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Joe Morrow vs Derrick Pouliot

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12-27-2012, 06:31 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Morrow has a much better slapshot than Letang, doesn't he? That seems like the biggest weapon he could add to the Pens powerplay that we haven't had since Gonchar left. Nobody can threaten a strong shot from the point while having possession of the puck. Defenses can completely play the pass with no real worry of a strong shot once the puck is settled down. Letang is pure skating and athleticism. He isn't that much of a threat when stationary. I would like to see him playing the position Sullivan was in last season as the 2nd point guy and sliding down that wall instead of the QB.
The big differences between the two is that Morrow has a harder shot (not sure about accuracy), and he has a willingness to use it whenever he can. I also think he has more offensive zone smarts and comfort. You can see when he has the puck on his stick, he has no problem with the puck running through him, and he knows where to dish it. Letang, to me, always seems like he wants to get rid of the puck. He doesn't want to shoot because he doesn't want to offend anyone, and would rather force a play to Sid or Geno.

Half of Letang's problem on the point on the powerplay is he'll hesitate for a split second and lose his shooting lane. Morrow will waste no time bombing a shot on net.

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12-27-2012, 06:34 AM
  #77
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where is the depres is expendable sentiment coming from now? has his performance in wilkes barre been that inconsistent? from the limited times iv watched him play he has dimensions to his game we need, (size, shot, skating) and considering that martin and orpik will most likely be considered expendable in the very near future why move him? is it simply because hes now the prospect most likely considered to get a favorable return and is less shiny than maata and pouliot?
I'd say Dumoulin's performance in WBS has a lot to do with it.

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12-27-2012, 10:08 AM
  #78
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And Grigorenko has been scoring almost a **goal** a game.

You lose.
Why oh why isn't Simon Gamache a superstar in the NHL?

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12-27-2012, 10:35 AM
  #79
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The number 1 thing I'm looking for in a prospect is hockey sense and puck savvy, Pouliot has more of it. Morrow might have more strength and a bigger slap shot, but I'd take Pouliot if I had to pick.

And concerning the jmelm/Jiggy discussion. I disagree with both, because it's not the same for every player. I'm not a fan of blanked statements, some players profit more from playing big minutes in the minors, some players profit more staying in Juniors, some players profit more from playing sheltered minutes in the NHL. With Morrow, I think he learns more in the minors, because he needs to learn the system and for that, you need to play as much as possible.


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12-27-2012, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
The number 1 thing I'm looking for in a prospect is hockey sense and puck savvy, Pouliot has more of it. Morrow might have more strengt and a bigger slap shot, but I'd take Pouliot if I had to pick.

And concerning the jmeld/Jiggy discussion. I disagree with both, because it's not the same for every player. I'm not a fan of blanked statements, some players profit more from playing big minutes in the minors, some players profit more staying in Juniors, some players profit more from playing sheltered minutes in the AHL. With Morrow, I think he learns more ini the minors, because he needs to learn the system and for that, you need to play as much as possible.
Well he's not doing much of that sooo....

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12-27-2012, 10:45 AM
  #81
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Well, it's definitely more than sitting in the press box in the NHL oder playing 6 minutes a game, 5 of which are on the pp. And that he's a healthy scratch in the AHL should tell us something about how ready he is right now. Morrow has many tools, but he needs to learn how to be a pro and I think he will come back and try to proof them wrong, at least I hope he will do that.


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12-27-2012, 06:15 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
The number 1 thing I'm looking for in a prospect is hockey sense and puck savvy, Pouliot has more of it. Morrow might have more strength and a bigger slap shot, but I'd take Pouliot if I had to pick.

And concerning the jmelm/Jiggy discussion. I disagree with both, because it's not the same for every player. I'm not a fan of blanked statements, some players profit more from playing big minutes in the minors, some players profit more staying in Juniors, some players profit more from playing sheltered minutes in the NHL. With Morrow, I think he learns more in the minors, because he needs to learn the system and for that, you need to play as much as possible.

Agree with you 100% on Pouliot, which is why I had him ranked #1 on my list (and why I have Harrington so high). Sure, guys need to have sufficient size & skating ability for things to translate to the NHL level, but hockey sense/hockey IQ, being able to see and think the game at a high level, good decision-making, poise, or whatever you want to call it -- these are the most important qualities to me in a hockey player, and the thing that sets many/most of the top players apart from the others.


Regarding the other discussion: thanks for agreeing with me about Morrow, but I am absolutely not making blanket statements. I like at things on an individual, per-player basis. For example, I have been saying for over a year now that I believe Harrington can or should step right into the NHL from juniors. With Morrow, however, he just needs a lot more time; and that doesn't affect my long-term views of the player's potential. Different guys evolve & develop differently, and that's all there is to it.

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12-28-2012, 12:51 AM
  #83
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Agree with you 100% on Pouliot, which is why I had him ranked #1 on my list (and why I have Harrington so high). Sure, guys need to have sufficient size & skating ability for things to translate to the NHL level, but hockey sense/hockey IQ, being able to see and think the game at a high level, good decision-making, poise, or whatever you want to call it -- these are the most important qualities to me in a hockey player, and the thing that sets many/most of the top players apart from the others.


Regarding the other discussion: thanks for agreeing with me about Morrow, but I am absolutely not making blanket statements. I like at things on an individual, per-player basis. For example, I have been saying for over a year now that I believe Harrington can or should step right into the NHL from juniors. With Morrow, however, he just needs a lot more time; and that doesn't affect my long-term views of the player's potential. Different guys evolve & develop differently, and that's all there is to it.
That's pretty much how I see it, and I don't want to read all the posts again, but there where some statements (maybe not from you) that read like, "playing sheltered minutes in the NHL >> big minutes in the AHL" and vice versa. And even if I believe more in the vice versa treatment, I just think it's different for every player and for some the former is better, but I agree with you how Morrow should be handled.

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12-28-2012, 08:24 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Milliardo View Post
That's pretty much how I see it, and I don't want to read all the posts again, but there where some statements (maybe not from you) that read like, "playing sheltered minutes in the NHL >> big minutes in the AHL" and vice versa. And even if I believe more in the vice versa treatment, I just think it's different for every player and for some the former is better, but I agree with you how Morrow should be handled.
10-12 minutes of ice time in the NHL is much better for a players development than 20-22 minutes in the A. You simply can't prepare yourself for the speed, strength and elite skill of NHL players, until you play agt them. When a young kid can show he can handle those minutes, naturally he gets more ice time as the season goes along, when injuries happen, etc. There is no question a prospect develops faster in the NHL than the A.

Once again as I said, the difference is can a young kid handle those NHL minutes? I'm confident Morrow can. I've said over and over he is an exception to the rule, because of his strength, skating and offensive skill. If he struggles, he is sent back to the A. It isn't going to "ruin" a kid to learn what he has to work on to stay in the NHL.

So if I think Morrow is an exception to the rule, obviously I believe (and have said it many times), that most prospects need to stay in the A. I don't believe Harrington (like jmelm) is strong enough to play in the NHL next season, and think he needs a year to adjust to the strength of pro players in the A.

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12-28-2012, 08:32 AM
  #85
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No problem, we can't all agree. You seem convinced he could handle it, whereas I don't think that's the case, but that's a matter of opinion sinice we don't know for sure.

Where I disagree is the general speaking. 10-12 minutes in the NHL is not better than 20-22 minutes in the A. It might be for some players, but that's more of an exception. Now once a prospect really starts doing something with those 20-22 minutes in the A, then the argument can be made that 10-12 minutes in the NHL are better, because then it's time to learn the NHL game.

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12-28-2012, 09:05 AM
  #86
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There are different expectations for many of these defensemen. Scott Harrington is pretty close to the NHL, mainly because his NHL role will be that of a defensive defenseman. Sure, he could be a top-four rearguard and key PKer, but he won't be a high-impact player. And even that's not really true, because Rob Scuderi is an impact player, but I guess the best way to describe it is low-maintenance, or low-upside (relatively speaking).

Morrow has a chance to be a No. 1 defenseman, so he will need more time to reach that level. And I believe the others (Pouliot, Maatta, Despres, Dumoulin) fall somewhere in between.

Maatta is the guy who excites me the most, to be honest. I love everything about his game. I think we have an absolute steal with this guy.

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12-28-2012, 09:06 AM
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Not taking any side in this, but there is more to being on an NHL roster than just the minutes. Playing agaist tougher competition is one thing, but practicing with the best players in the world is an underrated bonus that certainly bolsters development. Look at how much Engelland improved over just 1 year in relation to his skill set coming in that he developed in the the AHL/ECHL.

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12-28-2012, 09:11 AM
  #88
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To add to the point, Morrow looked GREAT in preseason last year.

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12-28-2012, 09:24 AM
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To add to the point, Morrow looked GREAT in preseason last year.
As did Paul Bissonnette in 2003. It's not called pre-season for nothing.

And yes, it's nice to practice with NHL players, but again, it's different for every player. Some guys get a little too comfortable because they're on the big club and think they made it. For some it's good, for some not so much. I just don't see a reason for Morrow to play in the NHL until he looks like a good NHL players. If we had a shortage of dmen in the NHL, maybe, but that's the not the case at all.

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12-28-2012, 09:38 AM
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You're comparing apples to oranges. Morrow looked great playing as a top-pairing defenseman. Bissonnette was always going to be a role player, whether a defenseman or winger.

IF Morrow has a great camp, and I'm talking more September than any quick 7-day session if the lockout ends this season, then why should we send him back down and keep someone that doesn't deserve to stay? That's why I stress training-camp competition, and ensuring that there's at least one spot open on defense for all these youngsters to compete for. That's why I'm against trading for Gonchar or any other quick-fix blueliner.

I have never believed in the notion of keeping a player down just because of his birth certificate or level of experience or just to be conservative or safe. I always want the team to break camp with its 23 BEST, no matter what.

Anyway, a lot can and will happen from now until September, with or without NHL hockey.

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12-28-2012, 09:42 AM
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Yes, don't get me wrong, IF he is one of our best 7 dmen, make room for him. I just don't think he's even in our top 10 right now and that he gains more by playing in the minors.

Gonchar at 38 is still a lot better than Joe Morrow at 20 and would be an immediate help to our pp. If he can be had for a fair price, why not.

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12-28-2012, 09:47 AM
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No problem, we can't all agree. You seem convinced he could handle it, whereas I don't think that's the case, but that's a matter of opinion sinice we don't know for sure.

Where I disagree is the general speaking. 10-12 minutes in the NHL is not better than 20-22 minutes in the A. It might be for some players, but that's more of an exception. Now once a prospect really starts doing something with those 20-22 minutes in the A, then the argument can be made that 10-12 minutes in the NHL are better, because then it's time to learn the NHL game.
I never expect us all to agree, or there wouldn't be much to talk about.

I am of the belief that playing on the third line/pairing in the NHL is much better than the first line/pairing in the A, because there are a multitude of benefits. You are playing in the best league in the world and will reap the benefits much moreso than big minutes in the A. You are getting NHL level coaching, playing with and agt elite talent, learning what it takes to compete night in and night out, etc.

Most importantly of all, when another player goes down or is playing poorly, a young kid on the NHL roster has a much better chance of filling that spot, than one down in the A. Your coach is seeing you every night and if you do well, he will feel comfortable moving you higher up on the bench when the situation arises.

Obviously if a kid is playing limited minutes, being scratched, etc, then he is better served getting big minutes in the A, ala Tangradi last season.

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12-28-2012, 09:48 AM
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Gonchar's contract expires this season, right? So you're talking about acquiring him for a shortened 48-game 2012-13 schedule.

I wouldn't trade assets for him. ESPECIALLY knowing how important he is to Ottawa in this shortened season as they won't have Jared Cowen.

No thanks.

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12-28-2012, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I never expect us all to agree, or there wouldn't be much to talk about.

I am of the belief that playing on the third line/pairing in the NHL is much better than the first line/pairing in the A, because there are a multitude of benefits. You are playing in the best league in the world and will reap the benefits much moreso than big minutes in the A. You are getting NHL level coaching, playing with and agt elite talent, learning what it takes to compete night in and night out, etc.

Most importantly of all, when another player goes down or is playing poorly, a young kid on the NHL roster has a much better chance of filling that spot, than one down in the A. Your coach is seeing you every night and if you do well, he will feel comfortable moving you higher up on the bench when the situation arises.

Obviously if a kid is playing limited minutes, being scratched, etc, then he is better served getting big minutes in the A, ala Tangradi last season.
In Tangradi's case, if the NHL coach doesn't like you, it really doesn't matter where you are...NHL fourth line or AHL first line. Otherwise, I agree completely.

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12-28-2012, 09:52 AM
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That's why I said it depends on the price, if it's to steep, sorry. But if he could be had for a shortened season (haha yeah, I know) and it doesn't cost the world, I'm all for it. The summer is a totally differenc scenario, it depends on what other changes the Pens make.

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12-28-2012, 09:54 AM
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That's why I said it depends on the price, if it's to steep, sorry. But if he could be had for a shortened season (haha yeah, I know) and it doesn't cost the world, I'm all for it. The summer is a totally differenc scenario, it depends on what other changes the Pens make.
What is a not-steep price for a veteran top-four defenseman on a contending Eastern Conference rival?

In other words, why in the blue hell would Ottawa take anything less than overpayment?

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12-28-2012, 09:56 AM
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I never expect us all to agree, or there wouldn't be much to talk about.

I am of the belief that playing on the third line/pairing in the NHL is much better than the first line/pairing in the A, because there are a multitude of benefits. You are playing in the best league in the world and will reap the benefits much moreso than big minutes in the A. You are getting NHL level coaching, playing with and agt elite talent, learning what it takes to compete night in and night out, etc.

Most importantly of all, when another player goes down or is playing poorly, a young kid on the NHL roster has a much better chance of filling that spot, than one down in the A. Your coach is seeing you every night and if you do well, he will feel comfortable moving you higher up on the bench when the situation arises.

Obviously if a kid is playing limited minutes, being scratched, etc, then he is better served getting big minutes in the A, ala Tangradi last season.
If said player is able to handle it, yeah, maybe. I don't think Morrow is able to handle it yet, so to me, AHL minutes is what helps him more. A player who is overwhelmed at the NHL level won't learn a whole lot and over time will lose his confidence and regress. I don't want to risk that because it's not even necessary if you look at the big Pens roster.

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12-28-2012, 09:58 AM
  #98
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The big differences between the two is that Morrow has a harder shot (not sure about accuracy)
i dont see how his accuracy could be worse than Letang. If it is, that is a HUGE problem because Letang has really poor accuracy

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12-28-2012, 11:02 AM
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If said player is able to handle it, yeah, maybe. I don't think Morrow is able to handle it yet, so to me, AHL minutes is what helps him more. A player who is overwhelmed at the NHL level won't learn a whole lot and over time will lose his confidence and regress. I don't want to risk that because it's not even necessary if you look at the big Pens roster.
Well that is exactly why I said IF their PP struggles, then bring him up to see if he can help. He is the only true PP QB on either roster.

If not, there are four other prospects ahead of him who deserve the call first.

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12-28-2012, 11:24 AM
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What is a not-steep price for a veteran top-four defenseman on a contending Eastern Conference rival?

In other words, why in the blue hell would Ottawa take anything less than overpayment?
If he could be had lets say for Brian Strait and a 4th, I'd do it. If Ottawa would do it depends on a lot of things, maybe Karlsson and Spezza get injured and they lose 10 of the first 11 games and decide to let the season go, who knows.

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