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UFC 155: Dos Santos vs Velasquez II

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Old
12-27-2012, 11:50 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
It shows that JDS has been taken down twice in his entire ufc career. Shane Carwin isnt a fraction of the wrestler Cain is? Not to mention Cain already had his shot at JDS and took him down zero times. Non-biased?
To be fair though, in terms of stats from the UFC, Shane Carwin isn't a fraction of the wresetler Cain is. He is 2 for 7 attempts in his UFC career. Now, is he better than that? Probably, but the stats suggest he sucks at take-downs.

There is absolutely no doubt that Cain is the best MMA wrestler that JDS has faced and it isn't even close. (Other than Cain the first time of course).

I think JDS will pull out the win again, but I would not be surprised if we see Cain take him down and punish him with ground and pound. These are two incredibly skilled and powerful fighters. Either one is capable of ending this fight at any point. I'm really excited for it. Sort of hoping for a 5 round war (or 3 and a knockout or what ever).

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Old
12-27-2012, 12:05 PM
  #52
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This fight isnt going to be about take downs, or take down defense. The first time this fight goes to the mat is after someone takes a hammer to the side of the head. At that point, 1 may decide to GnP, but neither guy is worrying about wrestling.

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12-27-2012, 12:50 PM
  #53
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This fight isnt going to be about take downs, or take down defense. The first time this fight goes to the mat is after someone takes a hammer to the side of the head. At that point, 1 may decide to GnP, but neither guy is worrying about wrestling.
Seriously? Wrestling is certainly part of Cain's gameplan in this fight. Whether or not he can execute is the question, but that has to be the plan.

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12-27-2012, 12:57 PM
  #54
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12-27-2012, 01:13 PM
  #55
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I think the biggest factor in the big fight will be Cains' speed. JDS has pounded on plodding HWs lately, Cain moves around the ring like a WW, he'll be much harder to hit than JDS recent opponents.

I really have no idea how it plays out, but I agree with the earlier comment that we learned next to nothing in their first fight.
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Originally Posted by m9 View Post
Seriously? Wrestling is certainly part of Cain's gameplan in this fight. Whether or not he can execute is the question, but that has to be the plan.
I think he even admitted to a plan like that the first go around. I sort if remember him talking about not following the plan & getting caught in a gun fight right away.

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Old
12-27-2012, 01:14 PM
  #56
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Main Card (PPV):
Heavyweight Championship Bout: Junior dos Santos (c) vs Cain Velasquez
Lightweight Bout: Joe Lauzon vs Jim Miller
Middleweight Bout: Tim Boetsch vs Costa Philippou
Middleweight Bout: Yushin Okami vs Alan Belcher
Middleweight Bout: Chris Leben vs Derek Brunson

Preliminary Card:
Bantamweight Bout: Brad Pickett vs Eddie Wineland
Bantamweight Bout: Erik Perez vs Byron Bloodworth
Lightweight Bout: Melvin Guillard vs Jamie Varner
Lightweight Bout: Michael Johnson vs Myles Jury
Heavyweight Bout: Phil De Fries vs Todd Duffee
Flyweight Bout: Chris Cariaso vs John Moraga
Featherweight Bout: Max Holloway vs Leonard Garcia

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:23 PM
  #57
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Speed wasn't a problem against Gonzaga...

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Old
12-27-2012, 02:37 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman
Speed wasn't a problem against Gonzaga...
It shouldn't be, Gonzaga is not fast.

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Originally Posted by MBauer View Post
Id you're gonna argue that JDS only has good tdd because the guys he has fought aren't as good of wrestler as Cain, then I can just as easily say Cain's wrestling only looks so good because he is taking guys down with lesser tdd then that of JDS.

JDS has spent a whopping 13 seconds on his back in the UFC, saying Carwin is not a good wrestler is flat out lie and bias to help fit your argument, he was a Division II national champ and stuffed Brock easy until he completely gassed himself out. Am i saying Carwin is a better wrestler then Velasquez, no, but saying he isn't a good wrestler is silly.

Another point that is completely overlooked is the mental aspect, Cain is going into a fight with a guy who has knocked him out, he is a human and just like anyone else that is gonna be in his head a lot going into the fight.
Division II national champ doesn't mean jack when Carwin has never once entered a fight with the intent of using his wrestling. It's not a lie at all, it's a fact based on what we've seen and all of his fight videos back that up. Him taking Junior down in the 3rd round of a grueling fight is totally meaningless.

I did pick Cain, but all I'm trying to say is that it's more than plausible he wins the fight. And yes, he will likely take Junior down, as the only fighters he hasn't taken down are ones that he's knocked out in one round, or conversely knocked him out in one round. I find it unrealistic to expect that the fight will only last a minute again. Whether or not you guys think he will keep him down is another matter entirely. If Cain doesn't, he's probably going to get knocked out.

And contrary to what one poster here thinks, this is all based on actual data. There are only three fighters Cain hasn't taken down. He never tried to take down Brad Morris or Nog. He did try to take down Junior and as we know he lost. That is one fighter he tried to take down in a one minute fight and couldn't do it. Sorry but I am not holding that as grand proof Cain cannot take Junior down.

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12-27-2012, 02:46 PM
  #59
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^ I think Cain can take JDS down. When JDS fought Ferreria(sp?), while he showed he can sweep well, he doesn't seem to have the best TDD. Of course he could have improved over the years, anything can happen.

The thing that strikes me is how easily he gave up that armbar. If Cain was more of a BJJ practioner then I might be worried for JDS, but I can't see Cain being able to hold me down long enough to put a beating on him.

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12-27-2012, 03:11 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Live in the Now View Post
It shouldn't be, Gonzaga is not fast.
Wait, what? Gonzaga is a very fast HW. Not as fast as Cain, but he is fast.

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12-27-2012, 04:15 PM
  #61
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At one time you could consider Gonzaga fast, but it's all relative. In a division with Cain, JDS, Mitrione, Schaub, etc you can't really term him fast.

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12-27-2012, 04:20 PM
  #62
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Hard to predict what's going to happen in the main event as their last fight didn't show us much at all. I think it's a given that Cain is going to try to utilize his wrestling in this fight though, anyone that thinks he's going to try and stand with JDS isn't paying much attention. If Cain can't get JDS to the ground and keep him there, I don't think he's going to last too long on his feet, I don't think there is anyone in the HW division that can hang with JDS. Overreem has the credentials, but his style just seems slow to me. If it does go to the ground it will be interesting to see if JDS can use any of his BJJ as we have yet to see any of that side of him in his UFC career.

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Old
12-27-2012, 05:24 PM
  #63
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Oh I've been paying attention, and I still dont think wrestling will be a factor. It's not like Cain will just constantly go in for a takedown... he'll be flopping around like Lesnar. There is only so many times you can shoot for unsuccessful takedowns, safely. As I said, the wrestling wont come into play unless he hurts JDS, and has the opening for a takedown. If not, he'll just be walking into an uppercut.

This is going to end up being a slugfest, with more action than the first, but it could be just as quick.

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12-27-2012, 06:47 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
Oh I've been paying attention, and I still dont think wrestling will be a factor. It's not like Cain will just constantly go in for a takedown... he'll be flopping around like Lesnar. There is only so many times you can shoot for unsuccessful takedowns, safely. As I said, the wrestling wont come into play unless he hurts JDS, and has the opening for a takedown. If not, he'll just be walking into an uppercut.

This is going to end up being a slugfest, with more action than the first, but it could be just as quick.
Or, you know, he gets JDS up against the cage and works for a takedown from that position? In any case, if this fight becomes a slugfest than the likelihood of Cain winning isn't very high IMO. Of course he just can't continually shoot for the takedown, he'll have to set it up first, but if he can't get the takedown at some point than I don't see him being too successful against JDS. Can't wait for this fight.


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Old
12-27-2012, 08:32 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Captain_Cunney View Post
I think the biggest factor in the big fight will be Cains' speed. JDS has pounded on plodding HWs lately, Cain moves around the ring like a WW, he'll be much harder to hit than JDS recent opponents.

I really have no idea how it plays out, but I agree with the earlier comment that we learned next to nothing in their first fight.

I think he even admitted to a plan like that the first go around. I sort if remember him talking about not following the plan & getting caught in a gun fight right away.
JDS is faster then Cain, at least in hand speed and footwork.

Also this article shuts down the theory that Cain would be hard to hit because he is fast.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/12/2...lack-judo-chop

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:38 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by MBauer View Post
JDS is faster then Cain, at least in hand speed and footwork.

Also this article shuts down the theory that Cain would be hard to hit because he is fast.
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2012/12/2...lack-judo-chop
The Striking Guy is the best. Buy in large I agree with him, though I do find some points where he and I don't see eye to eye.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:47 PM
  #67
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Main Card (PPV):
Heavyweight Championship Bout: Junior dos Santos (c) vs Cain Velasquez
Lightweight Bout: Joe Lauzon vs Jim Miller
Middleweight Bout: Tim Boetsch vs Costa Philippou
Middleweight Bout: Yushin Okami vs Alan Belcher
Middleweight Bout: Chris Leben vs Derek Brunson

Preliminary Card:
Bantamweight Bout: Brad Pickett vs Eddie Wineland
Bantamweight Bout: Erik Perez vs Byron Bloodworth
Lightweight Bout: Melvin Guillard vs Jamie Varner
Lightweight Bout: Michael Johnson vs Myles Jury
Heavyweight Bout: Phil De Fries vs Todd Duffee
Flyweight Bout: Chris Cariaso vs John Moraga
Featherweight Bout: Max Holloway vs Leonard Garcia

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Old
12-28-2012, 12:05 AM
  #68
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I like Both Cain and JDS, really tough fight to call. My gut feeling tells me Cain will beat JDS this time. I think Cain will push the fight by not trying to stand with him and using his wrestling and excellent cardio to wear him down into the later rounds or a decision.

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12-28-2012, 02:36 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Or, you know, he gets JDS up against the cage and works for a takedown from that position? In any case, if this fight becomes a slugfest than the likelihood of Cain winning isn't very high IMO. Of course he just can't continually shoot for the takedown, he'll have to set it up first, but if he can't get the takedown at some point than I don't see him being too successful against JDS. Can't wait for this fight.
This is what I think Cain's game plan will be. Lots of clinch work against the cage. That way he takes the space away from JDS and possibly can get a takedown, and if not, he controls JDS and grinds out a boring decision. At any rate, he avoids being in front of Junior's power, which is key.

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12-28-2012, 04:03 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
This is what I think Cain's game plan will be. Lots of clinch work against the cage. That way he takes the space away from JDS and possibly can get a takedown, and if not, he controls JDS and grinds out a boring decision. At any rate, he avoids being in front of Junior's power, which is key.
Has Cain ever been in a boring fight? He has a 10-1 record (8-1 in the UFC) and has finished his opponent nine times. Including seven first round finishes.

If he gets JDS to the ground and is able to keep him there, it definitely won't be a boring fight. He's not going to sit in JDS' guard or take his time and try to work a submission. He'll start dropping bombs like he always does.

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Old
12-28-2012, 08:44 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Griffin View Post
Or, you know, he gets JDS up against the cage and works for a takedown from that position? In any case, if this fight becomes a slugfest than the likelihood of Cain winning isn't very high IMO. Of course he just can't continually shoot for the takedown, he'll have to set it up first, but if he can't get the takedown at some point than I don't see him being too successful against JDS. Can't wait for this fight.
JDS is too strong.

As I mentioned, the take downs will come after he gets JDS hurt. In that sense, he's not relying on his wrestling. Cain isn't going to try to pull off his best Chael Sonnen impression in this fight. He's going to try to do what he always does - throw bombs, hurt the guy, GnP for the finish.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:17 AM
  #72
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So, instead, we need to rely on Cain's TD stats against Rothwell, Kongo and Jeremiah Constant?

Or are you just mad that he kept giving stats you wanted, but you dont agree with them?

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:32 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by MurrayBannerman View Post
The Striking Guy is the best. Buy in large I agree with him, though I do find some points where he and I don't see eye to eye.
Agreed. His breakdown of the Diaz/Condit fight is a must read for anyone that thinks Diaz won.

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:30 PM
  #74
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Main Card (PPV):
Heavyweight Championship Bout: Junior dos Santos (c) vs Cain Velasquez
Lightweight Bout: Joe Lauzon vs Jim Miller
Middleweight Bout: Tim Boetsch vs Costa Philippou
Middleweight Bout: Yushin Okami vs Alan Belcher
Middleweight Bout: Chris Leben vs Derek Brunson

Preliminary Card:
Bantamweight Bout: Brad Pickett vs Eddie Wineland
Bantamweight Bout: Erik Perez vs Byron Bloodworth
Lightweight Bout: Melvin Guillard vs Jamie Varner
Lightweight Bout: Michael Johnson vs Myles Jury
Heavyweight Bout: Phil De Fries vs Todd Duffee
Flyweight Bout: Chris Cariaso vs John Moraga
Featherweight Bout: Max Holloway vs Leonard Garcia

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12-28-2012, 01:30 PM
  #75
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Just a reminder this is the last event of the year for the pick em. I'm sure I'll finish 2nd again

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