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2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part X: Is There Any Hope? Edition

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:09 PM
  #451
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The issue with Gaborik won't be the number of suitors, it'll be how many of them he's willing to play for -- if any. That NTC is going throw a major wrench into the gears.

If the season is lost, even if Nash can get back to 40 goals, we've ultimately taken a step sideways at best. Tough to chew on, but that's the reality.

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12-28-2012, 01:11 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by Trxjw View Post
The issue with Gaborik won't be the number of suitors, it'll be how many of them he's willing to play for -- if any. That NTC is going throw a major wrench into the gears.

If the season is lost, even if Nash can get back to 40 goals, we've ultimately taken a step sideways at best. Tough to chew on, but that's the reality.
On the other hand, many other contenders will also be in the same position and need to trade players to deal with a lower cap

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12-28-2012, 01:13 PM
  #453
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There ya go...

If 3 of those teams have significant interest then there's your market.

I think a team like Minnesota would make sense. They want to contend and they have a top notch and deep talent pool. They can afford to move a couple of quality guys (outside of Granlund and Brodin). I wouldn't mind prying a couple of those guys away.
Im not saying there wont be a market.

What I am saying is that you'll be hard-pressed to grab a solid package given the Rangers cap situation and the fact these teams can wait a year and likely bid on Gaborik as a free agent.

If anyone thinks theyre going to get true market value for a 40 goal scorer, theyve got another thing coming. In the end, this is a salary dump.


Last edited by Bleed Ranger Blue: 12-28-2012 at 01:18 PM.
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12-28-2012, 01:14 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
There will be multiple teams who would line-up for Gaborik's services. I would highly doubt there wouldn't be significant interest in a 40 goal scorer and that is all that it would take. (2) teams or more and it doesn't matter what situation the Rangers are in.
At the same time, you're probably going to see a number of high priced contracts on the market too. Is there potentially too much supply to get the kind of return you'd really want?

There has to be another way to manage this. Can there be an exemption for a player with a certain amount of time remaining on their contract or above a certain cap hit threshold?

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12-28-2012, 01:24 PM
  #455
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Any news on what PA proposal may be?

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12-28-2012, 01:26 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Melrose_Jr. View Post
At the same time, you're probably going to see a number of high priced contracts on the market too. Is there potentially too much supply to get the kind of return you'd really want?

There has to be another way to manage this. Can there be an exemption for a player with a certain amount of time remaining on their contract or above a certain cap hit threshold?
While you are probably correct, I can't think of that many high priced players that teams would be willing to move who are better than Gaborik. I think the teams who will have problems will be teams with high priced guys on longer deals who aren't performing up to their contracts.

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12-28-2012, 01:28 PM
  #457
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So what do you guys think?

I'm tired of Fehr not wanting to negotiate. Every time the league presents an offer, the PA responds with a counter offer. Aside from a couple weeks ago before Fehr said we were close, I don't think they've tried to work off a proposal.

Work off the proposal. GTF in the room, and talk about what you want changed. That's negotiating.

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12-28-2012, 01:32 PM
  #458
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If a deal was to happen logic would prevail that there would be a grace year for teams close to the ceiling to adjust. Also, logic would prevail that the NHLPA won't be all too satisfied with the current cap, and neither will some of the owners. Let's say that the cap ceiling goes in between what the NHL is offering and what it already is, so around 65 mill. Gaborik for this year should be absolutely no problem, Gaborik for next year should take some creativity but should fit in just under the cap.

I really don't think he's a casualty. Y'all need to relax.

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12-28-2012, 01:34 PM
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
So what do you guys think?

I'm tired of Fehr not wanting to negotiate. Every time the league presents an offer, the PA responds with a counter offer. Aside from a couple weeks ago before Fehr said we were close, I don't think they've tried to work off a proposal.

Work off the proposal. GTF in the room, and talk about what you want changed. That's negotiating.
How is presenting a counteroffer not negotiating? And why must the players work off the owners' proposal?

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12-28-2012, 01:42 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by Stasis View Post
It's not dealing from a position of strength if that's what the belief is, no... but it's not that bad if there are multiple suitors betting against each other.
Exactly. The Rangers' known need to deal him is immediately rendered irrelevant by the auction dynamic the moment you have more than one team involved. Look at the Dickey deal in baseball for a fresh example. Everyone knew the Wilpons couldn't afford to keep him and yet Toronto paid through the NOSE to get him because that's what it took to have the winning bid.

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Also, this assumption is based on the cap going down to $60M. We don't know that to be a sure thing yet. A $64M-$65M cap likely means we can keep him.
Also true - not a done deal yet.

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12-28-2012, 01:46 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Im not saying there wont be a market.

What I am saying is that you'll be hard-pressed to grab a solid package given the Rangers cap situation and the fact these teams can wait a year and likely bid on Gaborik as a free agent.

If anyone thinks theyre going to get true market value for a 40 goal scorer, theyve got another thing coming. In the end, this is a salary dump.
I guess it depends on your definition of a solid package. Are we talking about multiple first rounders and A prospects? If so, your right. If your talking about a first, B prospect, and maybe a slightly overpaid 3rd pairing defensemen, then I think that's very attainable IF Gaborik waives his NTC. Look at what guys like Gaustad and Zidlicky brought back last season. I think it's reasonable to expect an upgrade off of that considering Gaborik is the far superior player. Every year you see aging mediocre defenseman dealt for 2nd rounders for heavens sake...

I'm telling you - a team like the Wild would be a perfect fit. They can add to their prime star players without making another huge long term commitment via UFA... Guys like Zucker, Larsson, Dumba might be attainable... all without giving up their top guys like Brodin, Granlund, Croyle..

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12-28-2012, 01:53 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by Barnaby View Post
I guess it depends on your definition of a solid package. Are we talking about multiple first rounders and A prospects? If so, your right. If your talking about a first, B prospect, and maybe a slightly overpaid 3rd pairing defensemen, then I think that's very attainable IF Gaborik waives his NTC. Look at what guys like Gaustad and Zidlicky brought back last season. I think it's reasonable to expect an upgrade off of that considering Gaborik is the far superior player. Every year you see aging mediocre defenseman dealt for 2nd rounders for heavens sake...

I'm telling you - a team like the Wild would be a perfect fit. They can add to their prime star players without making another huge long term commitment via UFA... Guys like Zucker, Larsson, Dumba might be attainable... all without giving up their top guys like Brodin, Granlund, Croyle..
Why would the Rangers do this? You make a trade if a return is worth more than what you are giving. It'll take creativity but the Rangers can absolutely keep Gaborik for his remaining two seasons here. I'm sure there will be some fine language that will allow teams to be able to adjust to this cap.

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12-28-2012, 01:57 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
So what do you guys think?

I'm tired of Fehr not wanting to negotiate. Every time the league presents an offer, the PA responds with a counter offer. Aside from a couple weeks ago before Fehr said we were close, I don't think they've tried to work off a proposal.

Work off the proposal. GTF in the room, and talk about what you want changed. That's negotiating.
To date: Fehr keeps receiving improved offers so he is improving the PA's position by waiting and not initiating.

If the season is cancelled or if the players pay too much for their ultimate return then Fehr might have erred?

As of now the owners seem to be pushing more for a settlement (Perhaps they need the season more or are covering their position for any possible lawsuits) so it's too early to judge the results.

Fehr is simply playing a calculated positions and negotiating the way he believes is best.

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12-28-2012, 02:00 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Why would the Rangers do this? You make a trade if a return is worth more than what you are giving. It'll take creativity but the Rangers can absolutely keep Gaborik for his remaining two seasons here. I'm sure there will be some fine language that will allow teams to be able to adjust to this cap.
You're sure? That makes one of us. I don't argue that the Rangers should/will keep Gaborik for this season (assuming there is one). However, there is a very real possibility that the Rangers will have to shed $ the following season in order to resign their UFA's.

What is this fine language going to say? It's a hard cap. The amnesty buyout is the big helper. The cap doesn't pertain to the Rangers? Resign all of your young players and keep your pricey stars...

I'd love to keep Gaborik, but you have to be prepared for other possibilities. Restocking a thinning cupboard wouldn't be a bad idea if that situation arises...

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12-28-2012, 02:00 PM
  #465
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Any news on what PA proposal may be?
Have they countered yesterday's offer?

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12-28-2012, 02:02 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
To date: Fehr keeps receiving improved offers so he is improving the PA's position by waiting and not initiating.

If the season is cancelled or if the players pay too much for their ultimate return then Fehr might have erred?

As of now the owners seem to be pushing more for a settlement (Perhaps they need the season more or are covering their position for any possible lawsuits) so it's too early to judge the results.

Fehr is simply playing a calculated positions and negotiating the way he believes is best.
Based on what? They allegedly increased their appallingly low 5 year contract limit to 6 and agreed to allow the year to year variance to go from 5% to 10%. That sure is magnanimous of them. lol

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12-28-2012, 02:04 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by kenjets36 View Post
Why would the Rangers do this? You make a trade if a return is worth more than what you are giving. It'll take creativity but the Rangers can absolutely keep Gaborik for his remaining two seasons here. I'm sure there will be some fine language that will allow teams to be able to adjust to this cap.
If the cap drops to 60 million and they want to re-sign Hagelin, Stepan, McDonagh, Sauer and Del Zotto and keep them, there is no way to do that without making a significant cap move.

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12-28-2012, 02:06 PM
  #468
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The NHL sent the PA a 300 page document

As was pointed last night,the NHL wants an actual CBA in writing this time. The NHL sent the PA their vision of the CBA.

Quote:
Remember NHL wants more than memorandum of understanding that was signed in '95. Guessing this 300-page proposal addresses that.
https://twitter.com/cotsonika/status/284735334489661441

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12-28-2012, 02:11 PM
  #469
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The cap will be harder in the next CBA. There is no fine language.

Gaborik has a limited NTC. There are teams on the list which he can veto a trade to. There are 29 other teams in the NHL.

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12-28-2012, 02:29 PM
  #470
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
You dont think Nash is as good as Gaborik? Youre going to be in for a nice treat whenever they start playing again.
When healthy,Gaborik is unquestionably the superior player.

One of the biggest knocks people had on Gaborik was his inability to play seamlessly with Richards, after having no true #1 center his whole career. Nash is coming here in a similar situation and, quite frankly, I don't expect his production to magically explode with Broadway Brad either.

Nash was brought here to provide enough additional scoring to win us a cup. Not to be the #1 goal scoring threat. That is Marian's job.

Gaborikis one of the top 5 goal scoring threats in the league. As of right now, Nash is #12, maybe #11 is you're being harsh to Bobby Ryanafter a bad year.

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12-28-2012, 02:33 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
When healthy,Gaborik is unquestionably the superior player.

One of the biggest knocks people had on Gaborik was his inability to play seamlessly with Richards, after having no true #1 center his whole career. Nash is coming here in a similar situation and, quite frankly, I don't expect his production to magically explode with Broadway Brad either.

Nash was brought here to provide enough additional scoring to win us a cup. Not to be the #1 goal scoring threat. That is Marian's job.

Gaborikis one of the top 5 goal scoring threats in the league. As of right now, Nash is #12, maybe #11 is you're being harsh to Bobby Ryanafter a bad year.
And that's the biggest risk in Nash. You're paying him like a top 5-10 scorer for the next half dozen years (not to mention the assets you gave up to get him), when that's not what he is. If he helps get you the cup it's totally worth it...if not, well that's a different story. Time will tell.

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12-28-2012, 02:46 PM
  #472
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http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ec-27-proposal

• Ten-Year Agreement (through 2021/22 season); Parties have mutual opt-out right
after 8 years.

• 50-50 Revenue Split between Clubs and Players with current HRR Accounting.

• $300 million in “Make-Whole” payments (outside the system) to compensate Players
for the reduced value of Player contracts in the early years of the new CBA.

• No contractual “roll backs” of Player Salaries.

• Clubs can operate with an effective Upper Limit of $70.2 million in 2012/13; must
come into compliance with $60 million Upper Limit for the start of the 2013/14
season.


• Each Club will be entitled to execute up to one “Compliance Buy-Out” prior to the
2013/14 season pursuant to which payments made to the Player will not be charged
against the team’s Cap, but will be charged against the Players’ Share.


• Maximum contract length of 6 years subject to a Club’s ability to re-sign its own
Player for a term of up to 7 years (provided the Player played his last full season
with the re-signing Club). In addition, year-to-year Salary variability will be limited
(up or down) to no more than 10% of the value of the first year of a multi-year SPC.

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12-28-2012, 02:50 PM
  #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turcotte8 View Post
http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ec-27-proposal

• Ten-Year Agreement (through 2021/22 season); Parties have mutual opt-out right
after 8 years.

• 50-50 Revenue Split between Clubs and Players with current HRR Accounting.

• $300 million in “Make-Whole” payments (outside the system) to compensate Players
for the reduced value of Player contracts in the early years of the new CBA.

• No contractual “roll backs” of Player Salaries.

• Clubs can operate with an effective Upper Limit of $70.2 million in 2012/13; must
come into compliance with $60 million Upper Limit for the start of the 2013/14
season.


• Each Club will be entitled to execute up to one “Compliance Buy-Out” prior to the
2013/14 season pursuant to which payments made to the Player will not be charged
against the team’s Cap, but will be charged against the Players’ Share.


• Maximum contract length of 6 years subject to a Club’s ability to re-sign its own
Player for a term of up to 7 years (provided the Player played his last full season
with the re-signing Club). In addition, year-to-year Salary variability will be limited
(up or down) to no more than 10% of the value of the first year of a multi-year SPC.
Is that the NHL's proposal? Or just an opinion.

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12-28-2012, 02:50 PM
  #474
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No questions around it. This lockout has killed the Rangers. In more ways than one.

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12-28-2012, 02:51 PM
  #475
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That all looks good except the 60 million dollar cap. I hope the players push for 65 and the settle around 63. Then Gaborik may not HAVE to be traded. Either way, just get a deal done.

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