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Old
12-27-2012, 04:57 PM
  #176
Confucius
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nonsense.

Detroit fans loved their Toronto rivalry, but we had to give that up.
If Philly still had Pittsburgh, they could live without the Rangers.

You can't tailor-make the league for everyone.
More like they loved the easy points......

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12-27-2012, 05:07 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
More like they loved the easy points......
Back in those days, the Leafs weren't so bad, and the Wings were just starting to come into their good Seasons.

1991-92 Season, for example...
Toronto:
5 Oct W Detroit 8- 5
25 Oct L at Detroit 0- 4
26 Oct W Detroit 6- 1
28 Dec L Detroit 4- 5
3 Jan L at Detroit 4- 6
7 Feb W at Detroit 4- 3
11 Feb W Detroit 4- 3
20 Feb L at Detroit 2- 3

Fairly evenly split if you ask me.

93-94
Toronto:
15 Oct W Detroit 6- 3
16 Oct W at Detroit 2- 1
4 Nov T at Detroit 3- 3
5 Feb L Detroit 3- 4
15 Feb W Detroit 5- 4
4 Mar W at Detroit 6- 5

Toronto won that Season series.

Just two examples.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-27-2012 at 05:19 PM.
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12-27-2012, 05:12 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Back in those days, the Leafs weren't so bad, and the Wings were just starting to come into their good Seasons.
Depends on the year.

The Leafs were awful in the 1980's. Fortunately, the Wings were too.

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Old
12-27-2012, 05:16 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Nonsense.

Detroit fans loved their Toronto rivalry, but we had to give that up.
If Philly still had Pittsburgh, they could live without the Rangers.

You can't tailor-make the league for everyone.
Just go back to 1998 then.

NYR, Phi, NJ, Fla, Was, TB, NYI
Pit, Bos, Ott, Buf, Car, Mtl, Clb
StL, Nas, Det, Chi, Dal, Wpg, Min, Tor
Van, Phx, SJ, LA, Cal, Col, Ana, Edm

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12-27-2012, 06:00 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Back in those days, the Leafs weren't so bad, and the Wings were just starting to come into their good Seasons.

1991-92 Season, for example...
Toronto:
5 Oct W Detroit 8- 5
25 Oct L at Detroit 0- 4
26 Oct W Detroit 6- 1
28 Dec L Detroit 4- 5
3 Jan L at Detroit 4- 6
7 Feb W at Detroit 4- 3
11 Feb W Detroit 4- 3
20 Feb L at Detroit 2- 3

Fairly evenly split if you ask me.

93-94
Toronto:
15 Oct W Detroit 6- 3
16 Oct W at Detroit 2- 1
4 Nov T at Detroit 3- 3
5 Feb L Detroit 3- 4
15 Feb W Detroit 5- 4
4 Mar W at Detroit 6- 5

Toronto won that Season series.

Just two examples.
Thanx, no wonder they hate me on the Leaf board. I'm too critical and don't wear blue and white goggles. But they are my team

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12-27-2012, 06:10 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Stix and Stones View Post
Thanx, no wonder they hate me on the Leaf board. I'm too critical and don't wear blue and white goggles. But they are my team
In fact, in the mid-90s, I think Detroit-Toronto-St Louis had one of the best 3-way rivalries going at that time.

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Old
12-27-2012, 06:37 PM
  #182
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If I recall correctly, the Toronto v Detroit alltime W/L column is .500, or maybe TO has a one game lead now.

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12-27-2012, 11:11 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
What's up with you two? I've been arguing and debating with both of you for weeks, and now suddenly on the topic of alignment we have areas of agreement.
I never liked Toronto in the east, it put Detroit on an island.

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12-27-2012, 11:14 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Aww, hold on there...
Columbus to Pittsburgh = 260km
Columbus to Detroit = 264km
Philadelphia to Hartford = 290km

And a couple more of related reference:
Pittsburgh to Buffalo = 290km
Pittsburgh to Philadelphia = 408km
Philadelphia to Washington = 193km
Kinda establishes my point anyway. Detroit and Pittsburgh have about as much to do with the Columbus market as the Flyers have to Hartford.

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12-27-2012, 11:18 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
I never liked Toronto in the east, it put Detroit on an island.
Hey, I think the same way. I've even proposed that if 1 or 2 ETZ teams need to be in the "West" then there should really be a whole ETZ Division in the West (sort of a western east), with a few CTZ teams going in the "East" to sort of give a token balance of Time Zone spread between the 2 Conferences. Also, a geographically compact ETZ Division in the West would in fact slightly reduce overall travel there (though not TZ differences, of course, but at least give some fairness to whatever ETZ teams have to be there anyway).

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12-27-2012, 11:23 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Kinda establishes my point anyway. Detroit and Pittsburgh have about as much to do with the Columbus market as the Flyers have to Hartford.
No, there's still a significant difference. Between Philadelphia and Hartford there's a whole megalopolis of cities and urban areas. Whereas between Columbus and Pittsburgh there's essentially none of that. Between Columbus and Detroit there's a bit but still not much.

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12-28-2012, 10:16 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
Hey, I think the same way. I've even proposed that if 1 or 2 ETZ teams need to be in the "West" then there should really be a whole ETZ Division in the West (sort of a western east), with a few CTZ teams going in the "East" to sort of give a token balance of Time Zone spread between the 2 Conferences. Also, a geographically compact ETZ Division in the West would in fact slightly reduce overall travel there (though not TZ differences, of course, but at least give some fairness to whatever ETZ teams have to be there anyway).
I agree completely. even without that. Detroit - Toronto - Chicago - Minneapolis makes more sense. Then you have Dallas as well and you can rival any east coast division plus NBC would actually show more non NY games(although that does not bother me.)

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12-28-2012, 10:18 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
No, there's still a significant difference. Between Philadelphia and Hartford there's a whole megalopolis of cities and urban areas. Whereas between Columbus and Pittsburgh there's essentially none of that. Between Columbus and Detroit there's a bit but still not much.
I think you're overselling that a bit. Don't forget that Cincinatti and Cleveland are inside Columbus' territory. The Indians get less territorial concession than that since they're competing with the Reds, and they did fine for decades before mismanagement pushed the team back into the doldrums.

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12-28-2012, 10:20 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
Just go back to 1998 then.

NYR, Phi, NJ, Fla, Was, TB, NYI
Pit, Bos, Ott, Buf, Car, Mtl, Clb
StL, Nas, Det, Chi, Dal, Wpg, Min, Tor
Van, Phx, SJ, LA, Cal, Col, Ana, Edm
This works for me.

6 divisions is played out. And this limits travel. Expand to Seattle and Houston and there you go. Then Add quebec and Atlanta*. 34 teams and everyone is happy

*we have to go back there and Houston.

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12-28-2012, 10:33 AM
  #190
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I agree that we need a presence in Atlanta. I don't expect that team to prosper, but it's still necessary to have a presence in that market, it's the media cornerstone of the entire region and if you want hockey to be relevant south of DC and east of Dallas, you at least need the occasional hockey on TV in Atlanta.

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12-28-2012, 10:47 AM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
I think you're overselling that a bit. Don't forget that Cincinatti and Cleveland are inside Columbus' territory. The Indians get less territorial concession than that since they're competing with the Reds, and they did fine for decades before mismanagement pushed the team back into the doldrums.
What does any of that have to do with a Columbus - Pittsburgh connection, something upon which a potential rivalry could be built, even if only locally small until hopefully Columbus gets a competitive team on the ice. And the comparison was made with Philadelphia and Hartford, as if there could be equal (non-)connection between Columbus and Pittsburgh as there would be between Philadelphia and Hartford, which is nonsense.

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12-28-2012, 11:11 AM
  #192
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You're talking about large metropolitan areas, I may have misinterpreted what you meant.

Frankly, the problem Hartford is going to have involves carving out an actual territory for itself. Columbus doesn't have that problem. They have Ohio to draw on if they get good, and that can give them *something* even when they aren't.

Hartford by contrast doesn't even really have Connecticut, since that's always been the borderland between New york and New England in terms of fanbase. They'd pick up a few die-hards who remembered the Whalers, but they'd have an awful time growing much beyond that.

In that context, what I was pointing out is that the difference between Detroit and Pittsburgh being hundreds of miles away, and Boston and New York each being less than 100 miles out, is pretty freaking significant. We're talking about rich, well-established teams that frequently compete for championships and can put on a much higher quality of hockey than anything an expansion team in Connecticut could do. A Connecticut fan who wants to watch top flight NHL caliber hockey has options a reasonable drive away and mass transit between Hartford and both Boston and NY is IIRC pretty well connected. So where's the core territory to draw on? Where's the guaranteed market?

Halifax is a better market in that respect than Hartford.


Last edited by Dojji*: 12-28-2012 at 11:16 AM. Reason: correcting some really freaking stupid spelling mistakes.
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12-28-2012, 11:24 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
You're talking about large metropolitan areas, I may have interpreted what you meant.

Frankly, the problem Hartford is going to have involves carving out an actual territory for itself. Columbus doesn't have that problem. They have Ohio to draw on if they get good, and that can give them *something* even when they aren't.

Hartford by contrast doesn't even really have Connecticut, since that's always been the borderland between New york and New England in terms of fanbase. They'd pick up a few die-hards who remembered the Whalers, but they'd have an awful time growing much beyond that.

In that context, what I was pointing out is that the difference between Detroit and Pittsburgh being hundreds of miles away, and Boston and New York each being less than 100 miles out, is pretty freaking significant. A Connecticut fan who wants hockey has options a reasonable drive away and mass transit between Hartford and both Boston and NY is IIRC pretty well connected. So where's the core territory to draw on? Where's the guaranteed market?

Halifax is a better market in that respect than Hartford.
Well fine, Hartford to Boston or New York is a shorter commute, I'll give you that. But the connection between Columbus with Pittsburgh or Detroit was being compared to Philadelphia with Hartford. The distance between Columbus and Pittsburgh may well be enough to make any kind of regular commute between the two impractical; but they are still fairly close with no intervening cities between them. Fans in Philadelphia can consider the next city (or NHL city) across the way, whether it be Newark-New York or Washington and say, 'those guys are or can be our rivals' (whereas Hartford would be on the other side, even two states removed). Columbus and Pittsburgh are each other's closest with no other between them.

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12-28-2012, 12:22 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
This works for me.

6 divisions is played out. And this limits travel. Expand to Seattle and Houston and there you go. Then Add quebec and Atlanta*. 34 teams and everyone is happy

*we have to go back there and Houston.
I don't know if 6 divisions are played out, but it's certainly difficult to make them work in the west. Not enough teams, too many borders, too many time zones.

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12-28-2012, 01:57 PM
  #195
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If the ownership situation for the Atlanta team had continued to be what it started as, there would never have been a major problem and the team would still be in town. The NHL didn't know Time Warner was going to implode with that whole AOL Time Warner nonsense and effectively destroy Turner Sports. If Turner Sports still owned the Braves, Hawks, and operating rights for Philips Arena, the Thrashers would still be in the league. A truly objective person can't fault the NHL for going in with Turner Sports.

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12-28-2012, 02:28 PM
  #196
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Any idiot can tell you Atlanta and a team in Ohio wouldn't work out in the NHL.

Minnesota now has a fighting chance but didn't build properly whatsoever. Their best player is a goalie. Seriously? Martin Brodeur has had talent around him, look at a guy like Ryan Miller as an example. Miller is easily the best player on that team and the Sabres are one of the worst teams currently in the NHL. Florida could honestly beat them.

Teams like Seattle and Winnipeg are no brainers. Look at the NFL Seahawks now, the hardest to play in stadium in the league. I bet the NHL feels silly now.

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12-28-2012, 02:40 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by KingsFan7824 View Post
I don't know if 6 divisions are played out, but it's certainly difficult to make them work in the west. Not enough teams, too many borders, too many time zones.
Of course. Things like dallas in the southwest are abomination

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12-28-2012, 02:42 PM
  #198
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Originally Posted by Tekneek View Post
If the ownership situation for the Atlanta team had continued to be what it started as, there would never have been a major problem and the team would still be in town. The NHL didn't know Time Warner was going to implode with that whole AOL Time Warner nonsense and effectively destroy Turner Sports. If Turner Sports still owned the Braves, Hawks, and operating rights for Philips Arena, the Thrashers would still be in the league. A truly objective person can't fault the NHL for going in with Turner Sports.
Easy in hindsight to say the merger was wrong. AOL was on the rise.

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12-28-2012, 02:50 PM
  #199
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Any idiot can tell you Atlanta and a team in Ohio wouldn't work out in the NHL.

Minnesota now has a fighting chance but didn't build properly whatsoever. Their best player is a goalie. Seriously? Martin Brodeur has had talent around him, look at a guy like Ryan Miller as an example. Miller is easily the best player on that team and the Sabres are one of the worst teams currently in the NHL. Florida could honestly beat them.

Teams like Seattle and Winnipeg are no brainers. Look at the NFL Seahawks now, the hardest to play in stadium in the league. I bet the NHL feels silly now.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about?

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12-28-2012, 02:51 PM
  #200
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Any idiot can tell you Atlanta ... wouldn't work out in the NHL.
Utter nonsense. A city of 5,000,000+, the majority of whom are northerners who moved south and have a passion for hockey. The second largest independent adult amateur hockey league in the entire country. I echo what was said earlier, had AOL-TW not flamed out, Atlanta would have been a fully viable and financially successful NHL market.

The NHL did nothing for many years as the ASG did everything in its power to sabotage the market, solely to accomplish their initial goal of running only the NBA team and arena. If hockey had to die here in order to achieve that end, then so be it, they said.

http://www.ajc.com/news/sports/atlan...-rinks-/nQk3Z/

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