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F Chris Kreider (2009, 19th overall, NY Rangers) II -"What's the big deal," you ask?

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Old
12-27-2012, 11:14 PM
  #51
GWOW
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Originally Posted by LatvianTwist View Post
Why is it that so many people talk about him like an elite level prospect?
1) He was the 19th overall pick (11th forward taken) in his draft year
2) He was the leading scorer on an NCAA Championship winning team
3) Scored 10 goals in 13 WJC games, leading Team USA in goal scoring in 2010 and 2011
4) Was the youngest player chosen to play for Team USA at the 2010 World Championships

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His stats anywhere aren't exactly impressive, especially this year in the AHL.
See above, and:

1) Tied with two others for most goals by a rookie in 2012 postseason
2) Lead all rookies in 2012 postseason in GPG
3) Tied for second among rookies in 2012 playoff GWG
4) Finished fourth in rookie scoring in 2012 playoffs

Burmistrov has two goals in 22 games. Leblanc has three goals in 16 games. Henrique has just 8 points in 16 games. Colborne has two goals in 22 games. Ellis has just six points and no goals in 14 games. Markstrom is 36th in the AHL in GAA. Kassian has just six goals in 24 games. Most of those guys were ranked ahead of Kreider in previous THN Future Watch's. Henrique was the Calder runner up last year.

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I've seen many of you guys point to his playoff performance as to a reason why he's an elite prospect, and yet he didn't even put up half a point per game.
Out of the 44 rookies who played in the 2012 postseason, he finished 6th in PPG (four players ahead of him only played in two or less games). Three additional players ahead of him didnt get past the second round and played 6-7 less games.

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He was also a -4 which seems very low for a team that had as much success as New York, and the 5-6 games I did catch I barely noticed him.
By pure coincidence, you must have missed the games where he played well. Besides, he was making his NHL debut. Riley Smith was -3 in just three NHL games.

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I just don't get the hype. Reilly Smith, from the Stars, has not only put up just as impressive stats in college (in a comparable league), and is tearing up the AHL right now with 10 goals in the last 12 games (much more impressive than Kreider's season so far), and yet you'd be hard pressed to find top 100 prospect lists including R. Smith. His NHL showing wasn't very impressive, but we had some very questionable coaching decisions that messed up his stats and NHL chances.
You consider Reilly Smith scoring one goal in 17 games to start the season impressive? I don't.

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So could someone explain to me what makes him so special?
Hopefully, I just did.


Last edited by GWOW: 12-27-2012 at 11:25 PM.
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Old
12-27-2012, 11:23 PM
  #52
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In Hartford, Kreider plays with Kyle Jean and Brandon Segal. Pretty big drop off from being centered by Brad Richards of Derek Stepan.

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12-27-2012, 11:24 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by MetalGodAOD View Post
Really?

We've had plenty of questioning of Kreider's lack of production in the Whale thread, why does this board turn into a pack mentality the minute a non-Rangers fan suggests the same thing a lot of our own have been? Say what you want about his frame and project-ability, you can't deny a lot of us having been making excuses about his lack of scoring on the Whale.

People were slotting Kreider in for 50-60 points and a Calder after last playoffs. Now we see maybe he's not quite as ready as we thought. What's wrong with another fan-base saying the same thing? It's a valid argument given his play on the Whale this year. Not just stats, including watching him play down there.
First off, that wasn't the point of the thread. Don't play naive.

Second, since "stats" are brought up, how about this: leading a National Champion in goals, leading a Gold Medal team at the WJC in goals, a Bronze Medal winner in goals, NCAA tournament MVPs, youngest invited to men's WC, 2nd in goals in the playoffs on a Conference Finalist.

He has a slow start playing on an overall bad team in Hartford and suddenly he's "Sjostrom with more size".

Skjei not making team USA roster as an 18 year old makes him a bust.

Give me a ****ing break.

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12-27-2012, 11:34 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SupersonicMonkey View Post
First off, that wasn't the point of the thread. Don't play naive.
It actually was. I still find it hard to believe that more people aren't getting that... I'm not trying to belittle Kreider or bump up R. Smith. Is that so hard to understand?

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12-27-2012, 11:40 PM
  #55
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I'm done defending Kreider. It's ridiculous at this point.

70% of the people on this website have absolutely zero idea what they're talking about if it doesn't involve their favorite team. You simply cannot judge Kreider on stats.

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12-27-2012, 11:48 PM
  #56
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I'm moving this to the prospects board. I'll leave a redirect here for 24 hours.

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12-28-2012, 12:28 AM
  #57
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Watched him play 4 times this year and the only thing that impressed me was his speed. Didn't even know about his low production until 2 weeks ago. He never showed up defensively. He would disappear offensively. He tried to do too much with the puck when he had it. I didn't see anything that screamed elite prospect the way other AHLers have.

Stats aren't everything yes, but you'd think that if he was a 50-60 point Calder threat the way some were pumping him up to be, you'd think he'd put SOME points up. I'd personally find it troubling if we had an "elite" prospect who couldn't take it upon himself to make his bad team a little better on his own back. The bad team excuse can only take you so far. Don't mean to prospect plug but Norfolk is one of the poorer performers in the AHL this year and Peter Holland is still scoring at a point per game pace. I wouldn't even call him elite, but somehow he manages to get the points. Why can't Kreider. I know some Rangers fans are concerned, but what is strange to me is why there are so many Kreider fans who think that nothing's wrong.

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12-28-2012, 12:53 AM
  #58
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Sorry, but the only thing Rangers fans should care about is the fact that Kreider is playing hockey and staying in shape.

Considering the Rangers recent track record with player development, I'm going to worry about Kreider some other time.

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12-28-2012, 01:14 AM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GWOW View Post
Sorry, but the only thing Rangers fans should care about is the fact that Kreider is playing hockey and staying in shape.

Considering the Rangers recent track record with player development, I'm going to worry about Kreider some other time.
I would not be shocked at all if Rangers brass told him to take it easy and just stay in shape. No need to go all out in the AHL.

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12-28-2012, 01:30 AM
  #60
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I'm not sold on Kreider, but I'm not ready to write him off either. I think he's a prospect with a lot of natural talent and a lot of ability, but I have yet to see him dominate a game like he could. He was good against the Devils (probably the Rangers' best forward, but their forwards were all pretty weak in that series) and has looked very pedestrian in the AHL from what I've seen. If he puts it together he could become a Rick Nash, but he could just as easily become a Viktor Stalberg.

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12-28-2012, 01:40 AM
  #61
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I don't think it's just the Rangers fans. There were lots of people (like Pierre McGuire) making very very grand remarks about Kreider during the playoffs last season.

Maybe they jumped the gun, who knows. But it isn't like the Rangers fans just fabricated all of the hype themselves.

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12-28-2012, 02:46 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by caps4cup View Post
Kreider is all speed. Nothing else. He's like Viktor Stalberg lite.

As much as I'd like to disagree, this isn't a terribly wrong assessment. He's got speed and also a great shot and a lot of size, but not much of anything else.

Even Hartford color commentators have mentioned the other day that Torts told Kreider to "be fast" and that's all he had to do in the playoffs, but now he's having trouble with an expanded role in Hartford.

Because he was a rookie 2 days out of college, we all forgave his mistakes and marveled every time he did anything right. The bar for him last year was terribly low. He cleared that bar and scored a few goals. But there were several games where he was simply not any good.

Now in Hartford, he's just bad more often than not. He take the puck, runs up with it, runs into a defenseman, loses the puck and then disappears for the next 15 minutes. Then he has one more of these rushes.

Christian Thomas is also less than impressive so far in Hartford, but at least he's using his shot in a much more effective way and generally looks better than Kreider.

The guy is big, fast and has a good shot, which excites us all, but let's keep in mind that hockey sense is probably the most important thing for a player. Look at Stepan. He's not awfully fast, he's not huge and he doesn't blast the puck, and yet, he's a very solid second liner because he's so smart. Kreider, on the other hand, is making AHL defensemen look like impenetrable walls into which he runs into head first.

Despite being big, he's not using his size.

Despite being fast, he's not using it to breeze by his opponents.

Despite having a great shot, he's not scoring, with even Tommy Grant scoring more while playing on the 4th line.

I hope all this will change, but if more people subscribed to AHL Live or went to games, there would be a lot of people here disappointed with his performance this year.

His utter lack of stickhandling ability isn't helpful either. I'm not saying he should do spin-o-ramas like Kovalev did at the same age, but hell, how about moving to the side so that you go around the defenseman instead of into him, causing turnovers?


Last edited by Beacon: 12-28-2012 at 02:53 AM.
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12-28-2012, 02:49 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by DuckJet View Post
Watched him play 4 times this year and the only thing that impressed me was his speed. Didn't even know about his low production until 2 weeks ago. He never showed up defensively. He would disappear offensively. He tried to do too much with the puck when he had it. I didn't see anything that screamed elite prospect the way other AHLers have.

Stats aren't everything yes, but you'd think that if he was a 50-60 point Calder threat the way some were pumping him up to be, you'd think he'd put SOME points up. I'd personally find it troubling if we had an "elite" prospect who couldn't take it upon himself to make his bad team a little better on his own back. The bad team excuse can only take you so far. Don't mean to prospect plug but Norfolk is one of the poorer performers in the AHL this year and Peter Holland is still scoring at a point per game pace. I wouldn't even call him elite, but somehow he manages to get the points. Why can't Kreider. I know some Rangers fans are concerned, but what is strange to me is why there are so many Kreider fans who think that nothing's wrong.
All of this.

As I'm sure you all know, I'm not Kreider's biggest fan. But some of these excuses are terrible.

1. Somebody explain to me why there are ten players scoring at better rates than Kreider? I know that CT is a horrible team (been following the AHL religiously during the lockout, seen half a dozen Whale games), but ten players are scoring at better rates, and honestly Kreider is invisible every time he plays, to the point that I'm questioning if he's playing.

2. Kreider has never had elite production at the college level. You can whine that he didn't get the ice time, whatever, but when he's a junior he's getting the ice time, and he still scored at only a PPG. As a guy with elite speed and elite size playing on an AMAZING team, he should be able to score at a better rate than that as a junior. Plenty of college hockey teams give ice time seniority. It's not just BC and it's not just Kreider who's a 'victim' of that kind of coaching. Even in the WJC, where everyone lauds his production, he scored most of his points against weak, relegation-types of teams. It's funny how Rangers fans will use a 13 games sample of statistics to pump Kreider, but almost 30 games of AHL play is not valid.

So how is it, that despite never putting up huge offensive numbers in college, he's going to become a 70 point player in the NHL, like a couple of Rangers fans in this thread have claimed? I thought he was a complimentary player like a couple of different Rangers fans said... But this is confusing, since only 21 players scored 70 points last season. So Kreider would need some REALLY elite linemates to hit anywhere close to 70.

3. Now I'll hear about "the Rangers org probably told him to take it easy and stay in shape and healthy". Are you all really deluding yourself on this argument? How about Ryan Nugent-Hopkins? Sean Couturier? Oliver Ekman-Larsson? Jordan Eberle? Brayden Schenn? Justin Faulk? All of these guys have much more reason to not need to give it their all and produce at an elite level in the AHL, and yet they do. Most of them have injury histories too. Why haven't they been told to take it easy and stay healthy like Kreider? That argument holds absolutely no water and anyone who is tricking themselves into believing it is certainly reaching a level of desperation.

4. Now's usually the time where Rangers fans run to the playoff numbers. Well here's the thing, he was shooting at 17%, and starting in the offensive zone 70% of the time. He was put in excellent position to put up points, and was aided by unsustainable shooting percentage. Like I've pointed out before, regress that number and he's at about 3 goals in the 18 games.

5. Now you'll accuse me of not watching Kreider in the playoffs. You'd be quite wrong. See, I'd been a fan of Kreider for a while. I've always been a believer in his physical skillset as a sure bet to be a solid top-9 NHL player and a probable 2nd liner. I've never bought in the idea that he has 'elite' potential. This is from watching him at BC, watching every US WJC game he was in, watching the playoffs last season, and watching several Whale games this fall/winter. I'm bloody sick of people accusing me of not watching Kreider just because I supplement my reports with stats, and because I'm a fan of using basic advanced stats for context.

I don't see elite. I see a great skater, great physical player, great shot, above average defensive player (in a couple years), limited offensive upside. I don't see above average stick-handling. I don't see above average vision, or about average playmaking, or above average hockey IQ. I do see 30-25 in a good year, 25-20 most years. For reference, 45 points is decent second line production, even though people expect 60 points out of everyone on their second line.

The thing that really bites me about Kreider discussions is that Rangers fans insist they know more about Kreider than I do, based on a biased viewing of 18 games and the relative difference between Kreider and other Rangers prospects. They just can't admit that maybe Kreider isn't going to score 30 goals next season, maybe he won't win a Hart trophy. Ducks fans (back me up on this, DuckJet) have no problem admitting that maybe Etem isn't going to be a 40 goal-scorer in the NHL, that his play in the AHL (until semi-recently) wasn't inspiring, and that maybe he tops out as a 2nd liner. And before we have a pissing match it's definitely not just Rangers fans guilty of this, but with all the Kreider hype I think they might be the most frequent ones.

TL;DR. I've seen Kreider play at every level. He does not have elite upside like most Rangers fans will insist. And the reason I'm so vehemently in every Kreider thread on HF is because of some of the ridiculous excuses Rangers fans have come up with to explain his production.

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12-28-2012, 03:04 AM
  #64
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As a hardcore Rangers fan, as someone who subscribes to AHL Live and watches all the Hartford games and watched all the Rangers playoff games last year, as someone who still has the 2010 and the 2011 Team USA World Junior Championship games on his DVR and who watched all the televised BC games while Kreider was there, I can't help but agree with every word that TheJuxtaposer just wrote.


All this talk about ignoring stats and focusing on Kreider's play is BS from people who do not actually see him play. They remember his few good games last spring and forget his bad ones, and don't have a clue what he's really doing in Hartford, always coming up with BS explanations that he's better suited for the NHL than any other place and "if only people saw him play, they would understand his greatness."

This last quote is one of those lies that is believed by so many people because it's been repeated a billion times. But it's one person who isn't watching Kreider telling it to the other who repeats it to the third person who isn't watching Kreider and so on.

People need to go and watch him. He's just not looking good in Hartford. "If you only saw him play" ... you'd know that he's sucking it up in Hartford.

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12-28-2012, 03:20 AM
  #65
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He strikes me as a guy with alot of tools, but does not quite have the tool box just yet

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12-28-2012, 06:02 AM
  #66
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He has tools but no toolbox, as people here would call it.

Oh the guy just above me wrote it

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12-28-2012, 06:32 AM
  #67
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I think the thing that make ppl hype kreider is the fact he has to potential to score 30 goals a season only 30 players scored 30 last year
However I don't see kreider as the sort of player to dominate his opponents more of a player who will be a benafishary of good line mates he is not the sort of player that will get more assists than goals I think for him it will be the otherway round but I think 30-20 for kreider I will be over the moon with 20-15 I see as his lowest

As ppl have said he is all the s's
Size
Speed
Shot

But I don't c him as the kind of player that has an amazing hockey IQ
But how many teams wouldn't want a prospect with the potential to score 30 as there isn't many out there But must admit some of the excuses iv heard r stupid management hav told him to go easy incase of injuries lol but put kreider with players who can get him puck in good areas to make his shot effective and the goals will take care of them selfs

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12-28-2012, 08:02 AM
  #68
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Kreider seems to be the kind of player that produces better numbers playing with better line-mates.

As mentioned above, he's not someone that is going to make the players around him better. It's not his game.

Kreider is a finisher that needs his line-mates to carry the puck and get the puck to him.

He's still got alot of work to do, but the size, speed and shot scream NHL ready. The concern I have is his hockey smarts.

Will he understand how to create the seperation needed to get that shot off?

Will he realize that he will have a size advantage over quite a few defenceman and park his big body in front of the net imposing his will on defenceman?

in order for Kreider to excel at the NHL level, he's going to need a Brad Richards or a Derek Stepan as his center. Putting Kreider with Brian Boyle is not going to do anything for either the player or the team.

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12-28-2012, 09:11 AM
  #69
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I think Rangers fan see Kreider as a 25-30 goal scorer. In fact, we've always seen him like that.

I don't see how a subpar quarter of a season in the AHL nullifies those expectations.

Personally, I think Kreider just misses being in college and having fun. The first year out of college always sucks for everybody. The kid went from playing for a dominant winning team and busted his ass graduating college in three years to play in the NHL, and all of a sudden he finds himself on a garbage team instead of playing for the Rangers.

But like I said before, I really could care less about the friggin AHL. Kreider isn't expect to be some savior on the Rangers. He's going to get plugged into a great team environment, a winning environment and a coach and organization who's supported him from day one.

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12-28-2012, 09:16 AM
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Seems like a pretty typical Kreider thread.

1. Same posters saying, "Oh, I'm not hating. I've been a fan of Kreider.." or "I wish I was wrong, but he's playing so badly.." or "I've REALLY seen him. Nobody else is REALLY watching him.."? Check.

2. People taking shots at the Rangers fan base who are singlehandedly driving the the hype machine, even though dozens of media outlets, scouts, and other individuals have raved about Kreider's overall potential? Check.

3. Posters naming one of their own struggling prospects to show how unbiased they are? Check.

4. Claims being made about how he's never put up huge numbers, and thus will never amount to anything, as if no other player in history has been average in college only to still become a very good NHLer. Check.



Any reasonable fan with a half-decent knowledge of Kreider realizes he has plenty of things to improve on. Hell, even Tortorella mentioned that about a thousand times in pressers last season. Stop acting as if Rangers fans are the only people who think highly of him, and that the dozen posters who think he can do know wrong represent the majority. You can't make any definitive statements about a kid after 18 games, and you sure as hell can't start saying, "Ha! I told you so! All of you!" after 30 games on team that would probably get thrashed by a beer-league squad.

Kreider has always needed someone to get him the puck. He's not a one-on-one dangler, he's not a superior play maker, he's a kid with great speed, size, and a lethal shot. Give him a guy who can feed him the puck, and you can see what he's capable of. Stick him on a team with guys who pass as well as my cat, and you see how he struggles. However, I'll never understand why so many people continue to see the former as "an excuse" while the latter is treated as the end-all-be-all of scouting reports.

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12-28-2012, 09:43 AM
  #71
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I like Kreider as a prospect to be honest. He showed a lot of potential in the playoffs this past year, which was even more impressive given the fact that was the first time he suited up for the Rangers and was unfamiliar with his teammates. Having said that, his potential is exactly that, potential. While some day he could wind up being that 70-80 point player, he has a long way to go until that point. I think he's the type of player that we'll need to wait 4-5 years to see how he develops and whether he shows the capability of filling out his potential or dropping off before that point.

Short and sweet, he's a great prospect but has a long way to go.

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12-28-2012, 09:45 AM
  #72
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I dont see what the hype around him is either. Not saying he wont be a top 6er but I don't see 1st line potential in him.

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12-28-2012, 09:56 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
Kreider seems to be the kind of player that produces better numbers playing with better linemates

This is a BS argument. The AHL has better, tougher, faster, more experienced, better coached players than the WJC. So why are 13 WJC games important, but almost 30 AHL games are irrelevant? Kreider is sucking more than Jenna Jamison this year, but because nobody is watching AHL hockey, it is completely unnoticed and excuses are given.

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12-28-2012, 09:57 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Callys Chicken Parm View Post
And there's a reason why they are the only two you can think of. It doesn't happen often because most players are not worthy of the task. Tony Amonte is another one. He was pretty good, right?

He, along with Hagelin, is one of the fastest players in the league, and he's 6'3 230 lbs. He also has a wicked shot and is very physical. The only thing he is lacking in is hockey sense. He's not always making smart plays, but that can be taught. He has every tool that a hockey player could dream of having.
I'd say it's less that most players are not worthy of the task and more that most players who are worthy of the task have played at least one regular season game in the NHL. Being able to make such a substantial transition without failing miserably is impressive, but if a prospect is truly playing at an NHL level of ability at a given age, then he'll have played in the regular season as well.

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12-28-2012, 09:58 AM
  #75
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Juxtaposer pretty much nailed it on the head. He's never been a big producer over any decent sample size. Yet people see size and speed and completely forget about that, and instead come up with all kinds of BS excuses for him.

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