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Lockout Discussion Thread 4.0

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Old
12-26-2012, 10:41 AM
  #901
Roulin
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
They also wanted a shorter term CBA..
Right, but that also doesn't seem insurmountable, after the money has been agreed to. Split the difference, 7 or 8 year CBA? I was focusing on contract limits because of Daly's "hill we die on" comment.

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12-26-2012, 10:43 AM
  #902
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Right, but that also doesn't seem insurmountable, after the money has been agreed to. Split the difference, 7 or 8 year CBA? I was focusing on contract limits because of Daly "hill we die on" comment.
The money was never agreed to.

The NHL said we'll give you the money, you give us contract limit. Players took the money and offered alternative.

At end of the day, yes, they aren't that far but if players don't want to give limits, then why would NHL agree to giving more money? It's not really about what's right or wrong but from NHL point of view, that was the deal.

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12-26-2012, 10:57 AM
  #903
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
The money was never agreed to.

The NHL said we'll give you the money, you give us contract limit. Players took the money and offered alternative.

At end of the day, yes, they aren't that far but if players don't want to give limits, then why would NHL agree to giving more money? It's not really about what's right or wrong but from NHL point of view, that was the deal.
To end the embarrassing money grab that is this lockout. To do their job, which is to ensure that hockey is played.

Frame the situation however you want, bottom line is, there were two offers with identical money:

- 50/50, 250m make whole, 50m pension, 5/7 year contract limits, 10 year CBA

- 50/50, 250m make whole, 50m pension, 8 year contract limits, 6-8 year CBA

IMO that is not enough of a difference to cancel a season.

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Old
12-26-2012, 11:35 AM
  #904
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
To end the embarrassing money grab that is this lockout. To do their job, which is to ensure that hockey is played.

Frame the situation however you want, bottom line is, there were two offers with identical money:

- 50/50, 250m make whole, 50m pension, 5/7 year contract limits, 10 year CBA

- 50/50, 250m make whole, 50m pension, 8 year contract limits, 6-8 year CBA

IMO that is not enough of a difference to cancel a season.
So if it were 100 mil make whole and 8 year length players should agree?

Point was they negotiated the make whole higher in return for limits. For whatever reason that's not included in the nhlpa's package.

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Old
12-26-2012, 11:46 AM
  #905
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Originally Posted by LyricalLyricist View Post
So if it were 100 mil make whole and 8 year length players should agree?

Point was they negotiated the make whole higher in return for limits. For whatever reason that's not included in the nhlpa's package.
I don't know about that exact figure, but yes, if the players want to continue under the same general system, they'd do better agreeing to what they think is less than a fair deal, rather than miss more time. I'd still rather see them permanently dissolve the union, so that we never have to go through this again... but if they are not willing to go through that process this time around, they might as well swallow their pride.

If I was an owner, I'd also be pushing to get the deal done asap. They shouldn't want this to go to the courts, and if they agree to the latest union proposal as is, they still "win" the negotiations by a mile.

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12-26-2012, 12:58 PM
  #906
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post
They also wanted a shorter term CBA..
The players want 6+2 years, the owners want 8 years, it's not a big difference in the term.

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Old
12-26-2012, 01:03 PM
  #907
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
10 year CBA
That's a misconception.

The owners proposal is for an 8-year CBA, with a 2-year option at the end if both sides agree. Have you ever heard of an option where both sides have to agree? No, it's a smokescreen with which to fight the public relations war. If you think about it, every single agreement in the history of mankind had the possibility of being renewed at the end if both sides agreed.

An option is only an option if it leans in one direction.

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Old
12-26-2012, 02:33 PM
  #908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Actually, those are the only things that were agreed on, before the latest fit of hissy. 50/50 HRR split, $250M make whole, $50M outside the HRR split to pensions.
That's never been confirmed. Many sources say that the players' proposal continues to included clauses that turn it into an essentially de-linked system, such as a clause that does not allow the players share to ever decrease from the previous year. So there's linkage, but only upwards linkage.

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Old
12-26-2012, 03:49 PM
  #909
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Originally Posted by waffledave View Post
That's never been confirmed. Many sources say that the players' proposal continues to included clauses that turn it into an essentially de-linked system, such as a clause that does not allow the players share to ever decrease from the previous year. So there's linkage, but only upwards linkage.
It has been confirmed - http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411086

I've seen reports of the BOG rejecting the latest union offer based on contract length limits, CBA term and buyout calculations, but not on linkage limits. What are the sources you are citing?

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:38 AM
  #910
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Originally Posted by Fozz View Post
I don't see this thing getting to Jan 2nd and I expect they will come to terms and announce a 48 game schedule on or before that date.
There is absolutely no evidence thus far in this lockout debacle to support your optimism. None.

I cannot believe how many people here do not know how to hope for the best but at the same time to expect, and prepare for, the worst.

This is a MAJOR life skill. You will get killed without it. How do you survive?

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Old
12-27-2012, 09:04 AM
  #911
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Originally Posted by MasterD View Post
They don't care about these things so much. Egos. That's what they're fighting over. Bragging rights as to who "won".

Disgusting how much no one cares about the fans in those negociations.

The players already lost more in this cancelled half-season than what the owners wanted to rollback in the first place.
Every time I hear this 'ego' argument re Bettman and Fehr I just Vom. It's the stupidest most ignorant argument you can possibly make. Yes, of course they have egos, but not in the way you think. They honour their contracts, and take pride in carrying them out to the best of their abilities. That is their 'ego'.

1. Fehr represents the players. They employ him. Therefore he is being Duly Diligent and trying for the best deal possible, and he is well aware that losing a full season as a 3rd liner on 1 mill is bad, very bad. I would wager that every player understands the situation they are in right now, and that Fehr will give them the chance to agree to a deal. He is a professional, not Han Solo.

2. Bettman has to deal with maniacs like Jacobs. Jacobs is his boss. I would not work for Jacobs, but Bettman does, at the moment. I am sure he is heartily sick of it too. But at this time, he has a contract. He follows morally acceptable orders from his bosses, even if he may not agree with them. So do I, and I am an independent registered professional. As long as I work for my boss, I will only disobey him if he asks me to lie, cheat, steal or endanger the public I design buildings for. He owns my office, not me. We are very clear on this, and my boss knows it. I am sure Bettman has told the governers the same thing. He is employed by the owners. He is not Darth Vader.

But in your world, Bettman and Fehr are in Star wars 7, fighting with light sabres. Grasp reality, please.

Look to Jacobs and his ilk if you want to blame.That has been my position from the beginning, and it is more justified every day.


Last edited by bsl: 12-27-2012 at 09:31 AM.
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Old
12-27-2012, 10:55 AM
  #912
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If they don't start by my birthday (Jan 31), I'll be way to pumped for the Blue Jays to care about anything the NHL does this season.

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Old
12-27-2012, 12:10 PM
  #913
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bsl View Post

But in your world, Bettman and Fehr are in Star wars 7, fighting with light sabres. Grasp reality, please.

Look to Jacobs and his ilk if you want to blame.That has been my position from the beginning, and it is more justified every day.
I like the Star Wars analogy, but Bettman really reminds me of Dark Helmet.

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Old
12-27-2012, 01:29 PM
  #914
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
It has been confirmed - http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=411086

I've seen reports of the BOG rejecting the latest union offer based on contract length limits, CBA term and buyout calculations, but not on linkage limits. What are the sources you are citing?
Honestly I don't remember where it is from, but it is discussed in the lockout thread on the main forum.

The players' offer was NOT a straight 50-50 split...It is 50-50 with clauses in place that do not allow the players' share to ever decrease. Therefore, it is only upwards linkage, not real linkage.

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Old
12-27-2012, 01:52 PM
  #915
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
If they don't start by my birthday (Jan 31), I'll be way to pumped for the Blue Jays to care about anything the NHL does this season.
They are already too late and I'm already pumped for baseball

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:26 PM
  #916
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Not sure where else to put this but Emelin is going to the KHL all star game, as is former Hab Perezhogin.

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:33 PM
  #917
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Originally Posted by Et le But View Post
Not sure where else to put this but Emelin is going to the KHL all star game, as is former Hab Perezhogin.
The out of town thread got buried under the various lockout related topics.

Not sure I really care where Emelin plays.

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Old
12-27-2012, 06:57 PM
  #918
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
The out of town thread got buried under the various lockout related topics.

Not sure I really care where Emelin plays.
You don't care that a Habs player is doing well in whatever league he's playing in?

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Old
12-27-2012, 07:49 PM
  #919
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You don't care that a Habs player is doing well in whatever league he's playing in?
Sadly, the motivation to care isn't there anymore.

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Old
12-27-2012, 09:48 PM
  #920
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Thursday, December 27, 2012, 10:46am
With NHL games canceled through Jan. 14 and no end to
the 103-day-old lockout in sight, hockey fans aren't the
only ones growing less optimistic about the chances of a
2012-13 season.
As such, Flyers center Danny Briere -- who's been playing
with Eisbaren Berlin of the Deutsche Eishockey Liga of
Germany since October -- signed a contract extension on
Thursday through the end of the DEL season, his agent,
Pat Brisson, confirms.

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-phil...587&feedID=704


Last edited by Habaneros: 12-27-2012 at 09:57 PM.
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Old
12-27-2012, 09:57 PM
  #921
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Baseball does not excite me anymore, and a team from Toronto will never excite me...

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Old
12-27-2012, 10:03 PM
  #922
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I still believe. Mostly because I think both sides understand the urgency of getting a deal and the risk of losing a season.

For all we know, Gary's plan/instruction was to wait till the very last second...

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Old
12-27-2012, 10:08 PM
  #923
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
I still believe. Mostly because I think both sides understand the urgency of getting a deal and the risk of losing a season.

For all we know, Gary's plan/instruction was to wait till the very last second...
danny bierre,his agent doing him an extension in Berlin, speaks loud to me.

Also today,JOe THorton,said he thinks he will play all season,overseas....(swiss leauge)


Last edited by Habaneros: 12-27-2012 at 10:18 PM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 08:18 AM
  #924
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Holy ****.

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: An NHL player says the NHL made a new offer to the NHLPA on Thursday, one which moved on contract term limits, buyouts and variance...

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Old
12-28-2012, 08:19 AM
  #925
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@Real_ESPNLeBrun: NHL Deputy Commissioner Bill Daly would not confirm it when reached

@Real_ESPNLeBrun: Stay tuned !

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