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The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

LeBrun: NHL made new offer to NHLPA on Thursday (12/27)

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:44 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That's what was said the last time, too. And it was wrong - the average NHLer benefited tremendously from the last lockout.

Time will tell if history repeats, rhymes, or carves an entirely new path.
Well last time the players got a great deal and salaries increased drastically across the board.

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12-28-2012, 11:44 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
So what, accept what the players are offering would be his only alternative at this point. And thats not an option either..

People have to realize sometimes there is just not a deal to be had. It happens all the time in personal and business dealings.
The offers are close enough that somewhere in the middle lies an acceptable deal for both sides. Whoever makes that offer is irrelevant to everyone except Fehr/Bettman.

In personal and business dealings, both sides generally cut a deal based on reality of current economic situation and what's fair NOW.

This is where the players are completely off base in my opinion. Everything in this "negotiation" has been in comparison to the last CBA. They have ignored reality and current economic situation of sports industry and basically in the world in general. Had they done so, and not been brainwashed into looking at what they could have had based on the old CBA vs. what's being offered, I think this deal could have been done a LOT sooner. And on top of that, as long as the landscape doesn't change drastically, and as long as the league doesn't leave any massive loopholes for "cap circumvention", labor peace for an extended period could have been achieved as well.

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12-28-2012, 11:45 AM
  #53
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Fehr just needs to tweak this offer to get a little more and we will have hockey.

#faithinFehr

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12-28-2012, 11:46 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Probably about the same percentage as fans.

With the possible exception of the union reps, I really doubt most players are fully aware what's been going on any more than we are. Fehr has been blowing so much smoke it's hard for anyone to really cut through it and get down to the bone.
But that's my point. Do the players; as a whole, really know Fehr's true intentions? And if he really is hell bent on breaking the cap and cementing his legacy as a "winner" in player negotiations then would the players still stand unified behind him?

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12-28-2012, 11:46 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That's what was said the last time, too. And it was wrong - the average NHLer benefited tremendously from the last lockout.

Time will tell if history repeats, rhymes, or carves an entirely new path.
Not true. If we look at a player like Brandon Prust; he was due to earn 2.5 mill this year, pretty average salary. If the season is cancelled, he makes $0. His career may last another 2 or 3 years. Lets say 3 years. at 50% HRR split and assuming a flat or slightly negative industry growth factor due to this mess, he'll make 2.2 mill for the next 3 years. That $900,000 delta (2.5-2.2 x 3 years) that he will never recover, assuming his career is over in 3 years. If the lockout spills over into next season, he will lose even more.

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12-28-2012, 11:47 AM
  #56
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Well last time the players got a great deal and salaries increased drastically across the board.
Again, that is not what was said at the time. At the time, it was stated the PA had been crushed, the owners got what they wanted, and players would never make what they gave up during the lockout.

Wrong on all accounts.

I suspect the vast majority of similar statements being expressed around here this time around will also turn out be completely wrong.

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12-28-2012, 11:48 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by KPower View Post
Fehr just needs to tweak this offer to get a little more and we will have hockey.

#faithinFehr
Haha, Fehr won't be happy until he has the owners bent over the table.

#MLB

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12-28-2012, 11:49 AM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Xref View Post
Not true. If we look at a player like Brandon Prust...
I trust you understand the meaning of the phrase "on average".

Not to mention players like Prust are exactly the ones that benefited the most from the previous lockout.

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12-28-2012, 11:51 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Again, that is not what was said at the time. At the time, it was stated the PA had been crushed, the owners got what they wanted, and players would never make what they gave up during the lockout.

Wrong on all accounts.

I suspect the vast majority of similar statements being expressed around here this time around will also turn out be completely wrong.
Are you aware of how many players never made it back into the league after the last lockout? Did those players recoup that money? Fringe players and 3rd and 4th liners will be crushed by this lockout. Of course Sidney Crosby will be fine but he is not an average NHL player. The lockout helps the top 10 percent of NHL players and hurts the rest.

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12-28-2012, 11:55 AM
  #60
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Interesting offer from the owners. Daily says, that's a hill we will die on. They then prpose to change exactly that, from 5 to 6 years. Maybe that's all the players need to pat themselves on the back about a victory they've acheived? Knowing how this has played out thus far, they'll counter with another proposal that only reaches 50-50 based on certain economic events happening, which would never be acceptable to the owners. .

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12-28-2012, 11:56 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Are you aware of how many players never made it back into the league after the last lockout?
Yes, I am.

Are you aware of how many players don't make it back in a typical season? Are you aware of how few of those who didn't make it back were going to be in the league 2 seasons later anyway? Are you aware of how much money was made by the vast majority of players who did make it back, as well as by all those who joined the league subsequent to the CBA?

Last lockout was an immensely profitable path for the PA.

If it wasn't, the owners wouldn't be locking them out right now.

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12-28-2012, 11:57 AM
  #62
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Anyone else feeling like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football?

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12-28-2012, 11:59 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
What percentage of NHL players do people think really know what's going on in the lockout?
I think less than 5%. Heck, less than 5% of reporters seem to even analyze these proposals, you expect the players too?

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12-28-2012, 12:00 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I trust you understand the meaning of the phrase "on average".

Not to mention players like Prust are exactly the ones that benefited the most from the previous lockout.
Yes, I do. You said "the average hockey player". I used Prust as an example of an "average hockey player" due to his salary and age.

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12-28-2012, 12:03 PM
  #65
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Not true. If we look at a player like Brandon Prust; he was due to earn 2.5 mill this year, pretty average salary. If the season is cancelled, he makes $0. His career may last another 2 or 3 years. Lets say 3 years. at 50% HRR split and assuming a flat or slightly negative industry growth factor due to this mess, he'll make 2.2 mill for the next 3 years. That $900,000 delta (2.5-2.2 x 3 years) that he will never recover, assuming his career is over in 3 years. If the lockout spills over into next season, he will lose even more.

Right, it would be very, very hard to imagine sufficient gains for most players that would make up for an entire lost season, especially because the overwhelming majority of NHL players count their total number of seasons in the single digits. Even if you're making a few hundred K more, it's hard to get that to make up for an entire year's earning power

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12-28-2012, 12:04 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Yes, I am.

Are you aware of how many players don't make it back in a typical season? Are you aware of how few of those who didn't make it back were going to be in the league 2 seasons later anyway? Are you aware of how much money was made by the vast majority of players who did make it back, as well as by all those who joined the league subsequent to the CBA?

Last lockout was an immensely profitable path for the PA.

If it wasn't, the owners wouldn't be locking them out right now.
Haha, I have said many times that the players won in the last lockout to which you replied "that's not what was said coming out of the lockout"...... I am confused as to what exactly is your point.

If the players are banking on flourishing again coming out of another lockout that's a risky proposition at best.

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12-28-2012, 12:04 PM
  #67
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The offers are close enough that somewhere in the middle lies an acceptable deal for both sides. Whoever makes that offer is irrelevant to everyone except Fehr/Bettman.
They are not that close is the issue. If you analyze the players offer you realize they are asking for a huge amount of revenue. I ran the number in another thread, and even without their demands of compliance buyouts and make whole, the deal they are offering will pay players 56% of revenues if revenues rose by 4% a year (yeah,good luck with that ....). Complaince buyouts and make whole probably pushes it over 60%.

Quite simply the players are not offering anything close to 50 50. They are offering a floor of 50%, and a drag on salary above 50%, but that drag is limited to the point it will assuredly start well over 50%, probably over 60% and only slowly go down.

They really are still very far apart on economics.

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12-28-2012, 12:09 PM
  #68
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The Make Whole has already been stretched beyond the limit; I'm glad they didn't make any more concessions on that.

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12-28-2012, 12:10 PM
  #69
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
They are not that close is the issue. If you analyze the players offer you realize they are asking for a huge amount of revenue. I ran the number in another thread, and even without their demands of compliance buyouts and make whole, the deal they are offering will pay players 56% of revenues if revenues rose by 4% a year (yeah,good luck with that ....). Complaince buyouts and make whole probably pushes it over 60%.

Quite simply the players are not offering anything close to 50 50. They are offering a floor of 50%, and a drag on salary above 50%, but that drag is limited to the point it will assuredly start well over 50%, probably over 60% and only slowly go down.

They really are still very far apart on economics.
Yup.... This is my point as far as the media, fans and even NHL players not being aware of what is really going on. Anyone who thinks this is really about contract lengths and CBA years is misinformed. Fehr's counter offer to the owners a month ago was a HUGE step backwards and that's why Bettman was so pissed. Well that and Fehr saying they were close when he knew they were world apart.

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12-28-2012, 12:16 PM
  #70
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What percentage of NHL players do people think really know what's going on in the lockout?
At least 700 of them

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12-28-2012, 12:22 PM
  #71
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At least 700 of them
Chances that all 700 players who voted on disbanding the union are fully aware that the NHLPA's offer to the owners is still at 4-6 percent away from the 50/50 split on revenue and what that truly means in regards to ending the lockout? 0 percent!

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12-28-2012, 12:27 PM
  #72
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What is the point of debating how educated the players are on the topic at hand? It's all unsubstantiated conjecture. Surely there are better things to discuss about the latest proposal, no?

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12-28-2012, 12:28 PM
  #73
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If all goes well the Players reject this offer then take the DOI all the way to court and wipe the clocks clean of the NHL so they wont ever dream of having another lock out.

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12-28-2012, 12:30 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by xkirax View Post
If all goes well the Players reject this offer then take the DOI all the way to court and wipe the clocks clean of the NHL so they wont ever dream of having another lock out.
It's as simple as that, huh?

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12-28-2012, 12:35 PM
  #75
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If all goes well the Players reject this offer then take the DOI all the way to court and wipe the clocks clean of the NHL so they wont ever dream of having another lock out.
How would that scenario bode well for any current player. It would take years to settle in courts. Wiping years out of every players NHL career is it going well? Not to mention there is absolutely no guarantees of any win in the court system by the players. The majority of legal opinions I've heard on various sports talks shows (from lawyers brought on) favour the leagues chances.

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