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Maxim Shalunov Suspended 1 Game

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Old
12-27-2012, 12:09 PM
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
That's not always the case. Many factors other than the initial force can lead to a concussion.
This is true. Any blow can cause a concussion, even where the head is not contacted but gets accelerated indirectly.

But again, in this case, the lack of concussion is evidence (not proof) of a lack of force.

Would this have been penalized as a cross check if it had contacted the chest (which I think was most likely the intent) and not the head? I think clearly it would not.

I do think Shalunov is responsible for his stick in this case and deserved to be penalized (4 minutes) but unless there is significant injury I don't see the suspension (viewed from the camera angles in the original post) though 1 game is OK if there must be one.

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12-27-2012, 12:13 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Well I said earlier that he was not suspended further because of the circumstances. First the Slovak player was trying to check him when he didn't have the puck, second he comes around the other Russian player and doesn't see the Slovak player until he is trying to hit him. He reacts instantly to protect himself. I don't think it was malicious but you still have to punish a player for putting his stick in a guy's face. If he had done what Asham did and sought out the Slovak player and deliberately cross checked him in the face, then he would likely have played his last game in the tournament.
You do realize that he was within the "time limit" for hitting a player who has just released the puck. The general rule is .5 to 1 second or a stride or two.

Secondly, concussions can happen on the most innocuous hits. Crosby's hit from Hedman(Whatever injury he suffered) happened on a play that occurs so many times in a game you can't count them all.

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12-27-2012, 12:18 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by AndyPipkin View Post
You do realize that he was within the "time limit" for hitting a player who has just released the puck. The general rule is .5 to 1 second or a stride or two.

Secondly, concussions can happen on the most innocuous hits. Crosby's hit from Hedman(Whatever injury he suffered) happened on a play that occurs so many times in a game you can't count them all.
Check the replay. If anything I think the Slovak thought he was getting the puck back on a cycle, where in fact Shalunov had not received it.

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12-27-2012, 12:18 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyPipkin View Post
You do realize that he was within the "time limit" for hitting a player who has just released the puck. The general rule is .5 to 1 second or a stride or two.

Secondly, concussions can happen on the most innocuous hits. Crosby's hit from Hedman(Whatever injury he suffered) happened on a play that occurs so many times in a game you can't count them all.
I don't have it on the DVR anymore, but I'd give a rough guess of a a minute to ten or so since Shalunov had the puck. He never had it leading up to the incident.

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12-27-2012, 12:20 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Check the replay. If anything I think the Slovak thought he was getting the puck back on a cycle, where in fact Shalunov had not received it.
Must have been it as I just made the same mistake

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12-27-2012, 12:21 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
One never knows. His head snaps back and that's what causes concussions, rapid movements of the head that the neck muscles aren't prepared for. I think the suspension was appropriate because you can't be making contact with the head with your stick because it can lead to severe injury.
Concussion is actually caused when the brain makes traumatic contact with the skull.

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12-27-2012, 12:23 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Concussion is actually caused when the brain makes traumatic contact with the skull.
Yes which doesn't come when the head is stationary. It comes when the head is moved traumatically.

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12-27-2012, 12:23 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Check the replay. If anything I think the Slovak thought he was getting the puck back on a cycle, where in fact Shalunov had not received it.
Its odd that he'd be looking straight at Shalunov if he thought the puck was coming from behind him.

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12-27-2012, 12:23 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Concussion is actually caused when the brain makes traumatic contact with the skull.
From rapid movements of the head. Especially side to side. That is why boxer's brains are so scrambled.

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12-27-2012, 12:24 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by secord92 View Post
Jenners hit didnt cause a concussion your point?
Jenner's hit ended the Swedish player's season!

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12-27-2012, 12:26 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
Jenner's hit ended the Swedish player's season!
So? That doesn't make it any more or less legal. A perfectly legal hit can also injure but shouldn't be subjected to any discipline. A perfectly illegal hit could not result in an injury but should result in discipline.

The discipline should rest on the nature of the hit itself, not the outcome. It's ludicrous that professional sports leagues don't see that.

The really dangerous plays are the ones to the head and neck of players regardless of if they result in a concussion or not.

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12-27-2012, 12:29 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
So? That doesn't make it any more or less legal.

The really dangerous plays are the ones to the head and neck of players regardless of if they result in a concussion or not.
Nope, but it makes the illegal hit worse in the eyes of those responsible for suplementary discipline.

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12-27-2012, 12:29 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
So? That doesn't make it any more or less legal.

The really dangerous plays are the ones to the head and neck of players regardless of if they result in a concussion or not.
so you are saying that a hit that ended a player's season is less dangerous than a hit that ended up with the victim sitting on the bench half a minute later

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12-27-2012, 12:31 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by MOGiLNY View Post
so you are saying that a hit that ended a player's season is less dangerous than a hit that ended up with the victim sitting on the bench half a minute later
Yes. I'm saying that the outcome of the hit is a very poor indicator of the legality of the hit.

Punish based on whether the hit was legal or not. Not the outcome. The outcome is reliant way more on extraneous things like how fragile the other player is, what position that player happened to be in, how he just happened to land, etc.

In the case of a hit or elbow to the head or neck, that is the primary source of injury. In this case, the player making the illegal hit is directly responsible for the injury. In the case of a hit to the body, the most common source of injury is landing wrong or hitting the boards. In this case, the player making the illegal hit is indirectly responsible for the injury.

Further, it is much less likely that a player accidentally cross-checks or elbows another player in the face. In this case it's far easier to argue "well he meant to injure the other player because he obviously stuck his elbow out or cross-checked him in the head" as opposed to a late hit or a high stick.

When a player is injured, that should serve as a red flag to the governing body that they need to review the play. But the extent of whether or not the hit was legal should solely rest on the hit itself.

Punishing players shouldn't be about retaliation. That's petty and childish. It should be about minimizing dangerous ACTIVITIES.


Last edited by Crede777: 12-27-2012 at 12:42 PM.
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12-27-2012, 12:42 PM
  #90
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Didn't see the game but if player was not hurt I think one game fits the crime in tourneys like this. This play from the clip just looks like poor reactionary play. Shalunov misses important game against Americans I think IIHF justice was rightfully served.

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12-27-2012, 12:43 PM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MOGiLNY View Post
so you are saying that a hit that ended a player's season is less dangerous than a hit that ended up with the victim sitting on the bench half a minute later
If I shot a gun and into a crowd and grazed someone (I'm Canadian and do not shoot well) would that be less dangerous than the banana peel I placed on the ground that broke someone's neck? Generally speaking of course.

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12-27-2012, 12:44 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
If I shot a gun and into a crowd and grazed someone (I'm Canadian and do not shoot well) would that be less dangerous than the banana peel I placed on the ground that broke someone's neck? Generally speaking of course.
If I shoot a man with full intention of killing him but he doesn't end up dying, that's just as bad as if I'd have killed him.

The problem isn't the outcome. The problem is the intent and the action.

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12-27-2012, 12:50 PM
  #93
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But I guess he doesn't really count since he is one of the biggest jokes on HF. Still, there is someone defending this.
Your opinion of me means so much to me! I can't tell you how emotionally scarred I am from your hurtful words!

Please don't say that Canadian posters didn't defend Jenner's hit. A number of them went to lengths to explain why it was a "clean hit," while others thought a 3 game suspension was excessive, even though the Swedish player is out for the season.

Others have agreed that it appears as though Shalunov was making a defensive reaction to an oncoming illegal hit. His stick was low, and, at a minimum, it is not obvious that he had intent to cross check him in the face. He should be punished for cross checking, but it was clear that the Slovak player was coming at him, rather than the other way around. If anything, those facts mitigated Shalunov's sentence. I really thought that Jenner should have been kicked out of the tournament. His hit was consistent with his MO.

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12-27-2012, 12:53 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Yes which doesn't come when the head is stationary. It comes when the head is moved traumatically.
Agreed.

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12-27-2012, 12:54 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
If I shoot a man with full intention of killing him but he doesn't end up dying, that's just as bad as if I'd have killed him.

The problem isn't the outcome. The problem is the intent and the action.
It really isn't as bad, just ask his family.

Now tell me what Jenner's intent was.

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12-27-2012, 12:55 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
If I shoot a man with full intention of killing him but he doesn't end up dying, that's just as bad as if I'd have killed him.

The problem isn't the outcome. The problem is the intent and the action.
Not according to our legal system.

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12-27-2012, 12:57 PM
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
If I shoot a man with full intention of killing him but he doesn't end up dying, that's just as bad as if I'd have killed him.

The problem isn't the outcome. The problem is the intent and the action.
Tell that to the dead guy.

Including the result has the advantage of taking away intentional "accidents". You can debate whether intent or result is more important in the suspension process, but both are usually considered. If result alone was considered Jenner would not play in this tournament, and if intent alone was considered, he would only have served 2 minutes, for his intentional interference...and in the case of Shalunov you would have no way to really prove intent, one way or the other.

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12-27-2012, 12:58 PM
  #98
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
It really isn't as bad, just ask his family.

Now tell me what Jenner's intent was.
That's the thing, proving intent is difficult. However, in the case of an elbow or cross-check to the face vs. a late hit, I think intent can be mapped out.

Why would you cross-check someone in the face?
1. To injure that person.

Why would you hit someone late?
1. To injure that person.
2. Because you were unaware of the timing.
3. Because you couldn't avoid that person.
etc.

I'm sure more reasons can be thought of for both, but in the end I think there are many more possible explanations for hitting another player late than there are for cross-checking him in the face.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Tell that to the dead guy.
Why? Punishment shouldn't be about retribution, it should be about eliminating bad behavior and intentions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xokkeu View Post
Not according to our legal system.
I anticipated someone saying this. Our legal system punishes the two differently because intent is almost impossible to prove. They have to make a concession because it's an imperfect system. But if you had the power to prove intent without any doubt, I think most would be in favor of punishing the two equally as if both had the same outcome (think Minority Report).

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12-27-2012, 12:58 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Crede777 View Post
So? That doesn't make it any more or less legal. A perfectly legal hit can also injure but shouldn't be subjected to any discipline. A perfectly illegal hit could not result in an injury but should result in discipline.

The discipline should rest on the nature of the hit itself, not the outcome. It's ludicrous that professional sports leagues don't see that.

The really dangerous plays are the ones to the head and neck of players regardless of if they result in a concussion or not.
His hit was perfectly illegal, which should have resulted in him being banned from the tournament. Also, how can you localize the damage of an illegal hit to one part of the body? Jenner's hit broke his ribs, which can be fatal if a broken rib severely punctures a lung or causes other severe hemorrhaging.


Last edited by Yakushev72: 12-27-2012 at 01:07 PM. Reason: omission
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12-27-2012, 01:03 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
His hit was perfectly illegal, which should have resulted in him being banned from the tournament. Also, how can you localize the damage of an illegal hit to one part of the body? Jenner's hit broke his ribs, which can be fatal if a broken rib severely punctures a lung.
Because the punishment shouldn't be based on the damage done. It should be based on what Jenner did and why.

As I said above, there are numerous possible explanations for hitting someone late besides wanting to injure that player such as not realizing the hit would be late. There are far fewer explanations for cross-checking someone in the face.

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