View Post
LoL. The Jays had nothing on the Red Sox last year, but thats besides the point. The fact remains that the Jays were horrible last year, and to compensate in moves of desperation, they accumulated a bunch of, imo, of course, "meh" type players who have just as questionable histories as the same, injury ravaged team that stunk up the east last year.

This is a bad team as it stands right now. Are they better then last years embarrassment? Of course, they couldnt be worse. But a gimmick pitcher, a always injured middle of the rotation guy, a diva shortstop, a drugger, and a average rotation guy sure doesnt even scream better then the Red Sox to me.

I dont think anybody in the east is shaking in their boots over the Jays.
Funny part is, the experts all disagree with you and most say Jays are favorites in the East. There was a poll with 20 scouts, 13 said Jays win the East. Vegas has them at best odds for the WS.

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12-27-2012, 05:53 AM
  #539
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Originally Posted by robert terwilliger View Post
and the red sox were 3rd worst in era, runs allowed, their starter era was over 5, the bullpen was almost 4.

they got completely railed by injuries.
So they were bad because of pitching, not injuries..?

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12-27-2012, 07:02 AM
  #540
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I personally don't care if the Jays get any credit for next season, but if you think they're the worst team in the east your opinion is just as bad as the Jays fans expecting a championship.

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12-27-2012, 07:23 AM
  #541
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I personally don't care if the Jays get any credit for next season, but if you think they're the worst team in the east your opinion is just as bad as the Jays fans expecting a championship.
This.

Most of us aren't saying we will win, I mean Red Sox a few years ago got loaded in the offseason. But they are a threat to win the division. But games aren't played on paper, that's the point of a season. Some guys might struggle, some might get hurt, **** happens.

But this division is more vulnerable now then it has been in a long time. Yanks have Arod out half the year (replaced by Youk lol), Jeter might be out to start the year, lost Soriano to FA and Rivera and others are aging.

Red Sox are a mess right now.

Rays lost Shields which hurts short term, might be good long term.

Os overachieved last season IMO. I don't see them doing it again.

The year to go for it was next season all things considered

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12-27-2012, 12:48 PM
  #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martini View Post
LoL. The Jays had nothing on the Red Sox last year, but thats besides the point. The fact remains that the Jays were horrible last year, and to compensate in moves of desperation, they accumulated a bunch of, imo, of course, "meh" type players who have just as questionable histories as the same, injury ravaged team that stunk up the east last year.

This is a bad team as it stands right now. Are they better then last years embarrassment? Of course, they couldnt be worse. But a gimmick pitcher, a always injured middle of the rotation guy, a diva shortstop, a drugger, and a average rotation guy sure doesnt even scream better then the Red Sox to me.

I dont think anybody in the east is shaking in their boots over the Jays.
Bravo, quite the intellectual argument there.

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12-27-2012, 01:25 PM
  #543
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Bravo, quite the intellectual argument there.
I dunno if hes serious but its better if you just block him

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12-27-2012, 03:33 PM
  #544
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I dunno if hes serious but its better if you just block him
Your username suits this thread well

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12-27-2012, 04:29 PM
  #545
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Jays fans taking it personally that casual observers here are not just giving them the east title when power houses such as the Yankees are still in the division.
I rather listen to MLB experts such as Dan Shulman, Buster Onley and etc who have said all the Blue Jays moves have been great and they predict them to win the AL East. They also mention that the Yankees could be a factor based on their history, however with they also say with their team being older chances are they won't be a contender in 2013.

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01-23-2013, 02:44 AM
  #546
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Everybody said the same thing about Miami last year. The Rangers in the late 90's and the Yankees every year. It doesn't mean jack unless they can actually play together.

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01-23-2013, 10:18 AM
  #547
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Thank you for that highly original, astute analysis.

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01-23-2013, 10:48 AM
  #548
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Thank you for that highly original, astute analysis.
It's a hockey board, if you want original go watch baseball tonight. Baseball is just like any other sport - it also has paper tiger teams and the Jays look like one to me but if that isn't original enough for you perhaps watching them lose the division again will somehow be more original but I doubt it.

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01-23-2013, 11:51 AM
  #549
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Everybody said the same thing about Miami last year. The Rangers in the late 90's and the Yankees every year. It doesn't mean jack unless they can actually play together.
This has already been said about a hundred times in this thread. Good bump though.

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01-23-2013, 12:36 PM
  #550
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It's a hockey board, if you want original go watch baseball tonight. Baseball is just like any other sport - it also has paper tiger teams and the Jays look like one to me but if that isn't original enough for you perhaps watching them lose the division again will somehow be more original but I doubt it.
So you bumped a thread that had not had any comments on it in close to a month just to state the obvious?

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