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LeBrun: NHL made new offer to NHLPA on Thursday (12/27)

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:12 PM
  #101
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I'm interested in hearing theories as to how cancellation of the season in any way benefits the players. At that point, the owners are dug in and hold all the cards. They're not losing pay checks.

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12-28-2012, 01:13 PM
  #102
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Thanks, Chewsick.

If we're talking about a $70M cap for this season and 50% split at the same time, that is effectively a "contractual rollback" of rather large proportions regardless of the words used. The $300M certainly helps with that, not sure exactly how much.

Not making a judgement, just calling it what it is.

At the end of the day, it's still all coming back to the same issue - whether XX% is a suitable split. Doesn't really sound like a whole lot of progress has been made.

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12-28-2012, 01:14 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
Another Bettman trick just before cancelling the season. The PA will ensure this goes to a logical conclusion: 2 years of court before determining Bettman has been negotiating in bad faith.
Lawyer buddy I know says that the details of deal and that it addresses all apsects, including those already discussed during summer, is meant to kickstart negotiations but also can serve as an exhibit piece in court to show negotiation in good faith (and kill any chance on the PA's side to the contrary).

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Old
12-28-2012, 01:14 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
I'm interested in hearing theories as to how cancellation of the season in any way benefits the players.
There is no way to know one way or the other until the final deal is done.

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12-28-2012, 01:16 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
... can serve as an exhibit piece in court to show negotiation in good faith (and kill any chance on the PA's side to the contrary).
It may help in the short-short run with the DOI thing, but if the PA truly wants to decertify, there is nothing that can stop them from doing so.

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12-28-2012, 01:18 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
I'm interested in hearing theories as to how cancellation of the season in any way benefits the players. At that point, the owners are dug in and hold all the cards. They're not losing pay checks.
It doesn't benefit the players. And it doesn't benefit the owners. It hurts both owners and players. It hurts the players more.

However, the players apparently feel the owners have a lower tolerance for pain than the players themselves do, thus the willingness to stand in front of the 100 MPH slapshot that is another cancelled season.

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12-28-2012, 01:19 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Lawyer buddy I know says that the details of deal and that it addresses all apsects, including those already discussed during summer, is meant to kickstart negotiations but also can serve as an exhibit piece in court to show negotiation in good faith (and kill any chance on the PA's side to the contrary).
Bingo.

I would take this deal with a grain of salt at this point. If they are covering virtually every aspect it is either two things:

1. They are really trying to reach a deal before the season is cancelled

2. The sides are so far apart that neither believes a season will resume, so the NHL is planning for court battles


And whoever said the PA wouldn't take a 50-50 split is wrong, most players have stated that is what they indeed want and believe to be fair. Why they don't just make the max contract length 7 years and shorten the CBA term we might never know.

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12-28-2012, 01:19 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It may help in the short-short run with the DOI thing, but if the PA truly wants to decertify, there is nothing that can stop them from doing so.
Correct. Thank you for amplifying. That's meant to be the PA's stance that the League did not negotiate in good faith only.

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12-28-2012, 01:19 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by i am dave View Post
I'm interested in hearing theories as to how cancellation of the season in any way benefits the players. At that point, the owners are dug in and hold all the cards. They're not losing pay checks.
The average player would have made more money in their career if they had accpeted the leagues best offer to play 82 games vs losing a whole season and playing next at the 57% CBA they had last year. So in essence the average player (avg salary avg career length) has already lost the ability to maximize their career earnings, expecially considering that even losing a whole season would not get them the 57% they had last year.

The argument ofcourse can be made that this is for the beenfit of future players, not just the current ones. So in the long run, on aggregate, all players together benefit more by losing the whole season and gettign a better deal cause of it. That's essentially impossible to calculate cause of the unknonw effect on the business the lost seaosn will have.

Now if the lost season results in a disbanded union and free agency for everyone. IT could be argued that the players would in fact gain more, cause of the free spending ways of foolish owners pre-salary cap. Conversely though, one could argue the "competitive balance" created by the cap is the whole reason the leagues revenues grew so high, so an era of haves vs have nots would decrease over all revenues and the average player salary.

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12-28-2012, 01:20 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Lawyer buddy I know says that the details of deal and that it addresses all apsects, including those already discussed during summer, is meant to kickstart negotiations but also can serve as an exhibit piece in court to show negotiation in good faith (and kill any chance on the PA's side to the contrary).
There is no way the PA can argue "good faith" in court..... The league has touched on all the issues in every offer. If Fehr pushes this to the courts then he is going after the Cap.

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12-28-2012, 01:25 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
The first offer was fair and this one is a little better..... Fehr and the NHLPA will counter offer and if it's a reasonable counter a deal will get done. If they counter with some crap at 54-56 percent of revenue going to the players again then the season is all but lost. My guess is Fehr smells blood in the water and makes another unreasonable counter and there will be no hockey this year but I hope I am wrong.
There is no blood in the water to really smell. The NHL is not really moving on any of the financial bottom line issues and have hammered away at things enough that the contract loopholes will be closed up to a significant degree.

This offer is written up for a reason in what is likely a fully executable form for a reason and that reason extends beyond any potential court dates. That reason is the NHL is done moving on any of the issues that fundamentally affect the bottom line (full linkage 50% share, major contract loopholes). They are telling the PA to feel free to nibble along the edges and tailor things more to your favour but stay away from the true money issues. We aren't really interested in discussing those any longer. The massive leak of details is also a straight offer to the players to look at the complete deal and pressure the PA leadership to settle if it is pleasing to them.

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12-28-2012, 01:26 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
There is no way the PA can argue "good faith" in court..... The league has touched on all the issues in every offer. If Fehr pushes this to the courts then he is going after the Cap.
There is no need to go to court to "go after the cap". The union decertifying would take care of the cap. It's illegal outside a CBA. IF there's no union theres no CBA, no Cap, no draft, no guaranteed contracts, no minimum contract etc etc etc.

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12-28-2012, 01:26 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Correct. Thank you for amplifying. That's meant to be the PA's stance that the League did not negotiate in good faith only.
I'm genuinely curious if the PA really wants to pursue the decertification path. All the major sports in NA have danced around the issue for the past couple of decades - some sport is inevitably going to go first - I could see hockey being that sport.

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12-28-2012, 01:30 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by xkirax View Post
lol people keep saying these players don't know whats good for them and they should be fighting for there own pay. Well if they take it to courts each player can sue for there own contract and get paid what they are owed and them some. So If the league closes down the players still get paid and these players win right? plus they make more then they would with triple paychecks coming their ways.

Btw the league would not shut down this is just what pro owners keep saying what will happen is that the league will file for bankruptcy. Then other owners will take over a lot of the teams for pennys on the dollar. Then a new set of owners will be in place but will have learned the lessons of the old owners don't screw the players to much...

Edit... F the 4th and 5th linemen they don't put BOS no one gives a darn about them only time they do is when it comes to negotiations. They will be out of the league in a year or 2 anyways so why should what they think even matter? They don't like it they can join the other leagues like they always do. Plus because they are other leagues they will be ok because they cant make less then they could in other leagues and will prob make more anyways
Can you clarify what you said in the bolded text?

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12-28-2012, 01:38 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
I'm genuinely curious if the PA really wants to pursue the decertification path. All the major sports in NA have danced around the issue for the past couple of decades - some sport is inevitably going to go first - I could see hockey being that sport.
The actual NHLPA job that Fehr has certainly isn't going to impress anyone by itself. Wow, the NHLPA...what, that's like, part of a sports league or something? A far bigger fight like the one you mention could justify Donald Fehr stooping down to the level of the NHL.

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12-28-2012, 01:47 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
There is no blood in the water to really smell. The NHL is not really moving on any of the financial bottom line issues and have hammered away at things enough that the contract loopholes will be closed up to a significant degree.

This offer is written up for a reason in what is likely a fully executable form for a reason and that reason extends beyond any potential court dates. That reason is the NHL is done moving on any of the issues that fundamentally affect the bottom line (full linkage 50% share, major contract loopholes). They are telling the PA to feel free to nibble along the edges and tailor things more to your favour but stay away from the true money issues. We aren't really interested in discussing those any longer. The massive leak of details is also a straight offer to the players to look at the complete deal and pressure the PA leadership to settle if it is pleasing to them.
The PA's last counter offer to the owners had around 54-55 percent of the revenue going to the players even though the owners made it clear that 50/50 was the only split they are willing to agree to. So why would anyone think that the PA lead by Fehr will not again counter with a revenue split above 50/50?

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12-28-2012, 01:49 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
There is no need to go to court to "go after the cap". The union decertifying would take care of the cap. It's illegal outside a CBA. IF there's no union theres no CBA, no Cap, no draft, no guaranteed contracts, no minimum contract etc etc etc.
I am aware, but if this goes to the summer Fehr will attack the cap in negotiations with the league that will play out in court. His goal will be to get a new CBA with no cap.

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12-28-2012, 01:50 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
The actual NHLPA job that Fehr has certainly isn't going to impress anyone by itself. Wow, the NHLPA...what, that's like, part of a sports league or something? A far bigger fight like the one you mention could justify Donald Fehr stooping down to the level of the NHL.
Had to read that twice - correct me if I'm misinterpreting - are you suggesting that perhaps the reason Fehr took this giant step downwards from MLB is because there might be an historic/legacy opportunity re: decertification?

If I've read you right, I'm inclined to agree.

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12-28-2012, 01:57 PM
  #119
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It's interesting to note that the owners have not given the players a drop-dead date yet. The players have to go to sleep at night not knowing if the lights are going to be flipped off when they wake up.
From about an hour ago:

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Tom Gulitti ‏@TGfireandice

Told that NHL expressed to NHLPA at start of proposal drop dead date for start of 2012-13 -- Saturday, Jan. 19.

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12-28-2012, 01:57 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Major4Boarding View Post
Details of offer, per ESPN

http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...ec-27-proposal

Some snips...
Good night, a $60 Million cap? What the heck are they trying to do, make sure it's impossible to field a decent team? Good grief... Tell me current SPCs cap hits are at least going to go down with the cap... Perish the thought of all the teams that are above 60 million after this year that will be affected by this... For crying out loud! What a bunch of bull crap.

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12-28-2012, 01:59 PM
  #121
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Good night, a $60 Million cap? What the heck are they trying to do, make sure it's impossible to field a decent team? Good grief... Tell me current SPCs cap hits are at least going to go down with the cap... Perish the thought of all the teams that are above 60 million after this year that will be affected by this... For crying out loud! What a bunch of bull crap.
Players in turn get paid less money.

I'm not in favor of either side but the owners have became more and more stupid by some of this.

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12-28-2012, 02:01 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
I am aware, but if this goes to the summer Fehr will attack the cap in negotiations with the league that will play out in court. His goal will be to get a new CBA with no cap.
The owners will fold the league before they agree to a CBA with no cap. There is absolutely no going back.

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12-28-2012, 02:01 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Good night, a $60 Million cap? What the heck are they trying to do, make sure it's impossible to field a decent team? Good grief... Tell me current SPCs cap hits are at least going to go down with the cap... Perish the thought of all the teams that are above 60 million after this year that will be affected by this... For crying out loud! What a bunch of bull crap.
It will offer more league parity and force teams into good buisness practices.

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12-28-2012, 02:02 PM
  #124
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The owners will fold the league before they agree to a CBA with no cap. There is absolutely no going back.
I agree but tell that to Donald Fehr

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12-28-2012, 02:09 PM
  #125
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Offer:
The following is the highlights of the latest proposal from the NHL to the NHL Players' Association:

- Ten-Year Agreement (through 2021/22 season); Parties have mutual opt-out right after 8 years.

- 50-50 Revenue Split between Clubs and Players with current HRR Accounting.

- $300 million in "Make-Whole" payments (outside the system) to compensate Players for the reduced value of Player contracts in the early years of the new CBA.

- No contractual "roll backs" of Player Salaries.

- Clubs can operate with an effective Upper Limit of $70.2 million in 2012/13; must come into compliance with $60 million Upper Limit for the start of the 2013/14

season.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412383

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"Itís not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, itís as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."

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