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LeBrun: NHL made new offer to NHLPA on Thursday (12/27)

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:35 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Chances that all 700 players who voted on disbanding the union are fully aware that the NHLPA's offer to the owners is still at 4-6 percent away from the 50/50 split on revenue and what that truly means in regards to ending the lockout? 0 percent!
then you have no clue as to how Fehr has been operating.

The main problem in the last PA was that Goodenow and his negotiating team kept the players in the dark about how the negotiations were going which is why you had the Mutiny of the PA leadership and a deal done.

Fehr has invited each and every player to each and every negotiating session.

Fehr has been TOO transparent with the information that he has given the Union membership which is why they got a 706-22 vote to allow the Union to DOI.

The offers that the owners have been sending the players way have gone from completely unacceptable to less so. But EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE OFFERS, sees the players giving on every issue and getting nothing back as an inducement to getting a deal done.

The players are being made to suffer because the league wants to punish teams for signing contracts that were 100% allowed and encouraged under the last CBA (if they weren't both allowed and encouraged the term Annual Average Value or AAV) would NOT have existed in that agreement.

So, while you and alot of other posters here can think that the Players are being mis-led in this negotiation, the overwhelming majority vote to DOI tells me that they all know exactly what is going on here and now, finally, have the leadership in place that they can trust to negotiate in their best interest and provide them with all of the information they want, or just attend the negotiating session if they want, something they were not allowed to do under the previous leadership group.

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12-28-2012, 11:38 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by xkirax View Post
If all goes well the Players reject this offer then take the DOI all the way to court and wipe the clocks clean of the NHL so they wont ever dream of having another lock out.
All the players also will be out of jobs, and the owners would have to close their franchises.

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12-28-2012, 11:46 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by stuffradio View Post
All the players also will be out of jobs, and the owners would have to close their franchises.
lol people keep saying these players don't know whats good for them and they should be fighting for there own pay. Well if they take it to courts each player can sue for there own contract and get paid what they are owed and them some. So If the league closes down the players still get paid and these players win right? plus they make more then they would with triple paychecks coming their ways.

Btw the league would not shut down this is just what pro owners keep saying what will happen is that the league will file for bankruptcy. Then other owners will take over a lot of the teams for pennys on the dollar. Then a new set of owners will be in place but will have learned the lessons of the old owners don't screw the players to much...

Edit... F the 4th and 5th linemen they don't put BOS no one gives a darn about them only time they do is when it comes to negotiations. They will be out of the league in a year or 2 anyways so why should what they think even matter? They don't like it they can join the other leagues like they always do. Plus because they are other leagues they will be ok because they cant make less then they could in other leagues and will prob make more anyways

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12-28-2012, 11:50 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by xkirax View Post
lol people keep saying these players don't know whats good for them and they should be fighting for there own pay. Well if they take it to courts each player can sue for there own contract and get paid what they are owed and them some. So If the league closes down the players still get paid and these players win right? plus they make more then they would with triple paychecks coming their ways.
dream on.. you cannot pickpocket a naked man

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12-28-2012, 11:51 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
then you have no clue as to how Fehr has been operating.

The main problem in the last PA was that Goodenow and his negotiating team kept the players in the dark about how the negotiations were going which is why you had the Mutiny of the PA leadership and a deal done.

Fehr has invited each and every player to each and every negotiating session.

Fehr has been TOO transparent with the information that he has given the Union membership which is why they got a 706-22 vote to allow the Union to DOI.

The offers that the owners have been sending the players way have gone from completely unacceptable to less so. But EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE OFFERS, sees the players giving on every issue and getting nothing back as an inducement to getting a deal done.

The players are being made to suffer because the league wants to punish teams for signing contracts that were 100% allowed and encouraged under the last CBA (if they weren't both allowed and encouraged the term Annual Average Value or AAV) would NOT have existed in that agreement.

So, while you and alot of other posters here can think that the Players are being mis-led in this negotiation, the overwhelming majority vote to DOI tells me that they all know exactly what is going on here and now, finally, have the leadership in place that they can trust to negotiate in their best interest and provide them with all of the information they want, or just attend the negotiating session if they want, something they were not allowed to do under the previous leadership group.
What exactly do the players have so badly going against them that they need tweaked in their favor for a deal to get done?

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12-28-2012, 11:53 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
then you have no clue as to how Fehr has been operating.

The main problem in the last PA was that Goodenow and his negotiating team kept the players in the dark about how the negotiations were going which is why you had the Mutiny of the PA leadership and a deal done.

Fehr has invited each and every player to each and every negotiating session.

Fehr has been TOO transparent with the information that he has given the Union membership which is why they got a 706-22 vote to allow the Union to DOI.

The offers that the owners have been sending the players way have gone from completely unacceptable to less so. But EACH AND EVERY ONE OF THOSE OFFERS, sees the players giving on every issue and getting nothing back as an inducement to getting a deal done.

The players are being made to suffer because the league wants to punish teams for signing contracts that were 100% allowed and encouraged under the last CBA (if they weren't both allowed and encouraged the term Annual Average Value or AAV) would NOT have existed in that agreement.

So, while you and alot of other posters here can think that the Players are being mis-led in this negotiation, the overwhelming majority vote to DOI tells me that they all know exactly what is going on here and now, finally, have the leadership in place that they can trust to negotiate in their best interest and provide them with all of the information they want, or just attend the negotiating session if they want, something they were not allowed to do under the previous leadership group.
So then why did Fehr trot out the leagues biggest star in Sidney Crosby to talk the the media about being close to a deal when he had to have known his counter offer which was no where near a 50/50 split on revenue was miles apart from the owners offer? Haha, I can't believe you really think all of the NHL players or even the majority of them really understands what exactly is going on in this lockout. It's blows my mind.

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12-28-2012, 11:56 AM
  #82
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Of course its rejected...


Nick Kypreos
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Good sign #NHL owners aren't willing to burn season but latest offer not close 2 getting deal done. #NHLPA counter offer already in works.

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12-28-2012, 12:03 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Of course its rejected...


Nick Kypreos
‏@RealKyper

Good sign #NHL owners aren't willing to burn season but latest offer not close 2 getting deal done. #NHLPA counter offer already in works.
Was coming in to post that the additional 5% in variance allows for anywhere between $100K - $350K additional in the variance (depending on whether the contract was $2M - $7M), but based on Kypreos' tweet, I get the sense they'll stretch it to 15% overall in the counter.

And that's wishful thinking on may part regarding just that piece alone.

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12-28-2012, 12:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by cbcwpg View Post
Of course its rejected...


Nick Kypreos
‏@RealKyper

Good sign #NHL owners aren't willing to burn season but latest offer not close 2 getting deal done. #NHLPA counter offer already in works.
And so it should be, 6 year contract length is ridiculous.

Fehr will counter with 10.

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12-28-2012, 12:07 PM
  #85
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Go to 7 years, place limits on escrow and a deal is done and Bettman saves the league from a potentially damaging fight

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12-28-2012, 12:13 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
I hope they wait until after the WJC and Spengler cup. Then if they want to settle, fine.
They can settle before that so long as training camps don't open until that tourney is done!

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12-28-2012, 12:16 PM
  #87
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They can settle before that so long as training camps don't open until that tourney is done!
If I was playing in the WJC's I'd say ****it I'm not reporting until we're out of it.

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12-28-2012, 12:20 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Go to 7 years, place limits on escrow and a deal is done and Bettman saves the league from a potentially damaging fight
Or Fehr saves the players from a potentially devastating loss in court.

Could go either way.

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12-28-2012, 12:25 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by xkirax View Post
lol people keep saying these players don't know whats good for them and they should be fighting for there own pay. Well if they take it to courts each player can sue for there own contract and get paid what they are owed and them some. So If the league closes down the players still get paid and these players win right? plus they make more then they would with triple paychecks coming their ways.

Btw the league would not shut down this is just what pro owners keep saying what will happen is that the league will file for bankruptcy. Then other owners will take over a lot of the teams for pennys on the dollar. Then a new set of owners will be in place but will have learned the lessons of the old owners don't screw the players to much...

Edit... F the 4th and 5th linemen they don't put BOS no one gives a darn about them only time they do is when it comes to negotiations. They will be out of the league in a year or 2 anyways so why should what they think even matter? They don't like it they can join the other leagues like they always do. Plus because they are other leagues they will be ok because they cant make less then they could in other leagues and will prob make more anyways
Sure the players can sue for their own contract. I cna sue the NHL for making me sad. Doesn't mean I'll win.

Every player contract signed in the NHL says it is subject to the CBA. Absent a union, and thus a CBA their contracts will be null and void and will have nothing to sue for. Every single meeting the NHL conducts with its governors has lawyers present for the express purpose of ensuring nothing goes on that would be considered an anti-trust violation. The NHL has been preparing for a decertification scenario for years and years and are extremely confident they will prevail. Not to mention the history of court rulings are on the side of ownership.

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Old
12-28-2012, 12:25 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by ottawah View Post
They are not that close is the issue. If you analyze the players offer you realize they are asking for a huge amount of revenue. I ran the number in another thread, and even without their demands of compliance buyouts and make whole, the deal they are offering will pay players 56% of revenues if revenues rose by 4% a year (yeah,good luck with that ....). Complaince buyouts and make whole probably pushes it over 60%.

Quite simply the players are not offering anything close to 50 50. They are offering a floor of 50%, and a drag on salary above 50%, but that drag is limited to the point it will assuredly start well over 50%, probably over 60% and only slowly go down.

They really are still very far apart on economics.
Didn't the NHL agree to pay for make whole a while ago? As in the league is now offering something like 56% in the first year and decreasing to 50% in the long run.

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12-28-2012, 12:27 PM
  #91
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So if this is true, the players are countering, we'll see where it goes. If the NHL feels that this offer was NOT open to bargaining, except on a minor tweak scale, they may go forward and call bluff for DOI on Jan 2nd. At that point I would think optically the PA chooses to go the DOI route, because going past the 2nd means they have to vote again which the NHL takes to court saying "See? We made an offer before the 2nd, the PA rejected it but instead of taking the DOI on the 2nd, they voted AGAIN to DOI, which in our view shows that it was just a negotiation technique"

This isn't going to get solved over the weekend, and so Jan 2nd I think optics wise the PA disclaims interest, and takes the "lesser" bad optic of still trying to negotate white disclaiming interest.

I think if the PA disclaims interest, NHL says fine "fine, season's over" (quote from Garroich's "source" not withstanding)-because the NHL will claim "they are no longer a union, so therefore negotiating with them would be considered an Anti-trust issue-we'll have to work out how we bargain with a "trade organization" in this case (again this is all optics )

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12-28-2012, 12:30 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That's what was said the last time, too. And it was wrong - the average NHLer benefited tremendously from the last lockout.

Time will tell if history repeats, rhymes, or carves an entirely new path.
Hmm. Pro-PA posters have been parroting the line that the players got completely hosed during the last negotiations and it's all the owners fault if the system is broken. Now which is it?

Plus, we've had several players who have actually gone through the last stoppage come out and either say it was not worth it or implied it. Recchi, Hamrlik, Modano, Roenick, Jagr...

Has there been one NHLer who has gone through the last stoppage who has come out and said Yes, I thought financially it made sense for me to spend a year's salary?

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12-28-2012, 12:31 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Tinalera View Post
I think if the PA disclaims interest, NHL says fine "fine, season's over" (quote from Garroich's "source" not withstanding).
I think the league would be less inclined to cancel the season if the NHLPA goes through with a DOI. The incentive to get a deal done as soon as possible would never be higher for the owners.

It's interesting to note that the owners have not given the players a drop-dead date yet. The players have to go to sleep at night not knowing if the lights are going to be flipped off when they wake up.

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12-28-2012, 12:39 PM
  #94
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Details of offer, per ESPN

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ec-27-proposal

Some snips...

Quote:
• Ten-Year Agreement (through 2021/22 season); Parties have mutual opt-out right after 8 years.

• 50-50 Revenue Split between Clubs and Players with current HRR Accounting.

• No contractual “roll backs” of Player Salaries.

• Clubs can operate with an effective Upper Limit of $70.2 million in 2012/13; must
come into compliance with $60 million Upper Limit for the start of the 2013/14
season.

• Each Club will be entitled to execute up to one “Compliance Buy-Out” prior to the
2013/14 season pursuant to which payments made to the Player will not be charged
against the team’s Cap, but will be charged against the Players’ Share.

• Establishment of a Defined Benefit Pension Plan that will provide maximum
permissible benefits to Players upon retirement. The Plan will be funded with
contributions out of Players’ Share and $50 million of the “Make-Whole” payment
amount of $300 million will be allocated and set aside to fund potential underfunding
liabilities of the Plan at end of CBA.

• Money paid (above a defined threshold) to Players on NHL SPCs in another
professional league (e.g., the AHL or a European league) will be charged against the
NHL team’s Cap, but not against the Players’ Share.

• More robust League-wide Revenue Sharing Program (increased pool from
approximately $150 million to $200 million) with creation of Industry Growth Fund to
improve the long-term revenue generating potential of the League and low-grossing
Clubs. Formation of active Revenue Sharing Oversight Committee on which NHLPA
will participate.

• Flexibility-related adjustments to Payroll Range System, including (in addition to
Salary/Cap Charge allocation in Player trades):
1. Lower Limit obligation without performance bonuses;
2. Elimination of Re-Entry Waivers;
3. Creation of Salary Cap exceptions for emergency roster situations/goaltender
injuries;
4. Waiver exemptions for mid-season signings of Club’s own European Players;
5. Availability of Performance Bonus Cushion in every year of the CBA;
6. Creation of “interview period” for Unrestricted Free Agents

• Various Player contract enhancements and protections, including:
1. Early activation of “No Move/No Trade” clauses in contract extensions;
2. Additional restrictions on Club “buy-out” rights of Player contracts;
3. Modified Waiver obligations for Clubs / enhanced Waiver opportunities for
Players;
4. Standardization of reimbursements and benefits related to Player
assignments (trades, loans, recalls, etc.);
5. Continued increases in League Minimum Salary and Per Diem;
6. Playoff Pool increased from $6.5 million to $13 million in Year 1; additional
regular increases over the balance of the CBA term;
7. All minor league salary paid in USD;
8. Liberalized “Cap treatment” standards for Club initiatives benefitting Players,
such as “parent-son” road trips; milestone awards/gifts; parental travel and
lodging for attendance at EL Player games, Club provision of various types of
“professional development”-type services for Players, etc.

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Old
12-28-2012, 12:59 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Details of offer, per ESPN

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ec-27-proposal

Some snips...


Thanks for the post. I'm worried about that upper level salary cap drop. Didn't even know that was an option, and I highly doubt the the PA will go for it.

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12-28-2012, 12:59 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Gotaf7 View Post
Offer will be rejected by end of weekend, and along with that will be a a whole lot more whining over how much they have given they are not giving anything back blah blah blah!
This is exactly what I think is going to happen.

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12-28-2012, 01:02 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Details of offer, per ESPN

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ec-27-proposal

Some snips...
The first offer was fair and this one is a little better..... Fehr and the NHLPA will counter offer and if it's a reasonable counter a deal will get done. If they counter with some crap at 54-56 percent of revenue going to the players again then the season is all but lost. My guess is Fehr smells blood in the water and makes another unreasonable counter and there will be no hockey this year but I hope I am wrong.

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:04 PM
  #98
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Interesting that they combine a huge drop in cap with "continued increases in league minimum salary". On the surface, looks like an attempt to create another wedge issue.

Anybody have details?

EDIT: What happened to $300M in revenue sharing? That says only $200M.

Doesn't seem to be enough here to keep the PA from proceeding with the DOI/Decert path next week...

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12-28-2012, 01:04 PM
  #99
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Another Bettman trick just before cancelling the season. The PA will ensure this goes to a logical conclusion: 2 years of court before determining Bettman has been negotiating in bad faith.

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12-28-2012, 01:08 PM
  #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Interesting that they combine a huge drop in cap with "continued increases in league minimum salary". On the surface, looks like an attempt to create another wedge issue.

Anybody have details?

EDIT: What happened to $300M in revenue sharing? That says only $200M.
$300 was the "make whole" not revenue sharing.

As for the cap, its necessary to keep it low to minimize escrow by the players. Regardless of what it is the players would get 50%. Outside a cap on escrow, a lower cap benefits players.

The PA proposed a higher cap in conjunction with capping escrow as a way to ensure they actually get greater than 50% of HRR.

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