HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

If the NHL comes back, there has to be a big expansion.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-28-2012, 06:22 PM
  #1
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,108
vCash: 500
If the NHL comes back, there has to be a big expansion.

This will be the only way to make the media forget the lockout. It gives the appearance of growth and of course introduce new people into the game. Besides we can't turn back now and if the players lose this would be nice compensation. I don't want to do this but it's beyond obviously

I think we need to go to 36

Quebec City
Atlanta*
Houston
Seattle
San Antonio**
Hamilton, ON


* We need to go back to Atlanta. It's the capital of the south. Enough said.

** San Antonio is a fast growing city in the southwest with money and can bring in the parts of the southwest

Houston is self explanatory.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:25 PM
  #2
ClevelandJacketFan
Awesome Mascots!
 
ClevelandJacketFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: ...Really?
Country: United States
Posts: 3,195
vCash: 500
Not sure the whole "Needless expansion" strategy is a good way to cover up a heartbreaking, fandom shattering lockout.

ClevelandJacketFan is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:31 PM
  #3
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,340
vCash: 500
I see 2 teams in the very near future to have 4 8-team divisions

1. Quebec
2. Markham


If we add 4 more
Seattle
Hamilton
Hartford
Salt Lake City

RedWingsNow* is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:36 PM
  #4
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 13,586
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
This will be the only way to make the media forget the lockout. It gives the appearance of growth and of course introduce new people into the game. Besides we can't turn back now and if the players lose this would be nice compensation. I don't want to do this but it's beyond obviously

I think we need to go to 36

Quebec City
Atlanta*
Houston
Seattle
San Antonio**
Hamilton, ON


* We need to go back to Atlanta. It's the capital of the south. Enough said.

** San Antonio is a fast growing city in the southwest with money and can bring in the parts of the southwest

Houston is self explanatory.
Although I'm as big of a proponent of expansion as you'll find, I disagree strongly with the idea of going with a "big expansion". A two-team expansion would reflect and further fuel the growth of the game, but a four-team (or more) expansion would give the appearance of desperation.

And although I agree with Atlanta, and believe that there should be a team in Atlanta at the earliest possible time, there is no way it can take place as long as ASG is collectively alive and not being publicly scourged and then crammed into the brazen bull.

(Look up the brazen bull if you so desire)

Mayor Bee is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:38 PM
  #5
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
This will be the only way to make the media forget the lockout. It gives the appearance of growth and of course introduce new people into the game. Besides we can't turn back now and if the players lose this would be nice compensation. I don't want to do this but it's beyond obviously

I think we need to go to 36

Quebec City
Atlanta*
Houston
Seattle
San Antonio**
Hamilton, ON


* We need to go back to Atlanta. It's the capital of the south. Enough said.

** San Antonio is a fast growing city in the southwest with money and can bring in the parts of the southwest

Houston is self explanatory.
Where do you propose the NHL plays in at seeing as the only reasonable venue is owned and managed by the same group who could not wash their hands of the thrash fast enough?

The NHL needs Atlanta only in so much as they are willing to pursue the fools errand of the national (us) TV contract. We've been down this road before, the plan of shoring up the current weak sisters by bringing in even weaker sisters does not do anything to strengthen the teams currently struggling.

sandysan is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:45 PM
  #6
EmersonBeatemEtem
Registered User
 
EmersonBeatemEtem's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Hollywood, FL
Country: United States
Posts: 558
vCash: 500
36 is too many. However 32 would be a nice ideal round number for the league to operate with. Its worked out for the NFL pretty well with 8 divisions of 4 teams each.

In terms of potential expansion candidates, as much as I'd like to see a team back in Atlanta, it doesn't seem like it will happen any time in foreseeable future. ASG essentially kicked the Thrashers out of their arena. No local ownership group would touch them with a 10 foot pole knowing they would never get a fair lease there. Until there are separate arenas (one for the Hawks and one for a potential hockey team) or ASG is out of the picture altogether, Atlanta will not be on the list for relocation or expansion.

EmersonBeatemEtem is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:47 PM
  #7
pondnorth
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 1,113
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
This will be the only way to make the media forget the lockout. It gives the appearance of growth and of course introduce new people into the game. Besides we can't turn back now and if the players lose this would be nice compensation. I don't want to do this but it's beyond obviously

I think we need to go to 36

Quebec City
Atlanta*
Houston
Seattle
San Antonio**
Hamilton, ON


* We need to go back to Atlanta. It's the capital of the south. Enough said.

** San Antonio is a fast growing city in the southwest with money and can bring in the parts of the southwest

Houston is self explanatory.
This whole idea at this point in time makes no sense

pondnorth is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:50 PM
  #8
NugentHopkinsfan
Registered User
 
NugentHopkinsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 8,986
vCash: 500
Better lower ticket prices because the product will be even worse than it already is.

Welcome 6 new trapping teams that have no talent and just clog up the neutral zone. Look at the way the Wild and Preds had to play early on and look at how awful Atlanta and Columbus were/are...

Expansion is awful for the quality of hockey. But i guess some people don't care about that, they'll watch whatever boring garbage the NHL gives them. But only a select few are like that because the ratings say the product isn't very good to begin with, I guess the solution is to make it worse not better.

NugentHopkinsfan is online now  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:53 PM
  #9
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 3,621
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
This will be the only way to make the media forget the lockout. It gives the appearance of growth and of course introduce new people into the game. Besides we can't turn back now and if the players lose this would be nice compensation. I don't want to do this but it's beyond obviously

I think we need to go to 36

Quebec City
Atlanta*
Houston
Seattle
San Antonio**
Hamilton, ON


* We need to go back to Atlanta. It's the capital of the south. Enough said.

** San Antonio is a fast growing city in the southwest with money and can bring in the parts of the southwest

Houston is self explanatory.
Where do you propose the NHL plays in at seeing as the only reasonable venue is owned and managed by the same group who could not wash their hands of the thrash fast enough?

The NHL needs Atlanta only in so much as they are willing to pursue the fools errand of the national (us) TV contract. We've been down this road before, the plan of shoring up the current weak sisters by bringing in even weaker sisters does not do anything to strengthen the teams currently struggling.

sandysan is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:57 PM
  #10
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
This will be the only way to make the media forget the lockout. It gives the appearance of growth and of course introduce new people into the game. Besides we can't turn back now and if the players lose this would be nice compensation. I don't want to do this but it's beyond obviously

I think we need to go to 36

Quebec City
Atlanta*
Houston
Seattle
San Antonio**
Hamilton, ON


* We need to go back to Atlanta. It's the capital of the south. Enough said.

** San Antonio is a fast growing city in the southwest with money and can bring in the parts of the southwest

Houston is self explanatory.
Haha, I like it...... I like it a lot! Losing the Atlanta tv market was a bad move for the NHL and I would love to see a team go back. Of course none of this is very realistic but I like where your head is at.

du5566* is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 06:59 PM
  #11
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 107,620
vCash: 6115
"Appearance of Growth"


People aren't that stupid, man.

GKJ is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:00 PM
  #12
du5566*
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Boston
Country: United States
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
"Appearance of Growth"


People aren't that stupid, man.
Haha, I think you are overestimating "people”.

du5566* is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:03 PM
  #13
JGalt
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Huntingdon Vlly, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,643
vCash: 500
I'm all for going to 32 teams. 36 is silly.

JGalt is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:04 PM
  #14
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 13,586
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
Better lower ticket prices because the product will be even worse than it already is.

Welcome 6 new trapping teams that have no talent and just clog up the neutral zone. Look at the way the Wild and Preds had to play early on and look at how awful Atlanta and Columbus were/are...

Expansion is awful for the quality of hockey. But i guess some people don't care about that, they'll watch whatever boring garbage the NHL gives them. But only a select few are like that because the ratings say the product isn't very good to begin with, I guess the solution is to make it worse not better.
Actually, expansion causes an increase in scoring across the league.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=174


Last edited by Mayor Bee: 12-28-2012 at 07:10 PM.
Mayor Bee is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:07 PM
  #15
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 107,620
vCash: 6115
Quote:
Originally Posted by du5566 View Post
Haha, I think you are overestimating "people”.
Well, I mean, more people express their views. Not all of those are intelligent. Some are if you can find them, and they make good cases for relocation/expansion. I think there's enough reasonable people on social media (if you find them) that wouldn't be fooled. 9 teams in 15 years wasn't a good idea, and it was almost entirely because the NHL didn't do their due diligence. The circus in Phoenix today is a direct result of how they ended up with a team in the first place.

You gotta have owners for these teams, too. The NHL has proven that they have enough trouble juggling 30. The viability of the markets will always be a debate, but the league needs to get to 30 healthy teams before expansion gets real (which as long as Phoenix is around, it will never happen).

GKJ is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:07 PM
  #16
NugentHopkinsfan
Registered User
 
NugentHopkinsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 8,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Actually, expansion causes an increase in scoring across the league.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=174
I don't care about scoring. There's worse goalies, worse defensemen, less complete players because there are more teams and more spots open. If you think it's fun to watch 2003 Wild hockey have fun with the other 20 people who like to watch that crap.

There are maybe 5-8 teams in the NHL I find entertaining. Adding 6 more just means more games I won't be able to sit through.

NugentHopkinsfan is online now  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:11 PM
  #17
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 13,586
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I don't care about scoring. There's worse goalies, worse defensemen, less complete players because there are more teams and more spots open. If you think it's fun to watch 2003 Wild hockey have fun with the other 20 people who like to watch that crap.

There are maybe 5-8 teams in the NHL I find entertaining. Adding 6 more just means more games I won't be able to sit through.
What expansion does is bring different types of players into the league, or put players on the way out into positions where they can succeed. Geoff Sanderson was someone who was rendered completely useless by the dead puck era; Columbus picked him up in the expansion draft, and his goal output that year exceeded the previous three years combined.

In a more condensed league (in number of teams), versatility becomes vital. What we're left with is a mess of players who can't do anything at a superlative level, but a lot of things at an average level. Remember those giants who were drafted in the late-90s who embodied this...Mike Rupp was a high first-round pick, and Rico Fata was as well because the breakaway threat was being phased out of the game and his speed would (in theory) change that. Michael Henrich, Eric Chouinard, Mathieu Biron...that's where the game was headed.

Mayor Bee is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:11 PM
  #18
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 107,620
vCash: 6115
Actually, I think goaltending would be fine. There doesn't seem to be enough seats at the table for starting goaltenders. For skaters, I'm not convinced the talent pool is deep enough for it.


As for expansion itself, I'd be fascinated by the process in the social media age. No one has done it yet, and only the return of the Jets has happened with relocation in the height of social media. But that doesn't mean they should do it.

GKJ is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:13 PM
  #19
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
Better lower ticket prices because the product will be even worse than it already is.

Welcome 6 new trapping teams that have no talent and just clog up the neutral zone. Look at the way the Wild and Preds had to play early on and look at how awful Atlanta and Columbus were/are...

Expansion is awful for the quality of hockey. But i guess some people don't care about that, they'll watch whatever boring garbage the NHL gives them. But only a select few are like that because the ratings say the product isn't very good to begin with, I guess the solution is to make it worse not better.
I know and I hear 100% percent. But we here in this hole. The league won't go back because of appearance. The next lockout the NHL will implode so let them complete the strategy. At least we can say we told you so. I'm just saying if that's the case then let's get it over with

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:16 PM
  #20
Melrose Munch
Registered User
 
Melrose Munch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 14,108
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
Actually, expansion causes an increase in scoring across the league.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=174
It does both. Some will trap and some are just awful.

Melrose Munch is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:24 PM
  #21
NugentHopkinsfan
Registered User
 
NugentHopkinsfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 8,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Actually, I think goaltending would be fine. There doesn't seem to be enough seats at the table for starting goaltenders. For skaters, I'm not convinced the talent pool is deep enough for it.


As for expansion itself, I'd be fascinated by the process in the social media age. No one has done it yet, and only the return of the Jets has happened with relocation in the height of social media. But that doesn't mean they should do it.
There are some teams with awful goaltending right now. Moving 6 back-ups into starting roles will be awful. 6 more teams will have to suffer like Leafs fans have the last 5 years.


Having more teams and spots doesn't mean there are more ''good'' players it just means the standards for NHL players drop, leading to a diluted talent pool, empty arenas, poor tv ratings, and no positive impact at all. What has Columbus done for the NHL? land a big tv deal? LOL no, improve the quality of hockey? nope complete opposite. As a fan I see no positives coming from expansion.

NugentHopkinsfan is online now  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:30 PM
  #22
Luck 6
\\_______
 
Luck 6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Vancouver
Posts: 7,040
vCash: 500
I'm against expansion, I don't want to weaken the talent pool further. As it stands right now, many teams don't even have a star player. It really lowers the quality of the game if we spread out the talent between additional teams. Wait for the game to grow before expanding, we aren't ready yet. Hockey isn't as big as football, and it's a totally different sport.

Luck 6 is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:32 PM
  #23
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Do not trade plz
Country: United States
Posts: 107,620
vCash: 6115
Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
There are some teams with awful goaltending right now. Moving 6 back-ups into starting roles will be awful. 6 more teams will have to suffer like Leafs fans have the last 5 years.
It depends who they are. Cory Schneider should have been a starter 2 years ago, and Jonathan Bernier should be getting an opportunity at the very least.

And look at the numbers today compared to years ago. Patrick Roy's save percentage from his time in Montreal would be replacement-level today, including the 2 years he won the Cup where he was under .900.

GKJ is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:36 PM
  #24
Mightygoose
Registered User
 
Mightygoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Ajax, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,153
vCash: 514
I can see 32 down the road. The proposed realignment just screams it. Once a couple uncertain franchises are settled 1) Coyotes (ownership) and Oilers (arena) then IMO they can move forward by 2.

36 at this time would be overkill.

Mightygoose is offline  
Old
12-28-2012, 07:39 PM
  #25
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 13,586
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
There are some teams with awful goaltending right now. Moving 6 back-ups into starting roles will be awful. 6 more teams will have to suffer like Leafs fans have the last 5 years.


Having more teams and spots doesn't mean there are more ''good'' players it just means the standards for NHL players drop, leading to a diluted talent pool, empty arenas, poor tv ratings, and no positive impact at all. What has Columbus done for the NHL? land a big tv deal? LOL no, improve the quality of hockey? nope complete opposite. As a fan I see no positives coming from expansion.
Hook, line, and sinker on what "conventional logic" dictates in regards to expansion.

Where you make completely erroneous assumptions is that NHL players are not shaped in the slightest by time and circumstance. And, with this established, the idea that there are a certain number of players who exist merely as letter grades, and that a larger number of roster spots means that a group of F-level players will fill those spots. And then you just kind of keep going off the deep end.

In any pro sports league, there are a very small number of A-level players who will be All-Stars regardless of their circumstances. There are a very small number who will be an abomination no matter what. Everyone else is in between, and is shaped by their circumstances.

Let's take a look at Nashville's (first-year team. Those aren't F-level players, those are a lot of B- and C-level guys, with a handful of AHL-level guys thrown in.

But I want to focus on one guy in particular, and that's the guy in goal. Tomas Vokoun was drafted by Montreal (1994) when Patrick Roy was still in net. Roy, of course, was traded in 1995 in a deal that landed Jocelyn Thibault. Jose Theodore had already been drafted (also 1994), so Montreal had three young goalies who were all a year apart. Thibault had NHL experience, Theodore was burning through the Q, and Vokoun was struggling. And when Vokoun got one shot, he was terrible. Montreal could have used him as the backup in 1997-98, but went with a 37-year-old Andy Moog instead.

So in 1998, expansion hits. Montreal leaves Vokoun and his lifetime 12.00 GAA and .714 save percentage unprotected. Nashville claimed him, and given an opportunity...he actually looked good. In fact, he became one of the best goalies in the league. If not for expansion, he doesn't get that chance, and he probably goes back overseas and is never seen again.

Undoubtedly there were people who laughed at Vokoun being picked up in the expansion draft, figuring he was never going to amount to anything. And yet...look what happened. He's still here. All he needed was a chance. There are a lot of guys in this position. It's not just a bunch of random depth guys who will never amount to anything, it's guys like Vokoun.

Mayor Bee is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:00 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.