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Old
12-27-2012, 05:00 PM
  #51
Zen Arcade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
No from the Leafs.

Changing Letang to Neal would get it done, but I'm not sure how the Pens feel about it.
Why?

You're just shifting players and ending up with the same problems you had before. Only instead of Kessel being the goalscorer with no one to get him the puck, it's Neal.

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12-27-2012, 05:41 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
Pens fans are gonna be PISSED that I included Letang, but Gardiner will become almost as good, if not as good, as Letang in the long run.
We aren't rebuilding. No reason to get a younger guy who can't fill in for Letang next season. Pens say no deal. The only player that I would be interested in is Kessel, and we don't have enough available pieces for him.

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12-27-2012, 07:51 PM
  #53
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The way I see it the Maple Leafs are giving up alot of their offense with Kessel and I can't see the Penguins trading away Fleury. So I say no deal for either team.

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Old
12-27-2012, 07:54 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphllp View Post
id probably do it, losing kessel is tough though, hes one of the top wingers in the game. but getting maf and letang make up for it
that's how I see it... i'd probably pull the trigger. doubt Pitts would though.

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:23 PM
  #55
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If I'm dealing Letang to get a winger for Sid, it'll be for Corey Perry not Phil Kessel.

Kessel is a good player but he's not the right style of player for Sid or Bylsma.

Also, I'd rather have a #1 Dman instead of another top flight winger. Pens need Letang more than they need another winger that can score. Sid could play with Kunitz and Dupuis and still lead the league in scoring.

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12-27-2012, 09:02 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by penguins2946 View Post
I never said you compared him to Neal, I was doing that comparison because everyone thinks Neal is so good right now.



Oh no, I used facts and statistics, I guess that means I'm wrong. At least defend Fleury a little bit. You saying "I'm not even going to bother with this one" just shows that you can't refute it.



I would put Gardiner as a number 2 or 3 D right now. Yeah, it would probably hurt in the short run, but in the long run, it would save us a bunch of money that we would have spent on Letang and would help us when the likes of Dumoulin/Maatta/Despres get up here. Our D right now isn't the best, even with Letang. I'd rather have a younger D corpse in the future than have Letang right now, mainly because we won't be winning the cup now, but we may in a few years.
I can refute this very easily. First off, stats are just a small part of determining the quality of the goalie. The stats you refer to are not equal in any way due to the fact that they play on different teams, in different systems, with different things being asked of them. Fleury sees less shots than most goalies, but the quality shots he faces are usually higher than most teams because when the Pens D breaks down, it really breaks down! For this reason, it is much harder to have a high save percentage. Take a team like NY or PHX who gives up a bunch of shots, but from the perimeter, and their goalies have a better chance of putting up better stats.

Second, I think if you questioned the 30 NHL GMs if they would give up Fleury to get Reimer straight up, they would probably ask you how much you smoked before you thought it was a good idea.

That is sufficient to refute your claim.

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:05 AM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguins2946* View Post
I would put Gardiner as a number 2 or 3 D right now. Yeah, it would probably hurt in the short run, but in the long run, it would save us a bunch of money that we would have spent on Letang and would help us when the likes of Dumoulin/Maatta/Despres get up here. Our D right now isn't the best, even with Letang. I'd rather have a younger D corpse in the future than have Letang right now, mainly because we won't be winning the cup now, but we may in a few years.
That's the worst reasoning I've ever heard.

A contender with a very suspect blueline should trade away their 25 year old #1 defenseman - the only active defenseman other than Weber and Chara to finish Top 10 in Norris voting the past 2 seasons - because they don't want to pay him what he's worth on his next contract, and they want to make room for lesser prospects whose upside aren't nearly as high as what Letang is now?

Seriously man, you need to let these ideas marinate a little longer before showing them the light of day.

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:13 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
Bold 1:

Riiiighhhhttttt. He's easily in top-5 conversation. Letang is a pivotal piece to Pittsburgh and there is NO reason to even entertain offers for him unless another young #1 defenceman is coming back.
BAHAHA. Top 5... lol

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12-28-2012, 01:43 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
BAHAHA. Top 5... lol
He's a top 5 offensive defenseman, and I don't know a team that wouldn't want what he brings to the table.

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:43 AM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
BAHAHA. Top 5... lol
About this time last year the hockey analysts on TSN had a poll of who is the better defenseman, and it included Chara, Weber, Letang and Karlsson. I can't remember who, maybe McKenzie, but they picked Letang. I may not agree with that, but this was a top 4 poll, by guys who live hockey. I think I'll take their opinion over anyone's on here.

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:54 AM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 12345 View Post
BAHAHA. Top 5... lol
Like I said earlier, Letang's the only active defenseman other than Weber and Chara to finish Top 10 in Norris voting the past 2 years.

So keep laughing. It says more about the poster than it does the subject.

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Old
12-28-2012, 08:52 AM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
Bold 1:

Riiiighhhhttttt. He's easily in top-5 conversation. Letang is a pivotal piece to Pittsburgh and there is NO reason to even entertain offers for him unless another young #1 defenceman is coming back.

Bold 2:

I'd love to hear this....

Bold 3:

The Penguins work their cap situation around it's core, specially Geno and Sid, so no way do they let cap space be a factor in keeping them. Sid is signed for the rest of his career and Malkin is about to follow suit. Letang will have a blank check and is expected to be paid like the #1 D-Man he is. We are loaded on D-prospects and will be able to put a formidable lineup out there with defenders on ELC's.
I think Letang is very good, and probably top 10, but I don't have him in the top 5 at all, but that is just semantics really

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Old
12-28-2012, 09:10 AM
  #63
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JVR+Liles+Kulemin for Neal+1st

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Old
12-28-2012, 09:17 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
JVR+Liles+Kulemin for Neal+1st
These are not deals the Leafs can/should be making. With Franson unsigned....we have

Phaneuf/Gunner
???/Gardiner
Komi/???.....after your deal. You have also traded 2 of our top 6 wingers for 1 and still haven't addressed either 1G or 1C.

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:02 AM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBenSF View Post
He's a top 5 offensive defenseman, and I don't know a team that wouldn't want what he brings to the table.

Letang Scoring rank among defensemen in the past 5 season

2011-2012 - 42pts - 17th
2010-2011 - 50pts - 9th
2009-2010 - 27pts - 61th
2008-2009 - 33pts - 43th
2007-2008 - 17pts - 99th

is it just me, or other people would expect more offensive from a top 5 NHL offensive defenseman playing with one of the top offensive team in the league?

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:19 AM
  #66
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The Penguin's issues are at the blueline so I don't see how trading away the #1 defenseman and the starting goaltender for unneeded fire power would help.

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:26 AM
  #67
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Not interested in losing Letang or MAF, not interested in Gardiner if we have to move Morrow, and definitely not interested in Reimer.

Basically, there's no way.

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12-28-2012, 10:38 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Letang Scoring rank among defensemen in the past 5 season

2011-2012 - 42pts - 17th
2010-2011 - 50pts - 9th
2009-2010 - 27pts - 61th
2008-2009 - 33pts - 43th
2007-2008 - 17pts - 99th

is it just me, or other people would expect more offensive from a top 5 NHL offensive defenseman playing with one of the top offensive team in the league?
If you were inclined to introduce some representative context, like the fact that Letang only broke out in 2010 but his team was missing their top 2 centers/sole creative forwards for half the '10-'11 season, and the fact that he only played 51 games in '11-'12 (and produced at a better pace than every defenseman other than Karlsson), then the picture would probably become clearer for you.

But of course, you already knew those things. You just chose to overlook them.

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:45 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
These are not deals the Leafs can/should be making. With Franson unsigned....we have

Phaneuf/Gunner
???/Gardiner
Komi/???.....after your deal. You have also traded 2 of our top 6 wingers for 1 and still haven't addressed either 1G or 1C.
There's still Holzer, Ranger, Kostka and Fraser for defense. We still need a 1G or 1C. I'd love to have Malkin as our 1C but I can't see any offers we can make for him.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:19 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguins2946* View Post
Leafs trade:
Kessel
Reimer
Gardiner

Pens trade:
Fleury
Morrow
Letang

This deal obviously isn't finalized, so debate which should add more.
I would do it. The leafs manage to fill a huge hole in goal while bringing in a true partner for Phaneuf. While we have a ton of D prospects Morrow just adds more to our pool and maybe we can then move a few prospects for help elsewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
There's still Holzer, Ranger, Kostka and Fraser for defense. We still need a 1G or 1C. I'd love to have Malkin as our 1C but I can't see any offers we can make for him.
The problem with guy like Holzer and Kostka is they are unproven at this point and I am not holding my breath that they can become NHL defensemen.

Ranger is removed from the game and is looking good right now in the AHL if he can bring it to the NHL level he can become a #4/5 guy but again like Holzer and Kostka they are question marks.

Fraser has really never been more than a depth D man. I will be scared if he is our 2nd pairing D man.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:19 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by TmlHockeyFan View Post
There's still Holzer, Ranger, Kostka and Fraser for defense. We still need a 1G or 1C. I'd love to have Malkin as our 1C but I can't see any offers we can make for him.
So, you want 2 of the bolded (all of which have zero or next to zero NHL play except Fraser who is depth at best) as your full time starting D? And Ranger only has an AHL contract, although i'm sure that can be rectified.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:24 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
Bold 1:

Riiiighhhhttttt. He's easily in top-5 conversation. Letang is a pivotal piece to Pittsburgh and there is NO reason to even entertain offers for him unless another young #1 defenceman is coming back.

Bold 2:

I'd love to hear this....

Bold 3:

The Penguins work their cap situation around it's core, specially Geno and Sid, so no way do they let cap space be a factor in keeping them. Sid is signed for the rest of his career and Malkin is about to follow suit. Letang will have a blank check and is expected to be paid like the #1 D-Man he is. We are loaded on D-prospects and will be able to put a formidable lineup out there with defenders on ELC's.

1. I can tell you love the Penguins and you love Letang, but he isn't top 5 in my eyes. He is in the next group after guys like Chara and Weber, etc. I called the guy an all-star type of D, I guess you feel insulted by that because I don't think he belongs in the conversation for top 5 in the league? The Penguins announcers pimp their players and talk about them like they are the best in the league, if you listen to them you will think that the Penguins deserve to win every individual trophy every year. Sorry, I don't buy into that kind of campaigning for trophies.

2. the penguins would easily move Letang if they were getting Doughty or Pietrangelo in return, wouldn't you? There is no players that you can say are better than Crosby and Malkin, at best you can say there are players like Stamkos who can be in the conversation so how in the world is Letang equally as unmoveable as Crosby and malkin? He isn't, the Penguins would move him if they were getting an upgrade.

3. I never said, implied or insinuated that the Penguins would have any trouble with the cap, I said they wouldn't move a guy like Crosby or malkin unless they had a problem with the cap or the player wanted to be moved.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:26 AM
  #73
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Not a fan of Fleury, don't have a need for Letang due to who we have on the team and in the system. No chance we trade Kessel, and trading Gardiner for simply a better dman seems pointless. No thanks

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:31 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
If you were inclined to introduce some representative context, like the fact that Letang only broke out in 2010 but his team was missing their top 2 centers/sole creative forwards for half the '10-'11 season, and the fact that he only played 51 games in '11-'12 (and produced at a better pace than every defenseman other than Karlsson), then the picture would probably become clearer for you.

But of course, you already knew those things. You just chose to overlook them.
I am looking at the global picture.

Its not everybody faults if Letang broke out in 2010 at 23yo while other top 5 offensive defenseman (Pietangelo, Karlsson, Weber) broke out younger (Around 21yo.)

I understand Pittsburg missed their two top center for half a season. But it goes both way: what about when they are not missing them? Does it somewhat advantage Letang production? I dont know, if they compare advantageously to Wellwood and Little in Winnipeg, or Legwand and Fisher in Nashville for example.

But ok, if you want to only take into account the last 50 games of every NHL defensemen. Then i agree he is a top 5 Offensive defensemen.

I also remember Chris Hinggins being a top 5 NHL goals scorer for half a season in Montreal.

Well, lets wait and see what the future reserve for Letang and if he will be among the top 5 offensive defensemen.


Last edited by palindrom: 12-28-2012 at 11:37 AM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 11:54 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by palindrom View Post
Letang Scoring rank among defensemen in the past 5 season

2011-2012 - 42pts - 17th
2010-2011 - 50pts - 9th
2009-2010 - 27pts - 61th
2008-2009 - 33pts - 43th
2007-2008 - 17pts - 99th

is it just me, or other people would expect more offensive from a top 5 NHL offensive defenseman playing with one of the top offensive team in the league?
I know this defeats the purpose of you intentionally skewing his stats, but you do know that his 42 points last year came in only 51 games played, right? His 50 point year he was actually tied for 7th (but again, that would defeat the purpose of your post if you mentioned that), and only 3 points out of 4th.

So yeah, over the past two seasons, I don't think it's a stretch to say he's produced like a top five offensive defenseman. Unless of course you want to ignore things like missing games due to injury.

And since people are saying he's a top 5 defenseman *right now*, not five seasons ago when he was a rookie, but *right now*, I'm not sure why you're bringing up his stats from before he was even regularly playing on the Pens' top pairing.

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