HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Is Crosby overrated?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-26-2012, 11:36 AM
  #226
GWOW
Two Pucks, One Cup
 
GWOW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 13,836
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JackFr View Post
Does one freak injury make him not durable?

He got a bad concussion. He missed a lot of time thanks to his bad concussion. Now he's back, and hasn't gotten injured.

People who blame him for being "injury-prone" have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. He's not injury prone. He's not Lindros or Forsberg, who missed years due to constant concussions and injuries. To say "The kid can't stay healthy" is ridiculous.

An undiagnosed neck injury was discovered after he was "recalled" in the winter. That's not his fault it's the doctors'. It's fixed. He hasn't missed any time since.

He had one bad injury. If a guy gets hit by a car would you say he's "prone to getting hit by cars"?
Three major injuries -- neck, concussions and high ankle sprain.

GWOW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 12:18 PM
  #227
JackFr
Registered User
 
JackFr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,460
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
When someone plays only 4 full seasons out of 7 then yeah, he's injury prone.
Again, two of those years are the result of one freak injury. Forsberg and Lindros were constantly pestered by injury after injury, we wouldn't be having this conversation if it weren't for one of Crosby's.

And the neck and concussion came from the same hit so I think they can be connected.

Injury prone would be if he continued to have ankle problems or if he had left the playoffs this season with a new concussion or neck problem. For now he's just "formerly injured".

JackFr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 12:41 PM
  #228
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 20,334
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
He's one way of figuring out who had the best seasons. Based on conversations during All Time Drafts, I've come to the conclusion that the 5th best scorer in the NHL has as close to constant value as you can find since expansion. If you compare to the first or second best scorer, you often run into outliers (like Mario/Wayne/Steve in 1989).

This is how Crosby finished compared to the #5 scorer over the course of his career. Note that the on pace numbers assume Crosby/Yzerman plays all 82 games at his pace and doesn't assume health for any other player, so it is awfully generous.

2006: 99%
2007: 118%
2008: 75% (on pace for 99%)
2009: 110%
2010: 115%
2011: 72% (on pace for 145%)
2012: 45% (on pace for 166%)

Here are Yzerman's first 7 years

1984: 74%
1985: 74%
1986: 34% (on pace for 54%)
1987: 86%
1988: 92% (on pace for 115%)
1989: 135%
1990: 112%

Here's the rest of Yzerman's offensive peak peak:

1991: 99%
1992: 96%
1993: 104%
1994: 76% (on pace for 111%)

Yzerman's 1988-89 was probably the best season either player had, but overall, Crosby has a significantly better resume in his first 7 seasons and a better offensive prime overall. Now if only Crosby can stay reasonably healthy...
I can't believe that post hasn't been more quoted.

You can't get closer to a "fact" than this.

Not to mention -- Crosby was a much more complete player than Yzerman was (back then).

Career-wise, I think he already passed Forsberg. Certainly shown he was a better goalscorer.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:02 PM
  #229
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I can't believe that post hasn't been more quoted.

You can't get closer to a "fact" than this.

Not to mention -- Crosby was a much more complete player than Yzerman was (back then).

Career-wise, I think he already passed Forsberg. Certainly shown he was a better goalscorer.
Unless of course you add some context to those "facts" like who the #5 scorers were those years...

'84 Bossy
'85 Coffey
'86 Bossy
'87 Gilmour
'88 Messier
'89 Brown
'90 Hull

'06 Alfredsson
'07 St Louis
'08 Thornton
'09 Parise
'10 Stamkos
'11 Stamkos
'12 Kovalchuk

Sorry but one of these lists is not like the other IMO.
Take a real good look at all the years Yzerman was competing, it's a who's who of Gretzky and Lemieux augmented linemates.
Even a guy like Bossy has trouble cracking the top 5 most years.
Heh, look at '86, Bossy finishes 5th in scoring with 122 points behind Gretz, Lemieux and 2 other Oilers.
Eliminate the outlier factor and Yzerman's %'s jump substantially...

'84 78%
'85 85%
'86 40% (on pace 63%)
'87 95%
'88 95% (on pace 128%)
'89 158%
'90 121%


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-26-2012 at 02:34 PM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:25 PM
  #230
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
When someone plays only 4 full seasons out of 7 then yeah, he's injury prone.
See you can't count or is playing 77 games out of 82 being injury prone?

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:28 PM
  #231
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
See you can't count or is playing 77 games out of 82 being injury prone?
07-08 Missed 29 games
10-11 Missed 41 games
11-12 Missed 60 games

That's three out of seven seasons, hence he's only played FOUR full seasons in seven.

My arithmetic is just fine thank you.

SaintPatrick33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:32 PM
  #232
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Unless of course you add some context to those "facts" like who the #5 scorers were those years...

'84 Bossy
'85 Coffey
'86 Bossy
'87 Gilmour
'88 Messier
'89 Brown
'90 Hull

'06 Alfredsson
'07 St Louis
'08 Thornton
'09 Parise
'10 Stamkos
'11 Stamkos
'12 Kovalchuk

Sorry but one of these lists is not like the other IMO.
Take a real good look at all the years Yzerman was competing, it's a who's who of Gretzky and Lemieux augmented linemates.
Even a guy like Bossy has trouble cracking the top 5 most years.
Heh, look at '86, Bossy finishes 5th in scoring with 122 points behind Gretz, Lemieux and 2 other Oilers.
What exactly is your point here?

MXD brought up a really good point and another measuring stick.

If you really want to focus on the Mario and Wayne factor you also are going to need to consider the 21 team league for Steve versus the 30 team league for Sid and the greater possibly of variation there is in a larger league.

throw in Sid's playoff accomplishments and it's not even close to had a better 1st 7 years IMO.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:42 PM
  #233
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
What exactly is your point here?

MXD brought up a really good point and another measuring stick.

If you really want to focus on the Mario and Wayne factor you also are going to need to consider the 21 team league for Steve versus the 30 team league for Sid and the greater possibly of variation there is in a larger league.

throw in Sid's playoff accomplishments and it's not even close to had a better 1st 7 years IMO.
Again dude, the missing Russians and Czechs do NOT make up 9 friggin teams.
And look at 92/93, only 24 teams and the league is more packed with talent at that time than at prolly any other time in history...Stevie is 4th in scoring only behind Lemieux, Lafontaine and Oates.

And I'm not even arguing against Sid having a better first 7 seasons. Just that he's not as far ahead as what's being made out.
Besides, all anyone is saying is that Sid might have the early lead but he's got one hell of a long way to go to hold onto it.
The point is that anyone saying that they rank Sid ahead of Stevie for their first 7 seasons is prolly correct.
Anyone saying that they already have Sid ranked ahead of Stevie overall is quite frankly an idiot!


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 12-26-2012 at 02:48 PM.
Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:43 PM
  #234
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
07-08 Missed 29 games
10-11 Missed 41 games
11-12 Missed 60 games

That's three out of seven seasons, hence he's only played FOUR full seasons in seven.

My arithmetic is just fine thank you.
Yes it is my bad, brain is working to well with Xmas hangover here...lol

Still the point stands that his past year injury problems stemmed in part to a misdiagnosis so the "injury prone " tag is again being overused and is as always a "hindsight is 20-20" game.

It's like calling out a players decline after 4 years of decline in his 30's not very predictive for the future IMO.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:46 PM
  #235
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Again dude, the missing Russians and Czechs do NOT make up 9 friggin teams.
And look at 92/93, only 24 teams and the league is more packed with talent at that time than at prolly any other time in history...Stevie is 4th in scoring only behind Lemieux, Lafontaine and Oates.
Just take their totals and finishes against Canadian only players then.

Also the increase in players and talent has been Europe wide and a huge influx of American players as well.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:52 PM
  #236
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Just take their totals and finishes against Canadian only players then.

Also the increase in players and talent has been Europe wide and a huge influx of American players as well.
WHY?

It's not like it was only Canadian players finishing in the top 10 in the 80's.
Stastny, Kurri (without Gretzky), Nilsson, Broten, Carson, Mullen, Loob..any of these names ring a bell at all

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:53 PM
  #237
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,035
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
WHY?

It's not like it was only Canadian players finishing in the top 10 in the 80's.
Stastny, Nilsson, Broten, Carson, Mullen, Loob..any of these names ring a bell at all
Anyone for some Kurri?

SaintPatrick33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 02:56 PM
  #238
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Anyone for some Kurri?
I left him out because of the outlier factor but edited him back in when I remembered '89

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 05:34 PM
  #239
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
WHY?

It's not like it was only Canadian players finishing in the top 10 in the 80's.
Stastny, Kurri (without Gretzky), Nilsson, Broten, Carson, Mullen, Loob..any of these names ring a bell at all
Take a close look at their 1st 7 years, the number of guys from Europe is probably double in top 10 scoring for Crosby and that more than makes up for the 9 teams difference.

Yzerman

84 27th in points (5guys from US+Europe ahead of him)
85 25th in points (5guys)
86 170th in points (37 guys) (8 in top 33)
87 13th in points (none ahead of him 6 in top 30)
88 12th in points (2 ahead of him and 8 in top 30)
89 3rd in points (10 in top 30)
90 3rd in points (Lafontaine 8, Kurri 19, Olczyk 27 and Makarov 29 in top 30)

Crosby

06 6th in points (3ahead and 4 in 10 and 16 of top 30)
07 1st in points (14 of top 30)
08 30th in points (13 of top 30 and 8 of top 12)
09 3rd in points (behind 2 russians and 14 of top 30)
10 2nd in points (top 4 are non canadians and 9 of top 13,21of top 30)
11 31st in points (11 ahead of him, only 20 candains outscored him despite his 41 games)
12 171st in points in 22 games (44 of top 100)

Facts are pretty clear that Crosby has a much better 1st 7 years than Yzerman, so maybe it's time you stop pretending that it is otherwise.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-26-2012, 09:46 PM
  #240
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

Facts are pretty clear that Crosby has a much better 1st 7 years than Yzerman, so maybe it's time you stop pretending that it is otherwise.
Maybe it's time you actually read my posts...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post

And I'm not even arguing against Sid having a better first 7 seasons. Just that he's not as far ahead as what's being made out.
Besides, all anyone is saying is that Sid might have the early lead but he's got one hell of a long way to go to hold onto it.
The point is that anyone saying that they rank Sid ahead of Stevie for their first 7 seasons is prolly correct.
Anyone saying that they already have Sid ranked ahead of Stevie overall is quite frankly an idiot!

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2012, 12:11 AM
  #241
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,007
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Maybe it's time you actually read my posts...
I would tend to agree with as I'm a career guy but peak guys might disagree.

Also the advantage that Sid has is much more than prolly it's pretty cut and dry (for the 1st 7 years). The degree of competition only helps to magnify that point.

It's also pretty safe to say, with any degree of luck in the health department Sid is going to have a career better than Steve's but of course time will tell on that one.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2012, 01:10 PM
  #242
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,878
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post

Also the advantage that Sid has is much more than prolly it's pretty cut and dry (for the 1st 7 years).
No, it's not!

Quote:
The degree of competition only helps to magnify that point.
There was never a time in NHL history when the competition/talent was more rampant and as tightly packed as the early 90's!

Rhiessan71 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2012, 01:44 PM
  #243
redbull
Expect more
 
redbull's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,571
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
There was never a time in NHL history when the competition/talent was more rampant and as tightly packed as the early 90's!
Lemieux, Gretzky, Hull, Messier, Yzerman, Fedorov, Gilmour, Robitaille, Oates, Lafontaine, Mogilny and Selanne and 21/22 teams.....maybe you're right.



Tough to play in those shadows and stand out I suppose.

redbull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2012, 02:20 PM
  #244
SmellOfVictory
Registered User
 
SmellOfVictory's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 4,614
vCash: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
I think Crosby has this mystique that definetly is not backed up by his performance. A major contributor to this is the statistically anomalous 2005-2007~08 period of hockey. Also what does it say that, the one time the Pens win the cup, their other center is clearly the better player? How many times did the best player in the world end up not being the best player on his own team?
Is that why his best scoring pace has come in the past two seasons, when scoring had dropped back down league-wide? Even in the "statistically anomalous" period of hockey, scoring was not as high as it was through much of hockey's history, and Crosby was still a full step ahead of all but but a handful of elite players in terms of points each season. And Malkin outscored Crosby for a period of 24 games (huge sample), by a small margin, in a single postseason. I didn't pay a huge amount of attention to the direct comparison between the two during that postseason, but I can say that I didn't notice Malkin being the clearly superior player overall; he just ended up with more points.

SmellOfVictory is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-27-2012, 08:27 PM
  #245
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,075
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SmellOfVictory View Post
Is that why his best scoring pace has come in the past two seasons, when scoring had dropped back down league-wide? Even in the "statistically anomalous" period of hockey, scoring was not as high as it was through much of hockey's history, and Crosby was still a full step ahead of all but but a handful of elite players in terms of points each season. And Malkin outscored Crosby for a period of 24 games (huge sample), by a small margin, in a single postseason. I didn't pay a huge amount of attention to the direct comparison between the two during that postseason, but I can say that I didn't notice Malkin being the clearly superior player overall; he just ended up with more points.
Scoring pace is good and all but Crosby has played a total of 63 games the last 2 seasons. Let's see him maintain a PPG above 1.35 for an entire season (when he plays more than 60 games) as opposed to playing those 60 games stretched out over 2 seasons and then we can talk.

It's much harder to maintain a high PPG over an entire full season than it is to do it over stretches of 20-40 games in different seasons. Crosby is starting to benefit from the Forsberg, PPG with less games played effect.


Last edited by livewell68: 12-27-2012 at 08:35 PM.
livewell68 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 05:41 PM
  #246
Bluefan75
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,129
vCash: 500
So, you guys were saying?

Bluefan75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 05:56 PM
  #247
SchultzSquared
Registered User
 
SchultzSquared's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluefan75 View Post
So, you guys were saying?
What is there to say... Crosby boosters get up on their high horses over small sample sizes because that's all they've ever had. The facts are thus... Crosby still has to win the Art Ross for this year for it to be discussed as anything substantive... and even then that would only (loosely) put him into a tie with Malkin in career value.

To put it into perspective... IF Crosby wins the scoring title or Hart this year... it will have been seven years since the last one... it's a joke if anyone would try to claim he was anything more than the 2nd best player on the Penguins over that time.

SchultzSquared is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-18-2013, 06:05 PM
  #248
Bluefan75
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,129
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
What is there to say... Crosby boosters get up on their high horses over small sample sizes because that's all they've ever had. The facts are thus... Crosby still has to win the Art Ross for this year for it to be discussed as anything substantive... and even then that would only (loosely) put him into a tie with Malkin in career value.

To put it into perspective... IF Crosby wins the scoring title or Hart this year... it will have been seven years since the last one... it's a joke if anyone would try to claim he was anything more than the 2nd best player on the Penguins over that time.
Oh. OK.

Bluefan75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 06:48 PM
  #249
Bluefan75
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,129
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
What is there to say... Crosby boosters get up on their high horses over small sample sizes because that's all they've ever had. The facts are thus... Crosby still has to win the Art Ross for this year for it to be discussed as anything substantive... and even then that would only (loosely) put him into a tie with Malkin in career value.

To put it into perspective... IF Crosby wins the scoring title or Hart this year... it will have been seven years since the last one... it's a joke if anyone would try to claim he was anything more than the 2nd best player on the Penguins over that time.
I would have figured nearly 100 more points in basically the same number of games , and a decent point lead in the same number of playoff games would have killed any joke talk, but whatever.

Obviously the key is that when you're going to miss half a season, make sure you go less than a point a game(Malkin 10-11) so that gets tossed out when Crosby's 66 in 41 gets tossed out.

Gotcha.

Bluefan75 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-19-2013, 06:55 PM
  #250
Incognito
Registered User
 
Incognito's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,449
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SchultzSquared View Post
What is there to say... Crosby boosters get up on their high horses over small sample sizes because that's all they've ever had. The facts are thus... Crosby still has to win the Art Ross for this year for it to be discussed as anything substantive... and even then that would only (loosely) put him into a tie with Malkin in career value.

To put it into perspective... IF Crosby wins the scoring title or Hart this year... it will have been seven years since the last one... it's a joke if anyone would try to claim he was anything more than the 2nd best player on the Penguins over that time.
So much wrong with this post.

Incognito is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:39 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.