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Where would Lemieux rank without the cups?

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Old
12-28-2012, 12:39 PM
  #51
dennilfloss
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In my view, cups are won by teams and have little to no impact on how I view a player. How he plays during those cup runs does. You could have a player score 3 points every game and his team not win the Cup. All you need is a bad goalie on his team.

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12-28-2012, 12:51 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Considering the treatment Hasek gets around here by some, I flat out cannot believe the "his numbers stand on his own" crowd.
Yeah, no kidding. I bet there'd be a lot of "Lemieux may have scored at a rate of 2 PPG in the playoffs, but he just couldn't get it done when it mattered."

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12-28-2012, 12:57 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dennilfloss View Post
In my view, cups are won by teams and have little to no impact on how I view a player. How he plays during those cup runs does. You could have a player score 3 points every game and his team not win the Cup. All you need is a bad goalie on his team.
Cups are won by teams... Only a Gretzky or Mario level of talent can be expected to be the difference maker almost alone. And make a good team a Cup winner. No one can make a terrible team a Cup winner. A good team... plus a 2 PPG player should end in a Cup at least a few times.

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12-28-2012, 12:57 PM
  #54
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I think LEmieux would fall pretty far. Not only because no cups but without cups his flaws would be enhanced (arrogance, unwillingness to workout). He would become the rich mans Dionne.

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12-28-2012, 01:03 PM
  #55
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Not sure what to think, since Mario really stepped it up with those 44 and 35 point postseasons and showed us his big game peak, so those two cups were vitally important to his legend.

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12-28-2012, 01:07 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
I think LEmieux would fall pretty far. Not only because no cups but without cups his flaws would be enhanced (arrogance, unwillingness to workout). He would become the rich mans Dionne.
A very Rich man's Dionne. Jagr gets some negative wraps with his 5 scoring titles... I had him in an all-time History of Hockey team... He got ripped a lot. Mario would suffer from an even worse criticism with ZERO Cups. Except he is a true rich man's Dionne. How much can you push done the player with the 2nd best PPG ever... and an 199 point and 69 goals in 60 games season? How far can he go down in the All-Time list? Could he go behind Jagr? No Cups for Mario is no Cups for young Jagr!

Hull won 1 Cup with a great team for several years. Beliveau has 9 Cups! Could anyone really rank a Sakic, Yzerman, Trottier, Messier as better than Mario in any circumstance? Lafleur?

I think it is hard to drop Mario out of 4th place... but the 4th place is SOOOOO solid with the two Cups. Still 4th place without but with more doubts and no chance of arguments for higher than 4th.

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12-28-2012, 02:50 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
A very Rich man's Dionne. Jagr gets some negative wraps with his 5 scoring titles... I had him in an all-time History of Hockey team... He got ripped a lot. Mario would suffer from an even worse criticism with ZERO Cups. Except he is a true rich man's Dionne. How much can you push done the player with the 2nd best PPG ever... and an 199 point and 69 goals in 60 games season? How far can he go down in the All-Time list? Could he go behind Jagr? No Cups for Mario is no Cups for young Jagr!

Hull won 1 Cup with a great team for several years. Beliveau has 9 Cups! Could anyone really rank a Sakic, Yzerman, Trottier, Messier as better than Mario in any circumstance? Lafleur?

I think it is hard to drop Mario out of 4th place... but the 4th place is SOOOOO solid with the two Cups. Still 4th place without but with more doubts and no chance of arguments for higher than 4th.
I didnt say it would be warranted, I said it is what would happen. No cups equals a much bigger focus on his flaws and as to why henever won.
I never said he would actually sink below the top 10 but Beliveau would definitly get ranked ahead. Some would say Hull was better for sure, Richards? Maybe.

Dont forget that Lemieux also are the weakest in the top-4 when it comes to hardware. So people would point at that too and that it would be even weaker since he would have no smythes.

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12-28-2012, 03:22 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
I'm inclined to agree with much of this. I don't know if Lemieux drops from the top 4 or not, but he'd never be ranked higher than 4, that's for certain. What convincing arguement could you make for Lemieux over Gretzky if he doesn't ever win the cup? (IMO there's not really any convincing arguements for this already, but if he goes without ever winning one, there's really none at all).

A great example is Dan Marino in the NFL. At one time he had most the major passing records, but he never won a superbowl. The only time he made it, he lost to Montana and the 49ers, who beat them fairly handily, and Montana won superbowl MVP. Time and again I'd hear people say Marino was better, and every time someone would respond by saying that Montana had 4 rings, 3 superbowl MVPs, had never lost in the superbowl, never thrown an interception in the superbowl, and had beaten Dan Marino when he'd just come off his best season ever, in the superbowl. Its hard to convince people you're the best if you can't win a championship. Whether rightly or wrongly, some people will always point to the lack of championships as a sign you couldn't get it done in the clutch. And when you're being compared to someone who DID get it done, especially if they did it often, it's a hard sell indeed.
I agree. Not to get into a Football argument here but when you play 16 games a year at QB your main objective is winning all the time. Montana did that and was "Joe Cool" for a reason. Marino had too many moments where he played poor in a big game. We've seen this with Favre and to an extent Manning as well which is enough to hesitate me to put Manning #1..........as of now.

Other sports are similar to this. How does Jordan look without his rings? He looks like Karl Malone, probably, considering Basketball puts a lot of emphasis on their star players carrying the load.

Or Baseball? Why does Joe Dimaggio usually get ranked above Ted Williams? Well, other than being a better all around player it is because Dimaggio won 9 World Series and played in 10. Williams never won and played in just one where he did lousy. The Yankees also won their pennants at the expense of the Red Sox too (1949) which helps. Babe Ruth won 7 World Series (three as a pitcher) and Barry Bonds none. Bonds had some poor early playoff showings in his career and we never have that image of him as a champion. Mickey Mantle still holds the record for most Home Runs hit in the World Series (18). He won a lot and was a big part of it.

So enter Lemieux without those Cups. How can we even flirt with the idea of him being #1 if he never won the ultimate prize? And how much better would Beliveau or Richard look next to him with all those rings?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Did you read the OP? The assumption is that Lemieux scores at the same pace in the playoffs, so we're not talking about poor showing.
Yes I did, but in the OP we are talking about a universe in which Mario never even reaches a Cup final. I mean, Mats Sundin is a player who got criticized for that, imagine Mario. It would drastically change the way we see things. No big goal in 1991 splitting the Northstars defense, possibly no goal where he dekes Bourque out of his jock in 1992. Who knows the line up changes that happen if the Pens miss out in 1991 and 1992. No doubt his legend is altered.

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12-28-2012, 04:16 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I agree. Not to get into a Football argument here but when you play 16 games a year at QB your main objective is winning all the time. Montana did that and was "Joe Cool" for a reason. Marino had too many moments where he played poor in a big game. We've seen this with Favre and to an extent Manning as well which is enough to hesitate me to put Manning #1..........as of now.

Other sports are similar to this. How does Jordan look without his rings? He looks like Karl Malone, probably, considering Basketball puts a lot of emphasis on their star players carrying the load.

Or Baseball? Why does Joe Dimaggio usually get ranked above Ted Williams? Well, other than being a better all around player it is because Dimaggio won 9 World Series and played in 10. Williams never won and played in just one where he did lousy. The Yankees also won their pennants at the expense of the Red Sox too (1949) which helps. Babe Ruth won 7 World Series (three as a pitcher) and Barry Bonds none. Bonds had some poor early playoff showings in his career and we never have that image of him as a champion. Mickey Mantle still holds the record for most Home Runs hit in the World Series (18). He won a lot and was a big part of it.

So enter Lemieux without those Cups. How can we even flirt with the idea of him being #1 if he never won the ultimate prize? And how much better would Beliveau or Richard look next to him with all those rings?



Yes I did, but in the OP we are talking about a universe in which Mario never even reaches a Cup final. I mean, Mats Sundin is a player who got criticized for that, imagine Mario. It would drastically change the way we see things. No big goal in 1991 splitting the Northstars defense, possibly no goal where he dekes Bourque out of his jock in 1992. Who knows the line up changes that happen if the Pens miss out in 1991 and 1992. No doubt his legend is altered.
Wow, just wow. You know more about NA sports than any writer i have seen. Always pleasure to read your posts in history section.

On the matter,

I think Mario without cups would be pretty much the same. For me he is #4 all-time and frankly I cant see him drop lower. The sheer dominance he showed in the offensive zone is enough to put him in the same level as Gretzky. Mario without cups would most likely be the unanimous number 4 all-time. There would be little to none debate about if he was better than Orr/Howe/Gretzky.

I mean, the only forward who could match Lemieux's offensive output was Gretzky. There is no denying about the talent Lemieux had, and that is one of the ultimate best of all-time. Without the Cup wins there would be too much "what if's". Mario would still be #4, but the debate would be over for him.

1. Gretzky/Orr/.. Howe/ ........................... Lemieux

2.Beliveau, Shore, Richard, Hull....etc.

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Old
12-28-2012, 04:42 PM
  #60
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Wow, just wow. You know more about NA sports than any writer i have seen. Always pleasure to read your posts in history section.

On the matter,

I think Mario without cups would be pretty much the same. For me he is #4 all-time and frankly I cant see him drop lower. The sheer dominance he showed in the offensive zone is enough to put him in the same level as Gretzky. Mario without cups would most likely be the unanimous number 4 all-time. There would be little to none debate about if he was better than Orr/Howe/Gretzky.

I mean, the only forward who could match Lemieux's offensive output was Gretzky. There is no denying about the talent Lemieux had, and that is one of the ultimate best of all-time. Without the Cup wins there would be too much "what if's". Mario would still be #4, but the debate would be over for him.

1. Gretzky/Orr/.. Howe/ ........................... Lemieux

2.Beliveau, Shore, Richard, Hull....etc.
Hey, you still might be right. As it stands the gap from #4-5 is noticeable whether that's Hull, Beliveau, Harvey, etc. Lemieux without his Cups still has 6 scoring titles, the Harts, the 1987 Canada Cup and Canada still wins every tournament at the top level that he plays in. Beliveau definitely does not reach the regular season dominance of Lemieux, nor does Hull. It is entirely possible that Lemieux stays in the same spot. I guess that's the beauty of speculation, we can guess.

So if Lemieux never wins a Cup how does he do against guys from other sports who never won? Is he the best to never win a championship? Interesting. Here is his competition:

Lemieux, Barry Bonds, Ted Williams, Ty Cobb, Dan Marino, Karl Malone, Charles Barkley, Marcel Dionne, Brad Park.

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