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OT: NFL Buffalo signs 10 year lease extension

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Old
12-24-2012, 11:05 AM
  #51
cutchemist42
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I don't understand why its so hard to be simply a fan of football? The seasons overlap by 2 months so it's not even hard to follow both.

The Bills in Toronto experiment failed bad and overall, football in Toronto is not in the greatest shape. I really wish the BMO shenanigans had not happened to allow the Argos to not play there. The city should have stopped the soccer exclusivity.

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12-24-2012, 12:51 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Ownership -- The NFL does not have a no corporation rule. They have a rule which stipulates that a "lead" owner must own at least 10% of the team. Tanenbaum has 25% percent of MLSE, which was recently purchased at a valuation of ~$1.7 billion. Tanenbaum could quite easily give up 15% of MLSE to purchase 10% of an NFL franchise.
They do not have a no corporation rule - but they do effectively have a no publicly traded corporation rule. NFL ownership rules allow for ownership by a privately held corporation whose primary purpose is the operation of the Team. There are limits on the number of shareholders, and any transfers of shares - other than to direct family members - must be approved by the League.

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12-24-2012, 01:40 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
They do not have a no corporation rule - but they do effectively have a no publicly traded corporation rule. NFL ownership rules allow for ownership by a privately held corporation whose primary purpose is the operation of the Team. There are limits on the number of shareholders, and any transfers of shares - other than to direct family members - must be approved by the League.
Yup...but that doesn't prevent publically traded organizations from investing in NFL teams, and MLSE isn't publically traded. It's a private organization, with ownership by 3 entities.

When Bell/Rogers bought MLSE, that transaction had to be approved by the NHL, NBA, and likely the other leagues as well. If 3 principles to MLSE (Bell, Rogers, and Larry Tanenbaum) wanted to buy an NFL team tommorow, the only thing stopping them (beyond NFL wanting to expand of course) is money. Bell/Rogers have plenty of that, and there's room for Tanenbaum to decrease his take by 60% while still complying with the NFL 10% ownership rule.

The fact that Bell/Rogers are publically traded has little-to-no-impact, as any material change in ownership (accumulating more than 9.9%) would have to offer to purchase the entire thing. Such a material change in ownership would certainly face the scrutiny of the NFL as well.

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12-24-2012, 06:15 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Faidh ar Rud Eigin View Post
The Bills in Toronto series is done (Especially with the news that Rogers will convert Rogers centre to a real grass stadium in 2014/2015, in otherwords baseball only) but I wouldn't say the NFL in Toronto is done. It's not as if it was coming soon, especially considering Rogers would have to allow a single person to "own" the team and that's obviously problematic.

We'll see though, Toronto could certainly support a team but they'll likely be second fiddle to the Leafs and Blue Jays. Baseball is really the only sport that can captivate Toronto besides hockey, doubt football could do that.
Everything I've heard from the Bills organization is that there's great interest, on both sides, in renewing the Bills in Toronto deal and the only holdup was the Bills new lease. Now that it's taken care of you can expect the particulars of the new Toronto deal to be worked out in short order.

Certainly it'll be for less per game than they paid in the current deal, but it's far from done.

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12-24-2012, 06:16 PM
  #55
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Serious question.... What if for the past 4-5 years the Bills had the roster/success of say the Saints? Or even someone that hasn't won the superbowl but still with star power... Like the Eagles/Ravens/Texans. Would that have made any difference in how this experiment played out?

The Bills have one the worst records over the past 5 years - 10 years.

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12-24-2012, 06:29 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
A real interesting play forsure.

Looking strictly from a franchise valuation standpoint, the Bills shell out $35m cash in this deal... and give up the flexibility of moving the team for basically 8 years. They get $130m of renovations to their stadium. Was the $95m of taxpayer money worth giving up the flexibility to move the team? I personally don't think so. Yeah, they (presumably) make a little bit more money every year, but I think that franchise gains more than $95m of value by having (relative) freedom of movement. That being said, I don't have access to all the details.

As for the NFL in Toronto, this does seem like the end, for now. I think they've realized that Toronto fans are not about to go and shell out hundreds of dollars a ticket to watch the Buffalo Bills. We're a hockey city, and more importantly elitist. As long as the team remained called the Buffalo Bills, they were destined to fail in Toronto.
The Bills current owner does not care about the flexibility to move. He is keeping the team in Buffalo come hell or high water.

The only question of the team moving is when he dies (He's 94 now) and a new owner takes over. Ralph Wilson is not leaving the team to his children so it will go into trust and be sold from there.

Once that new owner takes over the team, its obviously anyone's guess what will happen, but this $400 million penalty is all about protection from the next owner, not the current owner. Ralph really doesn't care what the mobility or lack of mobility does for franchise value.

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12-24-2012, 06:32 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Selanne00008 View Post
Serious question.... What if for the past 4-5 years the Bills had the roster/success of say the Saints? Or even someone that hasn't won the superbowl but still with star power... Like the Eagles/Ravens/Texans. Would that have made any difference in how this experiment played out?

The Bills have one the worst records over the past 5 years - 10 years.
I think it would have made some difference but I just don't think Toronto will ever embrace a 'guest' team, regardless of how good they are.

If a team (Bills or otherwise) was to make a full time move to Toronto and become the Toronto Footballers I think you'd see markedly different attendance and fan support.

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12-24-2012, 07:25 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
The Bills current owner does not care about the flexibility to move. He is keeping the team in Buffalo come hell or high water.

The only question of the team moving is when he dies (He's 94 now) and a new owner takes over. Ralph Wilson is not leaving the team to his children so it will go into trust and be sold from there.

Once that new owner takes over the team, its obviously anyone's guess what will happen, but this $400 million penalty is all about protection from the next owner, not the current owner. Ralph really doesn't care what the mobility or lack of mobility does for franchise value.
No he doesn't. The Bills current owner is 94 years old, and if he cares about anything at this point, it's winning.

Presumably, he's got somebody running the team who's substantially younger than he is, and looking out for the best interest of the trust which the team will go into. That trust will seek to maximize franchise value, and freedom of movement will certainly help it.

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12-24-2012, 07:44 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No he doesn't. The Bills current owner is 94 years old, and if he cares about anything at this point, it's winning.

Presumably, he's got somebody running the team who's substantially younger than he is, and looking out for the best interest of the trust which the team will go into. That trust will seek to maximize franchise value, and freedom of movement will certainly help it.
Clearly you don't follow the Bills. The Bills have no President or person who is over all operations aside from Ralph Wilson. They have Russ Brandon who is the CEO and is in charge of the business side (selling tickets, concessions, etc.) and they have Buddy Nix who is General Manager and in charge of the football side, he's 73. Those two sides report to Mr. Wilson, not to each other.

There isn't currently a trust operating the team and there will not be until Mr. Wilson passes. He hasn't shown even the slightest interest in what happens to it afterwords or in maximizing the value for his heirs. Pretty much his only commitment has been to keep the team here in Buffalo.

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12-24-2012, 07:47 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
Everything I've heard from the Bills organization is that there's great interest, on both sides, in renewing the Bills in Toronto deal and the only holdup was the Bills new lease. Now that it's taken care of you can expect the particulars of the new Toronto deal to be worked out in short order.

Certainly it'll be for less per game than they paid in the current deal, but it's far from done.
It would be nothing more than ego and failure to admit defeat on Rogers part if they continue this series with the Bills.

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12-24-2012, 07:51 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by blueandgoldguy View Post
It would be nothing more than ego and failure to admit defeat on Rogers part if they continue this series with the Bills.
And yet, every week, the Bills CEO comes on the radio and says that negotiations are ongoing and the the only holdup was the lease deal.

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12-24-2012, 08:04 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
Clearly you don't follow the Bills. The Bills have no President or person who is over all operations aside from Ralph Wilson. They have Russ Brandon who is the CEO and is in charge of the business side (selling tickets, concessions, etc.) and they have Buddy Nix who is General Manager and in charge of the football side, he's 73. Those two sides report to Mr. Wilson, not to each other.

There isn't currently a trust operating the team and there will not be until Mr. Wilson passes. He hasn't shown even the slightest interest in what happens to it afterwords or in maximizing the value for his heirs. Pretty much his only commitment has been to keep the team here in Buffalo.
Russ Brandon would be the guy I'm referring to. You're nuts if you don't think this lease agreement has his hands all over it.

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12-24-2012, 08:10 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Russ Brandon would be the guy I'm referring to. You're nuts if you don't think this lease agreement has his hands all over it.
Of course it has his hands all over it, he was the principal negotiator on the Bills side.

However, being in charge of day to day operations as CEO of a team is a far cry from working to maximize value/mobility of the franchise.

Russ seems like a smart guy and a good businessman, but ultimately he's an employee of the Bills, not an owner. He isn't looking out for the good of the trust that the team will go into, he's looking after the current owner, which implies looking out for what's best for the Bills *in Buffalo*

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12-24-2012, 08:24 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
Of course it has his hands all over it, he was the principal negotiator on the Bills side.

However, being in charge of day to day operations as CEO of a team is a far cry from working to maximize value/mobility of the franchise.

Russ seems like a smart guy and a good businessman, but ultimately he's an employee of the Bills, not an owner. He isn't looking out for the good of the trust that the team will go into, he's looking after the current owner, which implies looking out for what's best for the Bills *in Buffalo*

What do you think a CEO's job is?

Hint: To maximize value for shareholders. The Bills aren't a non-profit.

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12-24-2012, 09:40 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
What do you think a CEO's job is?

Hint: To maximize value for shareholders. The Bills aren't a non-profit.
They don't have shareholders. They have a singular owner who (all evidence points to this) isn't concerned with the value of the team once it passes from his hands.

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Old
12-25-2012, 12:49 AM
  #66
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The Bills in Toronto series will probably continue...

and continue to lose Rogers a whole lot of money.

Rogers paid 80 million for 5 regular season games.. I don't believe a single one of those games sold out... in fact the last game only did 40k

I also don't see Toronto building an 80k Stadium anytime soon for NFL football...that city is broke.

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12-26-2012, 12:19 AM
  #67
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The problem with the Toronto series was that Bills season ticket holders were not given first option. I've been a Bills season ticket holder for 20 yrs. I had to wait until the Argo fans were given first crack, bought up most of the cheap seats, and when I had a chance, the only tickets available to me were almost $200 per seat. I was like "go blank yourself"

If they must play in Toronto then Bills season ticket holders should have first option at the tickets as part of season ticket invoice. Give me the option of "The Ralph" package (only games played in OP) or "The Toronto" package (all Bills games). These would include any preseason games.

You would get more Bills fans at these games

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12-26-2012, 01:48 AM
  #68
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Good.

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12-26-2012, 08:11 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
I don't understand why its so hard to be simply a fan of football? The seasons overlap by 2 months so it's not even hard to follow both.

The Bills in Toronto experiment failed bad and overall, football in Toronto is not in the greatest shape. I really wish the BMO shenanigans had not happened to allow the Argos to not play there. The city should have stopped the soccer exclusivity.
There is just too much dead time between plays. A high school game can be exciting because it has more of a flow. What I don't get is people think soccer is boring, yet it has constant flow. Imagine if soccer stopped play everytime one player passed the ball to his teamate or when the opposing team intercepted a pass.

Yes the city should keep BMO as a soccer only venue. It sucks watching a soccer game with the football lines all over the field. Imagine watching a hockey game with curling markings all over the ice.. It just would make it look mickey mouse. Plus football tears up a real grass surface.


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Old
12-27-2012, 11:43 AM
  #70
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NFL will have a team in Toronto someday, it's inevitable. After LA, that's the single biggest pot of money sitting out there for the NFL.

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12-27-2012, 02:44 PM
  #71
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Maybe the Bills in Toronto series failed because the atmosphere and enviornment was AWFUL. I've never seen a crowd so bored/dead in my entire life. You can go ahead and blame it on the Bills not being very good, however, having been to NFL games in Cleveland, Buffalo, Kansas City, and New England all during thsoe respective teams losing seasons it wasn't even a comparison.

Even in cities where the NFL team is 1-12 going into a game the gameday atmosphere was more alive. I knew I shouldn't expect the craziness of Buffalo games but I didn't think it would rival the ghostown known as the ACC during Leafs games.

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12-27-2012, 03:24 PM
  #72
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Maybe the Bills in Toronto series failed because the atmosphere and enviornment was AWFUL. I've never seen a crowd so bored/dead in my entire life. You can go ahead and blame it on the Bills not being very good, however, having been to NFL games in Cleveland, Buffalo, Kansas City, and New England all during thsoe respective teams losing seasons it wasn't even a comparison.

Even in cities where the NFL team is 1-12 going into a game the gameday atmosphere was more alive. I knew I shouldn't expect the craziness of Buffalo games but I didn't think it would rival the ghostown known as the ACC during Leafs games.
I think its because Bills fans in Toronto, just go to Buffalo. There are so many bus tours that leave the GTA every Sunday morning. The people who will go to the Rogers center are the casual fan/corporate fan. Defiantly not the same type of crowed.

I went to the Steelers pre season game in Toronto, and it was fun, everyone was drunk, yelling, cheering, towels going. Never been to a bills game here, but doesn't look the same on TV.

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12-27-2012, 03:44 PM
  #73
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I think its because Bills fans in Toronto, just go to Buffalo. There are so many bus tours that leave the GTA every Sunday morning. The people who will go to the Rogers center are the casual fan/corporate fan. Defiantly not the same type of crowed.

I went to the Steelers pre season game in Toronto, and it was fun, everyone was drunk, yelling, cheering, towels going. Never been to a bills game here, but doesn't look the same on TV.
Even Psy couldn't get us going, a couple of times during his song he injected C'mon Toronto, Toronto...

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Old
12-27-2012, 07:31 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by FakeKidPoker View Post
The Bills in Toronto series will probably continue...

and continue to lose Rogers a whole lot of money.

Rogers paid 80 million for 5 regular season games.. I don't believe a single one of those games sold out... in fact the last game only did 40k

I also don't see Toronto building an 80k Stadium anytime soon for NFL football...that city is broke.
Not broke, just inept. Toronto has an incredibly strong economic base, with an incredibly inept political class managing it.

The city has more social programs than any other city in the GTA, yet has (by far) the lowest property tax rates. The result is a self-inflicted structural deficit and after years of underfunding in the name of tax freezes, a massive infrastructure one.

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12-27-2012, 09:46 PM
  #75
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Toronto will be a serious relocation candidate when they have a stadium, but I just don't think it will be the Bills. I think there are multiple American cities ahead of them, though, and that's not even counting LA (which is inevitable). I think you'd see San Antonio and Orlando ahead of them, to be honest.

Tom Golisano and Terry Pegula have both said they'd pull a Paul Allen and buy the Bills (if the price was right, of course) out of a sense of civic responsibility. I have no reason to doubt either of them.

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