HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

2012-13 Lockout Discussion Part X: Is There Any Hope? Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-28-2012, 02:52 PM
  #476
turcotte8
Registered User
 
turcotte8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,872
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Is that the NHL's proposal? Or just an opinion.
According to ESPN that is the NHL's newest proposal.

turcotte8 is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:01 PM
  #477
DutchShamrock
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 5,000
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfish View Post
LOL of course.

Fehr counters with: No contract term-limits. Demands $400 million make-whole, and unrestricted free-agency at age 23 with a 5 year CBA coupled with a PA option to terminate in years 3, 4, and 5 But still has the balls to claim he "worked off" the NHL's offer, and is negotiating in good faith
Right. Because the last pa offer didn't touch ufa age, had an 8 year cba, 8 year cap on contracts, a variance cap, and no counter on make whole. Pretty rational post. Kudos

DutchShamrock is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:17 PM
  #478
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,828
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RGY View Post
Is that the NHL's proposal? Or just an opinion.
Cap next year will be "hypothetical" with no numbers this year calculate of.

This is the poor teams pushing for a shake up of the power balance of the NHL. Sucks for us. Is amazing for Detroit, Colorado and a few others.

But many are worse of the. We are. We can trade one good player for good assets. Boston did that with Kessel. Many other clubs has a tougher time.

Ola is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:17 PM
  #479
TheRedressor
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Country: United Nations
Posts: 3,722
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
If the cap drops to 60 million and they want to re-sign Hagelin, Stepan, McDonagh, Sauer and Del Zotto and keep them, there is no way to do that without making a significant cap move.
I think we are all forgeting one key factor here.....THE ABILITY TO TRADE FOR CAP SPACE

You have to figure that the Rangers will be in on that if they need to in order to keep the team together.

TheRedressor is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:18 PM
  #480
egelband
Registered User
 
egelband's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Yokohama
Country: United States
Posts: 2,026
vCash: 500
i guess this is pretty much the last chance for a season, right? this offer...

egelband is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:18 PM
  #481
Ola
Registered User
 
Ola's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 17,828
vCash: 500
Slats so stiff. Sign MDZ to a 6m 1y contract before the season starts. Then resign him in the summer for 500k 1y. Let people complain.

Ola is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:21 PM
  #482
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRedressor View Post
I think we are all forgeting one key factor here.....THE ABILITY TO TRADE FOR CAP SPACE

You have to figure that the Rangers will be in on that if they need to in order to keep the team together.
Woah, I must have missed that. If that is the case that would be sweet.

NYR Viper is online now  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:27 PM
  #483
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 10,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRedressor View Post
I think we are all forgeting one key factor here.....THE ABILITY TO TRADE FOR CAP SPACE

You have to figure that the Rangers will be in on that if they need to in order to keep the team together.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
Woah, I must have missed that. If that is the case that would be sweet.
I believe that was in the players' last proposal. Is it confirmed that it was also in this latest proposal from the league?

If so, that would be sweet indeed... (Although I'm not sure how happy I'd be with Slats continually dealing away our first every year for another $3MM in space...)

BrooklynRangersFan is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:27 PM
  #484
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,770
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by egelband View Post
i guess this is pretty much the last chance for a season, right? this offer...
Not necessarily the last chance...but we are getting close. A deal needs to get done by the 2nd week of January or it's probably not happening.

broadwayblue is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:28 PM
  #485
RGY
(Jagr68NYR94Leetch)
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Long Island, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 8,532
vCash: 500
Can someone explain how trading cap space would work? Excuse my ignorance but I just don't see what that does.

RGY is online now  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:28 PM
  #486
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,198
vCash: 500
The teams have until the beginning of next season for compliance buyouts. Which means the Rangers can resign all their guys this summer and then decide who to buyout after. If you're only $2m away, why trade Gaborik?

Tawnos is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:34 PM
  #487
KreiMeARiver*
Have Confidence
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: UES
Posts: 6,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DutchShamrock View Post
Right. Because the last pa offer didn't touch ufa age, had an 8 year cba, 8 year cap on contracts, a variance cap, and no counter on make whole. Pretty rational post. Kudos
If any of you guys are old enough to remember the MLB strike, you'd know this is something Fehr would actually do.

He's just as much of a POS as Bettman.

KreiMeARiver* is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:41 PM
  #488
mschmidt64
Registered User
 
mschmidt64's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 833
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Antithesis View Post
When healthy,Gaborik is unquestionably the superior player.

One of the biggest knocks people had on Gaborik was his inability to play seamlessly with Richards, after having no true #1 center his whole career. Nash is coming here in a similar situation and, quite frankly, I don't expect his production to magically explode with Broadway Brad either.

Nash was brought here to provide enough additional scoring to win us a cup. Not to be the #1 goal scoring threat. That is Marian's job.

Gaborikis one of the top 5 goal scoring threats in the league. As of right now, Nash is #12, maybe #11 is you're being harsh to Bobby Ryanafter a bad year.
If you are saying Nash is only as good as Bobby Ryan, I think I have to question that.

Nash is a legit 40 goal scorer.

He's a different TYPE of player than Gaborik, but I think he's every bit as adept at lighting the lamp.

mschmidt64 is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:42 PM
  #489
Inferno
HFB Partner
 
Inferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Atlanta, GA
Country: United States
Posts: 20,258
vCash: 500
Nash and Gaborik are so different its ridiculous. Both bring different aspects to their team, both are effective.

Id rather make some cuts elsewhere than to lose Gabby.

Inferno is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:49 PM
  #490
RangerBoy
#freejtmiller
 
RangerBoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 31,896
vCash: 500
The PA proposed trading for space in August. It would have been very limited.

It wasn't in their November proposal.

Bettman wasn't going for that. Its not in the NHL proposals.

RangerBoy is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:51 PM
  #491
Bleedred
Fire Dumbeor!
 
Bleedred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seminole Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 35,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltrangerfan View Post
To date: Fehr keeps receiving improved offers so he is improving the PA's position by waiting and not initiating.

If the season is cancelled or if the players pay too much for their ultimate return then Fehr might have erred?

As of now the owners seem to be pushing more for a settlement (Perhaps they need the season more or are covering their position for any possible lawsuits) so it's too early to judge the results.

Fehr is simply playing a calculated positions and negotiating the way he believes is best.
I think when it all comes down to it they're gonna have to sit, and make some tweaks. Kinda like they did in New York a few weeks ago when it really looked like progress was made.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nyr2k2 View Post
How is presenting a counteroffer not negotiating? And why must the players work off the owners' proposal?
What I'm saying is get in the room with each other. Read the proposals. Tell the owners what you like, and don't like. The best I've seen was the marathon sessions a few weeks ago. Not writing up a whole new counteroffer after a day. Get in the room, tell them the things you don't like, and that you'd like to bend on. As has already been said we know they've been stalling anyway. It's gonna come down to them having to do this though if they don't wanna cancel the season. I'm not quite sure what Fehr has planned though.

Bleedred is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:53 PM
  #492
NYR Viper
Moderator
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 28,987
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Inferno View Post
Nash and Gaborik are so different its ridiculous. Both bring different aspects to their team, both are effective.

Id rather make some cuts elsewhere than to lose Gabby.
If the cap is set at 60 million the Rangers will be quite a bit over that if they re-sign and keep all of their current players (Hagelin, Stepan, McDonagh, Sauer). The only real viable option would be to trade Gaborik. IMO that is the better route than trading Girardi or Staal although that may be an option they would have to look at after dealing Gaborik considering the raises some of these players would be looking at.

NYR Viper is online now  
Old
12-28-2012, 03:56 PM
  #493
BrooklynRangersFan
Change is good.
 
BrooklynRangersFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Brooklyn of course
Country: United States
Posts: 10,562
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RangerBoy View Post
The PA proposed trading for space in August. It would have been very limited.

It wasn't in their November proposal.

Bettman wasn't going for that. Its not in the NHL proposals.
Thanks, RB. Did sound too good to be true. You'd have all the bottom feeders at the floor and the Rangers, Leafs, etc. fielding rosters 20% over the cap.

BrooklynRangersFan is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 04:02 PM
  #494
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 12,198
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
If the cap is set at 60 million the Rangers will be quite a bit over that if they re-sign and keep all of their current players (Hagelin, Stepan, McDonagh, Sauer). The only real viable option would be to trade Gaborik. IMO that is the better route than trading Girardi or Staal although that may be an option they would have to look at after dealing Gaborik considering the raises some of these players would be looking at.
I like Marc Staal. In fact, I like him more than I like Gaborik. However, if I can get under the Cap and still retain McDonagh, Del Zotto and Gaborik, I think it's something you have to consider very very seriously.

Tawnos is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 04:03 PM
  #495
Bleedred
Fire Dumbeor!
 
Bleedred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seminole Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 35,219
vCash: 500
Shouldn't there be a rollback with the cap going down like that? Or is the buyout supposed to be the answer? I think they'll meet in the middle somewhere. Maybe a $63 million cap ceiling.

Bleedred is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 04:08 PM
  #496
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 10,742
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedred View Post
Shouldn't there be a rollback with the cap going down like that? Or is the buyout supposed to be the answer? I think they'll meet in the middle somewhere. Maybe a $63 million cap ceiling.
64 million would be enough to keep Gaborik

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 04:09 PM
  #497
BBKers
Registered User
 
BBKers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: South Koster, Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 5,824
vCash: 500
Send a message via Skype™ to BBKers
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
It is going to be extraordinarily difficult to get a nice package and clear significant cap space.
YES IT WILL

I ILLUSTRATE THIS HERE BELOW
THIS OF COURSE IS A HUGE THING FOR THE NHLPA LOOKING AT IT LIKE THIS - NO???

CONTRACTS, CAPHITS & SIGNED PLAYERS for THE 2013/2014 NHL SEASON

Montreal
$60,160,476 = -$160,476 in capspace
16 players signed - missing 7 players
Average caphit remaining players = 0
UFA (Armstrong, Nokelainen, Bouillon, Budaj)
RFA (Desharnais, White, Weber)
PK Subban still unsigned as RFA for the 2013 season
Bye Bye Scott Gomez

Tampa Bay
$57,534,416 = $2,465,584 in capspace
15 players signed - missing 8 players
Average caphit remaining players = $308,198
UFA (Crombeen, Thompson, Hall, Wyman, Bergeron, Garon)
RFA (Pouliot, Mikkelson)

Philadelphia
$57,473,095 = $2,526,905 in capspace
16 players signed - missing 7 players
Average caphit remaining players = $360,986
UFA (Fedotenko, Shelly, Timonen, Lilja, Leighton)
RFA (Wellwood, Rinaldo)
Pronger LTIR???

Boston
$57,351,310 = $2,648,690 in capspace
16 players signed - missing 7 players
Average caphit remaining players = $378,384
UFA (Horton, Ference, Johnson, Thomas, Khudobin)
RFA (Caron)

Chicago
$57,211,795 = $2,788,205 in capspace
17 players signed - missing 6 players
Average caphit remaining players = $464,701
UFA (Stalberg, Mayers, Bickell, Roszival, Emery)
RFA (Kruger, Leddy)

Vancouver
$55,403,333 =$4,596,667 in capspace
13 players signed - missing 10 players
Average caphit remaining players = $459,667
UFA (Malhotra, Mason, Higgins, Lapierre, Ebbett, Volpatti, Edler, Alberts )
RFA (Tanev, Weise)

San Jose
$54,339,167 = $5,660,833 in capspace
14 players signed - missing 9 players
Average caphit remaining players = $628,981
UFA (Clowe, Handzus, Murray, Greiss)
RFA (Galiardi, Desjardins, Demers)

Pittsburgh
$52,583,333 = $7,416,667 in capspace
15 players signed - missing 8 players
Average caphit = $927,083
UFA (Cooke, Dupuis, Adams, Lovejoy)
RFA (Kennedy, Tangradi, Jeffry, Strait)

New York Rangers
$51,841,667 = $8,158,333 in cap space
16 players signed - missing 7 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,165,476
UFA (Halpern, Eminger)
RFA (Stepan, Hagelin, McDonaugh, Sauer)
Michael del Zotto still unsigned as RFA for the 2013 season

Minnesota
$51,129,701 = $8,870,299 in capspace
16 players signed - missing 7 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,267,185
UFA (Bouchard, Cullen, Backstrom)
RFA (Clutterbuck, Scandella, Falk, Spurgeon)

Carolina
$50,737,500 = $9,262,500
15 players signed - missing 8 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,157,823
UFA (Semin, Larose, Stewart, Brent, Wallace, Corvo, Boucher)
RFA (Nodl)

Buffalo
$49,642,857 = $10,357,143 in capspace
14 players signed - missing 9 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,150,794
UFA (Scott, Ellis, Regehr, Leopold, Pardy, Sulzer)
RFA (Hodgson, Weber, Brennan, Enroth)

Los Angeles
$49,447,727 = $10,552,273 in capspace
13 players signed - missing 10 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,055,227
UFA (Gagne, Penner, Richardson, Scuderi, Drewskie)
RFA (Clifford, Lewis, Nolan, Voynov, Martinez, Bernier)

Colorado
$49,258,333 = $10,741,667 in capspace
19 players signed - missing 4 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,685,417
UFA (Hejduk, Kobasew, O´Byrne)
RFA (none)
Ryan O´Reilly still unsigned as RFA for the 2013 season

Edmonton
$48,450,000 = $11,550,000 in capspace
14 players signed - missing 9 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,283,333
UFA (Jones, Hordichuk, Petrell, Whitney, Smid, Sutton, Khabibulin)
RFA (Gagner, Hartikainen, Peckham)

Calgary
$47,870,833 = $12,129,167 in capspace
14 players signed - missing 9 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,347,685
UFA (Iginla, Cervenka, Comeau, Babchuk, Karlsson)
RFA (Backlund, Bouma, Butler, Brodie)

Nashville
$45,422,143 = $14,577,857 in capspace
13 players signed - missing 10 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,457,779
UFA (Yip, McGratton, Hannon, Mason)
RFA (Hornqvist, Spaling, Halsischuk, MacLellan, Josi)

Detroit
$45,146,212 = 14,853,788 in capspace
15 players signed - missing 8 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,856,724
UFA (Filppula, Cleary, Brunner, Miller, White, Howard)
RFA (Nyquist, Mursak, Kidl, Smith)

Washington
$44,805,128 = 15,194,872 in capspace
12 players signed - missing 11 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,381,352
UFA (Ribeiro, Crabb, Hendricks, Wolski, Hamrlik, Poti, Erskine, Hillen)
RFA (Johansson, Alzner, Neuvirth, Holtby)

Columbus
$42,850,476 = $17,149,524 in capspace
19 players signed - missing 8 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,143,691
UFA (Prospal, Aucoin, Letestu)
RFA (Anisimov, Atkinson, Gillies, Mason, Bobrovsky, Allen)

Florida
$41,888,708 = $18,111,292 in capspace
12 players signed - missing 11 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,646,481
UFA (Weiss, Smithson, Theodore)
RFA (Ellerby, Mueller, Santorelli, Maththias, Skille, Wellman)
Dmitry Kulikov still unsigned as RFA for the 2013 season

Toronto
$41,515,833 = $18,484,167 in capspace
12 players signed - missing 11 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,680,379
UFA (Connolly, Lupul, Lombardi, MacArthur, Bozak, Steckel)
RFA (Kadri, Gunnarsson, Holzer)
Cody Fransson still unsigned as RFA for 2013 season

Ottawa
$39,055,000 = $20,945,000 in capspace
13 players signed - missing 10 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,094,500
UFA (Alfredsson, Latendresse, Regin, Gonchar, Lundin)
RFA (Daugavins, Condra, Bishop)
Only 21 players signed for 2013 season

Dallas
$34,096,111 =$2,5903,889
14 players signed - missing 9 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,878,210
UFA (Jagr, Morrow, Roy, Ryder, Nystrom, Fistric)
RFA (Wandell, Vincour, Bell, Bachman)
Jamie Benn still unsigned as RFA for 2013 season

Winnipeg
$33,166,667 = $25,903,889 in capspace
9 players signed - missing 14 players
Average caphit remaining players = $1,916,667
UFA (Antropov, Ponikarovsky, Wellwood, Miettinen, Hainsey, Clitsome, Montoya)
RFA (Burmistrov, Cormier, Machacek, Bogosian, Postma)

Phoenix (should move to Gary, Indiana?)
$32,962,500 = $27,037,500 in capspace
10 players signed - missing 13 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,079,807
UFA (Sullivan, Torres, Gordon, Johnson, Chipchura, Smith, LaBarbera)
RFA (Ekman-Larsson, Stone, Summers, Schlemko)

Anaheim
$32,839,167 = $27,160,833 in capspace
12 players signed - missing 11 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,469,167
UFA (Getzlaf, Perry, Selanne, Koivu, Lydman, Guenin, D.-Deslauriers)
RFA (Palmieri, McMillan, Beleskey)

New Jersey
$32,362,500 = $27,637,500 in capspace
13 players signed - missing 10 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,763,750
UFA (Elias, Zajac, Zubrus, Clarkson, Janssen, Zidlicky, Harrold)
RFA (Josefson, Henrique)

St Louis
$32,133,333 = $27,866,667 in capspace
12 players signed - missing 11 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,533,333
UFA (McDonald, Langenbrunner, Nichol, Porter)
RFA (Stewart, Berglund, D´Agostini, Pietrangelo, Russell, Cole, Shattenkirk)

New York Islanders
$31,507,333 = $28,492,667 in capspace
12 players signed - missing 11 players
Average caphit remaining players = $2,590,242
UFA (Reasoner, Boyes, Boulton, Visnovsky, Streit, Nabokov)
RFA (Bailey, Joensuu, Hamonic, Wishart)

TOTAL # of PLAYERS SIGNED for 2013/2014 = 411
TOTAL # PLAYERS REMAINING without contract = 273
UFAs after 2013/2014 = 158
RFAs after 2013/2014 = 109
UNSIGNED RFAs for 2013 = 6

TOTAL POSSIBLE SALARY - $1,800,000,000
TOTAL SALARY SIGNED - $1,319,208,170
TOTAL SALARY REMAINNG (THEORETICAL) - $480,791,830


Average salary of signed players after 2013/2014 - $3,209,752

Average salary for the NHL in 2013/2014 (if all teams go to the capmax - which they of course will not) - $2,608,695

Maximum signing amount for the 2013/2014 contracts (if all teams were spend to the capmax - which they of course will not) = $1,761,142

This explains a lot imo...
Especially players stance in wanting transition cap to stay as high as possible. Will not be possible to manage otherwise


Last edited by BBKers: 12-28-2012 at 04:16 PM.
BBKers is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 04:11 PM
  #498
Bleedred
Fire Dumbeor!
 
Bleedred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seminole Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 35,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
64 million would be enough to keep Gaborik
If not send him the Devils way!

Just kidding we likely won't have enough to take him on either. I'm interested in what someone like Malkin comes out with in a low salary cap.

Bleedred is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 04:11 PM
  #499
broadwayblue
Registered User
 
broadwayblue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: NYC
Country: United States
Posts: 15,770
vCash: 500
Why can't they just keep the cap where it is and not increase it until the owners are made whole on the 50-50 revenue split?

broadwayblue is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 04:13 PM
  #500
Bleedred
Fire Dumbeor!
 
Bleedred's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Seminole Florida
Country: United States
Posts: 35,219
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by broadwayblue View Post
Why can't they just keep the cap where it is and not increase it until the owners are made whole on the 50-50 revenue split?
I'd like them just to keep it where it was last year. Even if it means not letting it go up by much for a little while.

Bleedred is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:37 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.