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Roster Talk '13 — Finland

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:37 AM
  #551
Ville231
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I'm starting to understand the meaning of Mikael Granlund last year. The leadership he brought is missing this year. Even though that team had a terrible game plan and Raipes coaching was far from excellent. That team still managed to show a lot of heart and played a tight team game. Those are the qualitie this years team seems to be lacking.

Someone has to take over otherwise this team will be heading to the relegation round. Everything is still possible, and its in our own hands. But something needs to happen, rather sooner than later.

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12-28-2012, 10:48 AM
  #552
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Why on earth was Järveläinen taken over Ikonen or Haapala anyways?

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12-28-2012, 10:53 AM
  #553
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Why on earth was Järveläinen taken over Ikonen or Haapala anyways?
Neither showed much in two exhibition games plus previous U-20 games this season.

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12-28-2012, 10:55 AM
  #554
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Why on earth was Järveläinen taken over Ikonen or Haapala anyways?
Järveläinen plays for Peliitat - 3rd coach Petri Karjalainen is the head coach of Peliitat.

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12-28-2012, 11:03 AM
  #555
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but now Armia's forced to do too much on his own because MaG is terrible and weak.
MaG hasn't been good but how's Armia helping him? Aside from a couple of excellent passes he's been one of the black holes on this roster. Always tries to make the fancy play instead of the smart one and those turnovers... Just stupid, immature mistakes all over the ice. If he wasn't such an important piece of the team, I'd bench him for the next game to teach some discipline.

Barkov's stats look bad but now that he's playing with boys it's almost laughable how mature he really is. It's sad that he can't be that effective with team full of bug hogs who are not playing for the team... A lot of it has to do with coaching, I have no idea why they seem to think it's not that important who coaches the U20-team (first Helminen, now Rindell... ).

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12-28-2012, 11:28 AM
  #556
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MaG hasn't been good but how's Armia helping him? Aside from a couple of excellent passes he's been one of the black holes on this roster. Always tries to make the fancy play instead of the smart one and those turnovers... Just stupid, immature mistakes all over the ice. If he wasn't such an important piece of the team, I'd bench him for the next game to teach some discipline.
Armia was one of the biggest culprits today of not playing according to the system, you don't carry the puck in the neutral zone against an organized defense in Meidän Peli, you pass through it or dump the puck in.

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12-28-2012, 11:35 AM
  #557
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The 1st line should be rebuild. It's horribad now. Barkov there and **** will happen.

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12-28-2012, 11:52 AM
  #558
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MaG hasn't been good but how's Armia helping him? Aside from a couple of excellent passes he's been one of the black holes on this roster. Always tries to make the fancy play instead of the smart one and those turnovers... Just stupid, immature mistakes all over the ice. If he wasn't such an important piece of the team, I'd bench him for the next game to teach some discipline.

Barkov's stats look bad but now that he's playing with boys it's almost laughable how mature he really is. It's sad that he can't be that effective with team full of bug hogs who are not playing for the team... A lot of it has to do with coaching, I have no idea why they seem to think it's not that important who coaches the U20-team (first Helminen, now Rindell... ).
You're right about Armia, but this is exactly what kind of a player he is even in SM-liiga for the most part. It's not something you can change in a matter of weeks. Despite all that, he CAN (skill wise) step up and win games for us, but MaG can't because he's not great at anything but mediocre or decent at most things. He can make good passes, but can't control the pace of the game or defend like Barkov, he's not strong like Salomäki and doesn't possess Armia's sniping skills.

There seem to be players (namely certain forwards) on the team who indeed don't play for the team, at least that was my conclusion after reading Määttä's comments after today's game. Unfortunately we can't scratch them from the lineup. Rindell said some time ago that there are some challenging personalities on the squad and that many of these boys are extremely ambitious. While I never really expected Rindell to be able to keep them in line, I wanted to think that Tomek's authority would be enough. I still hold on to that hope.

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12-28-2012, 12:18 PM
  #559
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In my books I slotted in one loss in the preliminary round, and by default it would have been to Sweden. Winning Sweden is still IMO more unlikely than winning this game was. If they manage to win both Sweden and Switzerland, we'll be in a decent position, but I just don't see it as likely as you probably do.

If they had lost to the Czechs after an overall decent team effort, I would not be nearly as pessimistic, but for the most part they didn't do well at all.

All the necessary parts seem to be there, but making the whole package work is a whole another thing. It seemed to work last week, so it could start working again, but it is worrying that they play worse now than last weekend. If they get their crap together, anything is possible but I don't know if I believe in that happening as much as you do.
Oh, c'mon. Whenever had we had a NT tournament, no matter the end result and age level, with absolutely zero drama? The last time we came even close was in Turin. And even after that, we've had some medals, even a championship.

We lost to the Czech Republic. I repeat, the Czech Republic. Last time I checked, they were a legitimate hockey power who have a team here that is not full of pushovers. Yes, we had and have even better individuals, but one thing being a Finnish hockey fan should have taught us is that the better team on paper does not always win. It's admittedly a strange feeling being on the side of the favorite and losing, but on the larger scale there is nothing world-turning here. Yet some of you are behaving as if the next game was already lost as well.

Can I say we will win it? No, and neither can I say that we will medal. But neither can you say that we can't.

One of the biggest reasons I believe we still have a chance to turn this is because we seem to actually have coaches who are willing to try different things instead of just magically sticking to the predetermined plan, hoping it will click in the end. We actually got a pretty decent giveaway of that with today's game. Who was the extra attacker they sent out after they pulled the goalie? Not exactly somebody you'd have expected.

Some may see a brainfart in it, I see the right mentality to actually try something different. Whether it'll work in the end is a whole another story, but there is nothing in the history that suggests it couldn't.

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Russia is too strong. So is Canada. I bet Swedes are too. And USA for sure. We'll see about Switzerland. But a medal is just too much asked. Let's be realistic. This team is not good enough. F. ex. 1st line is downright bad. One Armia won't win the games.
But if we are to believe you, sir, one Aaltonen will apparently make all the difference.

Just get out of here. Doomsaying, such typical Finnish "fandom". It may give you a quantum of solace if the worst comes to pass when you can always gloat with a "told you so". But if they turn this over, you'll be out there partying with the rest of us. And full aware that nobody bothers to remind you of losing faith.

And save me all the "just being a realist" crap also. Acknowledging the possibility of losing is realistic. Saying it will happen for sure is nothing but pathetic.

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Järveläinen plays for Peliitat - 3rd coach Petri Karjalainen is the head coach of Peliitat.
May have helped. But I'd still say that the 5+1 in seven preliminary games this season was even bigger factor.

Personally, I questioned the pick and still do. But on the other hand, it is difficult to build a case out of it either.

Still, even if we had Bilbo Baggins out there (and to be honest, might as well), aiming your anger towards a blindside third line pick when Armia, Barkov, Lehkonen and other high profile guys don't do their jobs and find the net, questioning his presence is not just barking up the wrong tree - but one that stands on the other side of the city altogether.

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12-28-2012, 12:24 PM
  #560
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The 1st line should be rebuild. It's horribad now. Barkov there and **** will happen.
No guarantee Barkov and Armia would have chemistry together.

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12-28-2012, 12:32 PM
  #561
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I wouldn't change anything yet. It was a lackluster performance from every line. I think the lines are fine but effort level was close to zero and there was too much soloing.

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12-28-2012, 12:38 PM
  #562
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But if we are to believe you, sir, one Aaltonen will apparently make all the difference.

Just get out of here. Doomsaying, such typical Finnish "fandom". It may give you a quantum of solace if the worst comes to pass when you can always gloat with a "told you so". But if they turn this over, you'll be out there partying with the rest of us. And full aware that nobody bothers to remind you of losing faith.

And save me all the "just being a realist" crap also. Acknowledging the possibility of losing is realistic. Saying it will happen for sure is nothing but pathetic.
Firstly, the team balance was lost when Aaltonen went out. It made this team weaker it should have but it did. Finland lacks quality forwards, after all, and Aaltonen was one of the few.

Secondly, this team cannot even dream of winning the top countries without sticking to a strict game plan. And it doesn't look like that. Armia is a fine example. Too good to bother.

A medal would be a big surprise. But if they can turn this over I'm more than ready to admit I was wrong.

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12-28-2012, 12:51 PM
  #563
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Firstly, the team balance was lost when Aaltonen went out. It made this team weaker it should have but it did. Finland lacks quality forwards, after all, and Aaltonen was one of the few.
Funny, in my opinion this team is still stacked with them. We may have less than some other top countries, yes, but are still clearly above our usual average.

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Secondly, this team cannot even dream of winning the top countries without sticking to a strict game plan. And it doesn't look like that. Armia is a fine example. Too good to bother.
But maybe we should have less, considering this point. *sigh* Nothing is ever satisfactory. Either we lose because we have a team full of workhorses who can't score their way out of a wet paper bag, or a squad of individiualistic divas who take a dump on the team effort.

Still, I have to admit, lack of effort and not sticking to the plan are legitimate concerns. At least less name-heavy team wouldn't have that problem. But if I may point out, you're sort of contradicting yourself here. First saying that we lack quality forwards, then pouring most of the blame on those we have. You can't really have it both ways.

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A medal would be a big surprise. But if they can turn this over I'm more than ready to admit I was wrong.
Fair enough.

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12-28-2012, 01:21 PM
  #564
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So crazy that Czech seems to be the one winning the whole group. Sweden's point loss definately saved my day and now we can have a real battle against Sweden instead of a meaningless game. Facing a tough Swiss and Sweden in back to back days might be a real problem though...

Dec. 30 18:00 13:00 7:00 AM Czech Republic vs. Latvia
Dec. 31 13:30 08:30 2:30 AM Switzerland vs. Czech Republic

Hopefully Latvia messes up Czech's game like they may have done to Finland before Czech faces Swiss the next day, so Czech loses a point vs Swiss and Finland has a chance to win the group again. That's our best hope in winning the group .


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12-28-2012, 01:28 PM
  #565
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So crazy that Czech seems to be the one winning the whole group. Sweden's point loss definately saved my day and now we can have a real battle against Sweden instead of a meaningless game. Facing a tough Swiss and Sweden in back to back days might be a real problem though...
Not exactly. If the Swedes beat us in any manner, they'll still win the group on points. Unless there's an upset against the Czechs (either Latvia or the Swiss rob points), the best we can achieve is 2nd seed.

It would have been better if the Swedes had won on regulation, since by then we'd still have a shot of our own to create a three-way tie and have the breaker go our way. Now that chance is pretty much lost.

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12-28-2012, 01:29 PM
  #566
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Oh, c'mon. Whenever had we had a NT tournament, no matter the end result and age level, with absolutely zero drama? The last time we came even close was in Turin. And even after that, we've had some medals, even a championship.

We lost to the Czech Republic. I repeat, the Czech Republic. Last time I checked, they were a legitimate hockey power who have a team here that is not full of pushovers. Yes, we had and have even better individuals, but one thing being a Finnish hockey fan should have taught us is that the better team on paper does not always win. It's admittedly a strange feeling being on the side of the favorite and losing, but on the larger scale there is nothing world-turning here. Yet some of you are behaving as if the next game was already lost as well.

Can I say we will win it? No, and neither can I say that we will medal. But neither can you say that we can't.

One of the biggest reasons I believe we still have a chance to turn this is because we seem to actually have coaches who are willing to try different things instead of just magically sticking to the predetermined plan, hoping it will click in the end. We actually got a pretty decent giveaway of that with today's game. Who was the extra attacker they sent out after they pulled the goalie? Not exactly somebody you'd have expected.

Some may see a brainfart in it, I see the right mentality to actually try something different. Whether it'll work in the end is a whole another story, but there is nothing in the history that suggests it couldn't.
The Czechs have been worse than us in the WJCs lately, last year we beat them clearly with worse material and worse coaching. I don't think the CZE-SWE game this year necessarily showed the truth about the Czechs' level, but still, this was a game we should have won. Losing to the Czechs today doesn't automatically mean we'll get crushed by the Swedes, but it does put more pressure on the team. The SWE-FIN game should motivate both teams and it could be quite even, as the Swedes haven't looked that hot so far either.

However, with the kind of lackluster performance that was seen from many of our players today, we will seriously struggle to beat the Swiss (assuming they play as well as they did today). The under performing and selfish plays need to stop right now.

I get what you're saying, though, it was so annoying when last spring almost everyone was practically slitting their wrists after the catastrophic USA loss on Mother's Day and they were all so convinced that we couldn't beat the USA in the QF. I wasn't among those people, because that team had a true leader and a quality coach and I believed they could fix things, and they did. Still, this team doesn't have a Mikko Koivu, neither Rindell or Valtonen is J. Jalonen and we're talking about a bunch of teenagers, not grown men. I'm not saying they can't fix it this time, but to you it seems more likely than to me.

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12-28-2012, 01:34 PM
  #567
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Not exactly. If the Swedes beat us in any manner, they'll still win the group on points. Unless there's an upset against the Czechs (either Latvia or the Swiss rob points), the best we can achieve is 2nd seed.

It would have been better if the Swedes had won on regulation, since by then we'd still have a shot of our own to create a three-way tie and have the breaker go our way. Now that chance is pretty much lost.
Yeah I know. I was assuming that we'd beat SWE. Which we will. I just really really want that Finland has a chance to play for the group win in the last game.

Chance to play for the group win in the last game & taking that necessary loss (CZE loss) so our guys start playing properly. If this happens, this loss might turn out really great for Finland. Even better than a win. How crazy is that .


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12-28-2012, 01:42 PM
  #568
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I'm not saying they can't fix it this time, but to you it seems more likely than to me.
The reason I'm so confident is because despite some tournaments definitely being roller coasters with ups and downs (last year's WJC is a prime example, actually), I can't recall too many instances when we have had two bad games in a row, if any. Do you?

Mentality is a big part of junior hockey, in fact both us and the Swedes proved it today. Both had clearly got comfortable due to the good showings thus far and had a wake-up call served by seemingly weaker opponent.

Given the lesson we got served today and the tight battle our next opponent gave the Swedes, and the history of picking up the effort after a bad game, I just don't see an equation where our guys will ride into the next battle with every button and zipper flapping in the wind. With the added fact that these kids probably hate losing even more than their adult counterparts, I'd say it almost becomes a nigh impossibility.

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Yeah I know. I was assuming that we'd beat SWE. Which we will. I just really really want that Finland has a chance to play for the group win in the last game.
Like I just said, that would exactly have been the case had Sweden not lost points. At worst, we could do it with a hefty GD, at best the Czechs lose points regardless and become a non-issue.

Now, we have to rely on either SUI or LAT helping us. A long shot.

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12-28-2012, 01:52 PM
  #569
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Now, we have to rely on either SUI or LAT helping us. A long shot.
Yep. Long shot for sure. I just think we'll be screwed if we don't win the group and we're gonna see a repeat of last year. It's too important in this tournament to win the group which is the only thing that I don't like about this tournament. Our team will be too tired in the semi-final game if we'll have to get there the hard way, which means having that extra game.

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12-28-2012, 02:03 PM
  #570
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Finland will likely be 3rd in the group. My guess is they will face Russia in the QF. And we all know how that will end. Too bad this tourney is most likely over before it even started properly.

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12-28-2012, 02:12 PM
  #571
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The reason I'm so confident is because despite some tournaments definitely being roller coasters with ups and downs (last year's WJC is a prime example, actually), I can't recall too many instances when we have had two bad games in a row, if any. Do you?
Depends on what you'd count as a bad game. Do only losses (after having played a bad game) count as bad games or are wins achieved despite playing terribly counted as well? I wouldn't necessarily call this year's Latvia game terrible, but it wasn't good either.

The men's team won both Belarus and Slovakia with play that left a lot to be desired last spring, and half of the team wet their pants in the 2nd period of the Canada game (after playing a fantastic game for the 1st half of the game) and then played an awful game against the USA after that.

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12-28-2012, 02:19 PM
  #572
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Finland will likely be 3rd in the group. My guess is they will face Russia in the QF. And we all know how that will end. Too bad this tourney is most likely over before it even started properly.
I see Finland beating Russia in the QF if that match happens, but Finland would lose to a North-American team in the QF. Beating Russia in the QF would be meaningless tho as we'd lose the semifinal due to being tired and having to play in back to back days. I predict that Russia will win their group though.

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12-28-2012, 02:25 PM
  #573
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Depends on what you'd count as a bad game. Do only losses (after having played a bad game) count as bad games or are wins achieved despite playing terribly counted as well? I wouldn't necessarily call this year's Latvia game terrible, but it wasn't good either.
A game that is won can't be completely bad. It's not like other teams can't put up lackluster efforts at time but still manage to win regardless.

Unless the team gets their act together and starts playing to the cap of their potential, gold might become nothing more than a pipe dream - that much is true. But a few lucky bounces and just hanging on thanks to the material still being competitive can very well lead to a medal even if the effort doesn't improve a lot from what we saw today. Last year, we were two minutes away from the final with such a showing.

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12-28-2012, 02:50 PM
  #574
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Finland will likely be 3rd in the group. My guess is they will face Russia in the QF. And we all know how that will end. Too bad this tourney is most likely over before it even started properly.
I think that facing RUS in the QF/SF is the best option for every team in this group after the preliminary round games are over, since the other options are CAN or USA. Yes, the russians won a tight game today vs the US, but I still think that RUS would choke in a QF match vs FIN, SWE or CZE (or even SWI actually)...

Both preliminary groups' final standings are really impossible to predict at this stage, but in case e.g. CZE wins Group A and FIN is 3rd, and RUS is 2nd in Group B, facing the russians in the QF and then the czechs in the semifinals would be a pretty good scenario for the Finns, don't you think?

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12-28-2012, 04:46 PM
  #575
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I don't see it as a longshot that Swiss steal points from Czechs. Both looked good today in their games. Infact the Swiss played a very complete game against Sweden and if they continue on a same level they will make it a very tough game for the Czechs. I'm expecting a very tight game between them.

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