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Old
12-27-2012, 12:56 PM
  #26
Oates2Neely
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Burke needs to be patient in filling his teams "holes". Dont give up valuable assets.

top-6 center: UFA, try for Weiss, Ontario boy. Not the "big bodied #1 center" Leaf fans constantly clamor for, but he is a skilled 2-way center who puts up points. Boston won a Cup w/ Krejci & Bergeron as their top-6 centers, neither of whom is big bodied. A Weiss-Grabovski 1-2 punch is suitable.

Goalie: Buy Reimer some time, acquire a stop-gap veteran to mentor Reimer for the next season or two. The kid showed some definite skill his rookie year, I wouldnt give up on him yet. Target a Tim Thomas or Jose Theodore.

The Leafs offense wasnt the problem last season, they were ranked in the top half of the league. It was their defense that sputtered. Having Carlyle for a full season will help tremendously. Ofcourse at first the offense may struggle a bit getting accustomed to Carlyles tight 'd' system, but they'll adjust, and JVR will also help out quite a bit.

With Reilly & Gardiner being the young guns & the future of this d-core, Phaneuf, Liles & Gunnarson will have to blend well with the youngsters. If all buy in to Carlyles system, the defense should be quite improved. *And I hate to say this, but it's quite possible Komisarek finds his game again under Carlyle. He suffered under Wilson's coaching style, perhaps this will get him playing tight & sound again.

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12-27-2012, 01:14 PM
  #27
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Pens get screwed hard here. Letang isn't being traded, neither is Fleury or even Morrow for that matter.

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Old
12-27-2012, 01:16 PM
  #28
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Terrible for the Pens. We downgrade on defense, downgrade big time on goaltending, and trade away our best prospect for more offensive firepower that we don't need.

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12-27-2012, 01:17 PM
  #29
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Letang is as unmovable as Malkin/Crosby.

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12-27-2012, 01:32 PM
  #30
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The Pens score enough without Kessel. They don't need to add him at the cost of a downgrade in goal and on defense. I don't care how you view Reimer and Gardiner. Letang is a number 1 NOW and outside of an atrocious playoff, Fleury is a solid number 1.

What do you think taking away Letang and replacing him with Gardiner would do for the Pens now? Letang is better now and Gardiner may never reach that level. That's a huge downgrade now and won't help the Pens currently. They should be thinking about a Cup run from the start of the next season, not downgrading the goalie position and already sub-par defense in hopes that Gardiner may be as good as Letang someday, Reimer eventually plays big in big moments (Cup finals), and Kessel can help them outscore every team they play since they won't be able to stop anyone. Doing this takes the Pens from winning 40+ games a season to losing games by a score of 7-6.

It also doesn't help Toronto in getting them the center they need. They need to add a center to play with Kessel, not trade him away.

I don't like it at all from a Pittsburgh perspective. Simply put, Pittsburgh says no.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:18 PM
  #31
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Probably the two most valuable assets on the entire Leafs roster move out, and somehow we still don't have a #1C.

Come on people...

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12-27-2012, 02:35 PM
  #32
Dangles78
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Originally Posted by Definition View Post
Terrible for the Pens. We downgrade on defense, downgrade big time on goaltending, and trade away our best prospect for more offensive firepower that we don't need.
Took the words right out of my mouth!

Toronto has no incentive to involve Kessel in any trade right now either.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:37 PM
  #33
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by Definition View Post
Terrible for the Pens. We downgrade on defense, downgrade big time on goaltending, and trade away our best prospect for more offensive firepower that we don't need.
Ditto for TO, not because of value, but we come away giving up our best scorer...best young D-man (Letang is better now but will cost alot more sooner than Gardiner) and we still have no #1C.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:38 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Definition View Post
Terrible for the Pens. We downgrade on defense, downgrade big time on goaltending, and trade away our best prospect for more offensive firepower that we don't need.
I don't know if the downgrade in goal is "big time"

However, the rest is correct. The pens don't really have a problem scoring... If they do, it will be on the bottom 2 lines and they're not going to deal any of those 3 pieces to strengthen it.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:40 PM
  #35
indigobuffalo
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It's a no-go from the Pens side. Letang is too damn good, and Gardiner is not currently as good as Letang, nor does he figure to be the same kind of offensive defenseman that Letang is.

The Pens categorically do not need to give up blueliners and goaltending to get more firepower. Honestly, with the organizational depth, Kessel is something of an afterthought.

This is a trade that does not address either teams' needs and deals from their organizational weaknesses, making this an all-around bad trade.

Leafs are deep in defencemen and have promising young prospects. They also have an excess of 2Cs and 3Cs.
Pens are a much better team, have good young prospects too, have really only shown weakness in defensive coverage, although they have a lot of up-and-coming prospects who might be able to hold the fort.

If I was to table a trade offer to improve BOTH teams by dealing from strrengths to address weaknesses, here's what I'd offer:


G Marc-André Fleury $5M
LW Matt Cooke $1.8M
LW Chris Kunitz $3.725M

Total Cap Hit: $10.525M
Why the Leafs do this:
Adding MA Fleury to goal gives the Leafs a #1G with a SC ring who also has helped lead the Pens to a conference championship. Chris Kunitz is included a) to help move salary, given that the upcoming CBA will likely cause the Pens a need for cutting costs, as will the new Malkin contract, and b) to add scoring depth with a gritty edge.
Matt Cooke is also included because the Leafs are looking to get tougher up front, and although Cooke has a nasty history, he's largely been able to put that in the past and has evolved into a solid depth player who should do well on a Burke team.

Bozak would have to be replaced by Tim Connolly in the 1C role, which isn't awful. Nikolai Kulemin might be harder to replace, but there are some intriguing options in the Marlies that could do. Worst case scenario, Matthew Lombardi. Carl Gunnarsson has been one of the mainstays on the Leafs blueline, but hopefully the opening leaves room for one of Franson, Gardiner, Holzer or Rielly to jump in.


RW Nikolai Kulemin $2.8M
C Tyler Bozak $1.5M
D Carl Gunnarsson $1.325M
G James Reimer $1.8M

Total cap hit $7.425M
Why Pens do this: The loss of Jordan Staal will be noticed on a Pens team that just couldn't manage to play defensively when they needed to. Out-gunned by the Flyers, they know adding scoring depth isn't the answer.
Nikolai Kulemin is a very solid two-way player, capable of 30 goals and defensively responsible.
Same with Tyler Bozak, who has shown a delicate touch with many highlight reel goals, yet plays solid defensive hockey and has a very good faceoff percentage, making him useful in replacing Jordan Staal in the 3C position, at a huge redux in salary without a major reduction in talent.
Further bolstering the defense, Carl Gunnarsson is a very solid stay-at-home defenceman, who should remind Pens players of Hal Gill's ability to shutdown opposition. At $1.325M, he's a very well-priced addition to the Pens blueline.
Finally, James Reimer fills the hole left by MA Fleury. While he certainly doesn't have the same pedigree, the trade weakens the goaltender position for the Pens but adds to the overall defensive structure of the team. The Pens would expect Reimer to find consistency in goal, and with his big build and style, should be very solid in the Pens organization.


Lines would look like this:
Lupul - Connolly - Kessel
Lombardi - Grabovski - MacArthur
Kunitz - van Riemsdyk - Cooke
Komarov - McClement - Brown

Phaneuf - Liles
Gardiner - Komisarek
Holzer - Franson
Kostka

Neal - Malkin - Kennedy
Sutter - Crosby - Dupuis
Adams - Bozak - Kulemin
Glass - Vitale - Thompson

Paul - Orpik
Letang - Niskanen
Gunnarsson - Strait


Last edited by indigobuffalo: 12-27-2012 at 02:55 PM.
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Old
12-27-2012, 02:43 PM
  #36
Dangles78
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Why do people insist on these HUGE package deals involving franchise players?

The only player I want from the Leafs is Kulemin. Must. Unite. The. Bromance

Let's ignore his low value at the moment which probably is vanishing because of the lockout. What would it take, and please Leaf fans be realistic.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:48 PM
  #37
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Kessel
Grabovski
JVR
Gardiner

for

Malkin
Neal

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:48 PM
  #38
Sidney the Kidney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
If I was to table a trade offer to improve BOTH teams by dealing from strrengths to address weaknesses, here's what I'd offer:


G Marc-André Fleury $5M
LW Matt Cooke $1.8M
LW Chris Kunitz $3.725M

Total Cap Hit: $10.525M
Why the Leafs do this:
Adding MA Fleury to goal gives the Leafs a #1G with a SC ring who also has helped lead the Pens to a conference championship. Chris Kunitz is included a) to help move salary, given that the upcoming CBA will likely cause the Pens a need for cutting costs, as will the new Malkin contract, and b) to add scoring depth with a gritty edge.
Matt Cooke is also included because the Leafs are looking to get tougher up front, and although Cooke has a nasty history, he's largely been able to put that in the past and has evolved into a solid depth player who should do well on a Burke team.

Bozak would have to be replaced by Tim Connolly in the 1C role, which isn't awful. Nikolai Kulemin might be harder to replace, but there are some intriguing options in the Marlies that could do. Worst case scenario, Matthew Lombardi. Carl Gunnarsson has been one of the mainstays on the Leafs blueline, but hopefully the opening leaves room for one of Franson, Gardiner, Holzer or Rielly to jump in.


RW Nikolai Kulemin $2.8M
C Tyler Bozak $1.5M
D Carl Gunnarsson $1.325M
G James Reimer $1.8M

Total cap hit $7.425M
Why Pens do this: The loss of Jordan Staal will be noticed on a Pens team that just couldn't manage to play defensively when they needed to. Out-gunned by the Flyers, they know adding scoring depth isn't the answer.
Nikolai Kulemin is a very solid two-way player, capable of 30 goals and defensively responsible.
Same with Tyler Bozak, who has shown a delicate touch with many highlight reel goals, yet plays solid defensive hockey and has a very good faceoff percentage, making him useful in replacing Jordan Staal in the 3C position, at a huge redux in salary without a major reduction in talent.
Further bolstering the defense, Carl Gunnarsson is a very solid stay-at-home defenceman, who should remind Pens players of Hal Gill's ability to shutdown opposition. At $1.325M, he's a very well-priced addition to the Pens blueline.
Finally, James Reimer fills the hole left by MA Fleury. While he certainly doesn't have the same pedigree, the trade weakens the goaltender position for the Pens but adds to the overall defensive structure of the team. The Pens would expect Reimer to find consistency in goal, and with his big build and style, should be very solid in the Pens organization.
Pens don't need Bozak to replace Staal. Sutter was acquired in the Staal-deal, and is more than capable as a 3rd line defensive center who can chip in offense. Crosby/Malkin/Sutter is perfectly acceptable as the top three centers.

Swapping Kulemin for Kunitz seems more like a null move, since it's basically swapping one top six winger for another, resulting in one top six winger. Kunitz is currently the more proven player, but even if you factor in Kulemin's age, it's still a move that results in replacing one top six winger for a similar one. The end result doesn't *add* a top six winger to the Pens.

And I still don't know why the Pens deal Fleury only to replace him with Reimer. It's a downgrade, no matter how you look at it.

While the deal isn't as bad as the OP (no Letang being dumped just to add more scoring), it still doesn't do much for the Pens. They've downgraded in net, swapped one top six winger for another one (without bringing in an additional top six winger to what they already have), and brought in a redundant piece in Bozak. The only real addition is Gunnarson, but the Pens already have a full defense under contract, with 2 or 3 rookies capable of stepping in on the bottom pairing if necessary.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:50 PM
  #39
Liferleafer
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
Why do people insist on these HUGE package deals involving franchise players?

The only player I want from the Leafs is Kulemin. Must. Unite. The. Bromance

Let's ignore his low value at the moment which probably is vanishing because of the lockout. What would it take, and please Leaf fans be realistic.
He is "realisticly" the only physical winger in our top 6. He is also on a cheap contract. He has also proven he can score. So...."realisticly", unless we can solve our Goalie/1C issues there is zero sense in moving him.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:52 PM
  #40
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making him useful in replacing Jordan Staal in the 3C position, at a huge redux in salary without a major reduction in talent.
Sup

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:53 PM
  #41
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I'd pay to see Kessel play a full season in the Atlantic.

That would be funny.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:55 PM
  #42
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Yeah, Bozak solves absolutely nothing for the Pens. Nothing. We are extremely comfortable with Crosby/Malkin/Sutter.

Also, Letang is completely untouchable in our situation unless we are somehow getting guy like Shea Weber back. Our already weak defense would be absolutely laughable without Letang.

Kulemin and Gunnarsson definitely are the interešsting pieces, but I don´t know how to get them without overpaying.

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12-27-2012, 03:06 PM
  #43
indigobuffalo
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Pens don't need Bozak to replace Staal. Sutter was acquired in the Staal-deal, and is more than capable as a 3rd line defensive center who can chip in offense. Crosby/Malkin/Sutter is perfectly acceptable as the top three centers.

Swapping Kulemin for Kunitz seems more like a null move, since it's basically swapping one top six winger for another, resulting in one top six winger. Kunitz is currently the more proven player, but even if you factor in Kulemin's age, it's still a move that results in replacing one top six winger for a similar one. The end result doesn't *add* a top six winger to the Pens.

And I still don't know why the Pens deal Fleury only to replace him with Reimer. It's a downgrade, no matter how you look at it.

While the deal isn't as bad as the OP (no Letang being dumped just to add more scoring), it still doesn't do much for the Pens. They've downgraded in net, swapped one top six winger for another one (without bringing in an additional top six winger to what they already have), and brought in a redundant piece in Bozak. The only real addition is Gunnarson, but the Pens already have a full defense under contract, with 2 or 3 rookies capable of stepping in on the bottom pairing if necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Will Hunting View Post
Yeah, Bozak solves absolutely nothing for the Pens. Nothing. We are extremely comfortable with Crosby/Malkin/Sutter.

Also, Letang is completely untouchable in our situation unless we are somehow getting guy like Shea Weber back. Our already weak defense would be absolutely laughable without Letang.

Kulemin and Gunnarsson definitely are the interešsting pieces, but I don´t know how to get them without overpaying.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovesLikeJagr68 View Post
Sup
Bozak allows Sutter to be used as Crosby's LW, adding him to the top 6 (where his skill-set belongs) rather than in the 3C slot where he'll be under-utilized given the majority of the ice-time is eaten up by Crosby and Malkin.

Bozak is more reliable and less expensive in the 3C, whereas Sutter is a much better used asset in the 2nd line LW slot, where you assumed Kulemin would go.

Kulemin should be used on the 3rd line pairing in a shutdown role with Bozak, I assumed Adams would be a good LW pairing there but the Pens fans might see better opportunities for someone else.

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12-27-2012, 03:18 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by indigobuffalo View Post
Bozak allows Sutter to be used as Crosby's LW, adding him to the top 6 (where his skill-set belongs) rather than in the 3C slot where he'll be under-utilized given the majority of the ice-time is eaten up by Crosby and Malkin.

Bozak is more reliable and less expensive in the 3C, whereas Sutter is a much better used asset in the 2nd line LW slot, where you assumed Kulemin would go.

Kulemin should be used on the 3rd line pairing in a shutdown role with Bozak, I assumed Adams would be a good LW pairing there but the Pens fans might see better opportunities for someone else.
Sutter plays centre, so throwing him on the wing wouldn't be using him properly. Besides, the Pens are a team that is built down the middle. They can comfortably run 3 lines consistently due to having spread out scoring from each line. Sutter is a great 3rd line centre for this team; can put up points, great defensively, affordable, and not too good that you feel bad about having him play on a 3rd line (right Jordan?).

Kulemin would be playing with Malkin if he was here. That would probably be the only reason he would be brought here. Cooke is fine at 3rd LW, while Adams is the 4th line centre/right wing.

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12-27-2012, 03:30 PM
  #45
indigobuffalo
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Sutter plays centre, so throwing him on the wing wouldn't be using him properly. Besides, the Pens are a team that is built down the middle. They can comfortably run 3 lines consistently due to having spread out scoring from each line. Sutter is a great 3rd line centre for this team; can put up points, great defensively, affordable, and not too good that you feel bad about having him play on a 3rd line (right Jordan?).

Kulemin would be playing with Malkin if he was here. That would probably be the only reason he would be brought here. Cooke is fine at 3rd LW, while Adams is the 4th line centre/right wing.
Sutter showed a lot of promise with the 'Canes last year. I think you'd be surprised to see what he brings to the table. For the record, I will agree that Sutter is a better 3C option than Bozak. They're very similar players, but whereas Bozak has essentially hit the plateau of his development, Sutter is still improving. To me, this suggests that he certainly could become another Jordan Staal, and outgrow the 3C.

That's why I suggested adding Bozak in the 3C. There's no room for expansion there, he is what he is, but as a 3C he'd be a great addition over all other non-Sutter Pens' players. Sutter has solid scoring talent and great defensive instincts. The Pens would be better off using him more diligently. Instead of stuffing him into a role he has basically already outgrown.

If Kulemin absolutely has to be on Malkin's line then swap him in for Kennedy, although really I think Kulie is best suited to a shutdown role.

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12-27-2012, 04:07 PM
  #46
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Leafs trade:
Kessel
Reimer
Gardiner

Pens trade:
Fleury
Morrow
Letang

This deal obviously isn't finalized, so debate which should add more.
I don't think either team does this. The Leafs are giving up the better package barely but the Penguins don't need wingers, they need D who know how to play D.

If the Penguins want to trade Letang I could understand if the wanted to trade him for a defensive stud, but Kessel? why? So they can score more goals and let more goals in? I think that is the last thing the Penguins need, they already have the best offense in the league.

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12-27-2012, 04:13 PM
  #47
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Letang is as unmovable as Malkin/Crosby.
That is a huge exaggeration don't you think?

There are a bunch of defenseman who are better than Letang, not so much the other two and I could easily see the Penguins moving Letang if they had an opportunity to upgrade, you can't upgrade on Crosby and Malkin so the only way they move them is if they have to because of cap space or they know the player wants to be moved like Staal.

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12-27-2012, 04:31 PM
  #48
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That is a huge exaggeration don't you think?

There are a bunch of defenseman who are better than Letang, not so much the other two and I could easily see the Penguins moving Letang if they had an opportunity to upgrade, you can't upgrade on Crosby and Malkin so the only way they move them is if they have to because of cap space or they know the player wants to be moved like Staal.
No point trading a #1 defenseman unless you have more than one (Pens definitely don't) or you're getting an even better one in return (Pens need to upgrade their defensive unit as a whole not Letang).

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Old
12-27-2012, 04:36 PM
  #49
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That is a huge exaggeration don't you think?

There are a bunchof defenseman who are better than Letang, not so much the other two and I could easily see the Penguins moving Letang if they had an opportunity to upgrade, you can't upgrade on Crosby and Malkin so the only way they move them is if they have to because of cap space or they know the player wants to be moved like Staal.
Bold 1:

Riiiighhhhttttt. He's easily in top-5 conversation. Letang is a pivotal piece to Pittsburgh and there is NO reason to even entertain offers for him unless another young #1 defenceman is coming back.

Bold 2:

I'd love to hear this....

Bold 3:

The Penguins work their cap situation around it's core, specially Geno and Sid, so no way do they let cap space be a factor in keeping them. Sid is signed for the rest of his career and Malkin is about to follow suit. Letang will have a blank check and is expected to be paid like the #1 D-Man he is. We are loaded on D-prospects and will be able to put a formidable lineup out there with defenders on ELC's.

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Old
12-27-2012, 04:37 PM
  #50
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No from the Leafs.

Changing Letang to Neal would get it done, but I'm not sure how the Pens feel about it.
I would be down for the OP. However, I would want Letang WAY more than Neal.

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