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Old
12-27-2012, 07:51 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by HawkeyeCB View Post
What a joke.
Its not a joke but a fact...

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Old
12-27-2012, 07:55 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I'm still very against tanking. I'm also skeptical about the concept of "surgical tanking" - has any team actually done this? Any tanking I can think of is sloppy and unintentional.
That's never a good reason against innovation.

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Old
12-27-2012, 07:58 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I think the fact that it would be a bizarre & unconventional season with only 50 games over 4 months at most makes it easier to adopt that line of thinking. Tougher sell if you are looking at 82 games and 6 months of it.
Why would that matter?

The idea that a 50 game season is less meaningful than an 82 game season is barely statistically correct. You get sqrt(50/82)=~80% as much statistical diagnostic power in the regular season, and the playoffs are still the playoffs, 4 best of 7 series before the brass ring.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:06 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Why would that matter?

The idea that a 50 game season is less meaningful than an 82 game season is barely statistically correct. You get sqrt(50/82)=~80% as much statistical diagnostic power in the regular season, and the playoffs are still the playoffs, 4 best of 7 series before the brass ring.
I think you missed my point. I was trying to say that suffering through 50 games of bad hockey is easier than suffering through 82 games of bad hockey.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:09 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I think you missed my point. I was trying to say that suffering through 50 games of bad hockey is easier than suffering through 82 games of bad hockey.
I find it hard to believe anybody could be swayed by short-term pain in that way. It really shouldn't matter.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:10 PM
  #31
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i like bad hockey over mediocre hockey. if there is a season, is there any big contract that could be dealt at the deadline?

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12-27-2012, 08:11 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I think you missed my point. I was trying to say that suffering through 50 games of bad hockey is easier than suffering through 82 games of bad hockey.
Either way,


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Old
12-27-2012, 08:11 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Raider917 View Post
i like bad hockey over mediocre hockey. if there is a season, is there any big contract that could be dealt at the deadline?
Our only expiring contracts this year are Colby Armstrong, Petteri Nokelainen, Peter Budaj, and Francis Bouillon.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:11 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Well he does not make it better with his -20 last year.
I love how people use a player's +/- to try to prove a point that X player sucks defensively. Too bad +/- is a flawed statistic and entirely contextual depending on the team's success, it's just a number that doesn't give you the whole story. And it's not like I'm revealing the secret of the Heinz ketchup recipe here, it's pretty much common sense that +/- is a useless stat to rely on. Just by looking at the players who lead that stat shows you how flawed it is, here's a list of the players who've had the best +/- in the league in recent years:
- Patrice Bergeron (+36) with 4 other Boston Bruins players in the top 5, shows how it goes with the success of the team.
- Zdeno Chara (+33), Tony Lidman in 3rd place with +32.
- Jeff Schultz (+50), a player that Caps fan on this board want to desperately get rid of. Obviously a result of a very gifted offensively Washington team.
- David Krejci (+37).

Those are winners in the last 4 seasons, the fact that Jeff Schultz belongs on that list shows how much of a joke that statistic really is. A player like Pavel Datsyuk who's known to be one of the best defensive forwards out there in the league and recipient of the Frank J. Selke trophy 3 times has had an average +/- of 16, yet a player like Alexander Ovechkin who's not really known for his defensive prowess has averaged a +/- of 20 in the last 3 seasons. It just shows you it all depends on well the team is doing. Before last season, Plekanec had a +33 career +/-. His -15 is entirely based on the fact that the team gave him bad wingers and the team as a whole did BAD. It's easier to have a good +/- when your coach gives you favorable match-ups against 3rd lines and bottom pairing defensemen than when you have to constantly face the opposing team's best players every night. Especially when you have to not only defend against them but score too, but that's kinda hard when your wingers are Ryan White and a disinterested Rene Bourque.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
If he misses any gametime, the habs will be a better team. If there is a season.
Seriously, in an "injury report" thread?

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:16 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
I love how people use a player's +/- to try to prove a point that X player sucks defensively. Too bad +/- is a flawed statistic and entirely contextual depending on the team's success, it's just a number that doesn't give you the whole story. And it's not like I'm revealing the secret of the Heinz ketchup recipe here, it's pretty much common sense that +/- is a useless stat to rely on. Just by looking at the players who lead that stat shows you how flawed it is, here's a list of the players who've had the best +/- in the league in recent years:
- Patrice Bergeron (+36) with 4 other Boston Bruins players in the top 5, shows how it goes with the success of the team.
- Zdeno Chara (+33), Tony Lidman in 3rd place with +32.
- Jeff Schultz (+50), a player that Caps fan on this board want to desperately get rid of. Obviously a result of a very gifted offensively Washington team.
- David Krejci (+37).

Those are winners in the last 4 seasons, the fact that Jeff Schultz belongs on that list shows how much of a joke that statistic really is. A player like Pavel Datsyuk who's known to be one of the best defensive forwards out there in the league and recipient of the Frank J. Selke trophy 3 times has had an average +/- of 16, yet a player like Alexander Ovechkin who's not really known for his defensive prowess has averaged a +/- of 20 in the last 3 seasons. It just shows you it all depends on well the team is doing. Before last season, Plekanec had a +33 career +/-. His -15 is entirely based on the fact that the team gave him bad wingers and the team as a whole did BAD. It's easier to have a good +/- when your coach gives you favorable match-ups against 3rd lines and bottom pairing defensemen than when you have to constantly face the opposing team's best players every night. Especially when you have to not only defend against them but score too, but that's kinda hard when your wingers are Ryan White and a disinterested Rene Bourque.
+/- is not perfect but its a good indication especialy when he is supposed to be a great defensive player as many Pleks lovers say. And when you compare is +/- to most of his teammate he fares very poorly. But what i dislike the most about him his how soft he is. A girlie like he said about himself a few years ago.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:16 PM
  #37
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A Plekanec thread and of course Patof has some negative things to say

Anyways I'm ok with this cause I would love another top 5 picks to add to this great young prospect pool we have

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:18 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
+/- is not perfect but its a good indication especialy when he is supposed to be a great defensive player as many Pleks lovers say. And when you compare is +/- to most of his teammate he fares very poorly. But what i dislike the most about him his how soft he is. A girlie like he said about himself a few years ago.
Brad Staubitz was a +2 in his time with Montreal so by your logic he's a better player defensively than Plekanec and his -15?

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:19 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Habs 4 Life View Post
A Plekanec thread and of course Patof has some negative things to say

Anyways I'm ok with this cause I would love another top 5 picks to add to this great young prospect pool we have
I agree with you, i hope we tank this year. Great draft year.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:20 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Chris Cutter View Post
Brad Staubitz was a +2 in his time with Montreal so by your logic he's a better player defensively than Plekanec and his -15?
No but compare him to the other full time centers on the Habs...

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:21 PM
  #41
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No but compare him to the other full time centers...
Like Eric Staal?

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:23 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Well he does not make it better with his -20 last year.
I guess the Hurricanes will trade Eric Staal as soon as the lockout ends. With his -20 last year, he was hurting the team more than anything and it should be the same way for the rest of his contrat.



Btw, Plekanec was -15... Not really better, but it shows how you're exagerating the reality to prove your "point without much valid explanations.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:24 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Like Eric Staal?
Eric Staal is not very good defensively, much much better offensively then Plekanec and not soft like Plekanec. And btw he won a cup.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:25 PM
  #44
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Sucks to hear, he was tearing up the Czech league. Hopefully he has a quick recovery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
Well he does not make it better with his -20 last year.
He was -15 this year. That's the lowest he's ever been. If you want to use something that's as useless as +/-, then what does the +18 over his career mean?

But you know who was -20? Eric Staal. Guess he sucks too.

EDIT: beaten by Impossible Glory.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:28 PM
  #45
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Sucks to hear, he was tearing up the Czech league. Hopefully he has a quick recovery.



He was -15 this year. That's the lowest he's ever been. If you want to use something that's as useless as +/-, then what does the +18 over his career mean?

But you know who was -20? Eric Staal. Guess he sucks too.
I give you Plekanec and i'll take Staal. Anyday.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:29 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
I find it hard to believe anybody could be swayed by short-term pain in that way. It really shouldn't matter.
I think you are looking at this from a management perspective. Yes, in that sense there should be no 'swaying'. A plan is a plan, you shouldn't change it based on a 50 game season compared to an 82 game season.

I'm looking at it from a fans perspective since your post was about people here changing their position over the last few months. It's just easier for fans to get behind the idea of having a lousy 50 game season to get another young stud since we're NHL hockey starved anyway.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:29 PM
  #47
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Most under appreicated hab...

Get well Plek ,see ya next season.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:29 PM
  #48
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#tank

get better plecky

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:30 PM
  #49
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I think it is way too soon too talk about tanking at this point. Even if they strike a deal in a week - best case scenario - the season will start mid January. Pleky will probably have to be on the shelf for 4 weeks so he will likely miss just a couple of weeks. That's not much even in a shortened season. Considering we have Lars chomping at the bit to get an opportunity for quality minutes and Gally available, I don't see how that is so devastating.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:30 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patofqc View Post
I give you Plekanec and i'll take Staal. Anyday.
Me too. That's not the point. We're just saying that if you say that Pleks makes us weaker only because of his -15, Staal has the same effect, or even worse, because of his -20. According to your logic, anyway.

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