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If the NHL comes back, there has to be a big expansion.

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Old
12-28-2012, 08:42 PM
  #26
Ernie
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Yes, let's add more bottom feeders, that's just what the league needs.

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12-28-2012, 08:45 PM
  #27
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Houston should have a franchise for sure. Atlanta is a major city, and it would be nice to have it in the NHL again. There is no reason to be at more than 32 teams, honestly.

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12-28-2012, 08:47 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Yes, let's add more bottom feeders, that's just what the league needs.
Listen man, the NHL is not turning back. It's sad. But let them go all out.

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12-28-2012, 08:49 PM
  #29
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And yes we need 36. The NHL needs to be as visible as possible if it is to chase a TV contract.

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12-28-2012, 09:01 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Ernie View Post
Yes, let's add more bottom feeders, that's just what the league needs.
Even with 10 teams, there will always be bottom feeders. Go to 36 now, kill off the KHL, go from there. Thinking that there is not enough talent globally to fill 36 teams is ridiculous.

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12-28-2012, 09:34 PM
  #31
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The best way to resolve issues like watered down product and failing markets is water the product down even further and add as many failing franchises as possible.

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:05 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
This will be the only way to make the media forget the lockout. It gives the appearance of growth and of course introduce new people into the game. Besides we can't turn back now and if the players lose this would be nice compensation. I don't want to do this but it's beyond obviously

I think we need to go to 36

Quebec City
Atlanta*
Houston
Seattle
San Antonio**
Hamilton, ON


* We need to go back to Atlanta. It's the capital of the south. Enough said.

** San Antonio is a fast growing city in the southwest with money and can bring in the parts of the southwest

Houston is self explanatory.
I can't believe this post, this thread, coming from Melrose. I'd almost say he must be trolling, but I won't go that far.

Don't believe at all that there needs to be a "big expansion" or any expansion at all. That said, there probably will be a "regular" expansion sometime around 2015... But we've already discussed that to death.

And that said... I'm all for 36 teams. Bring them on! But I hope the League stops there. 36 by 2022.

36, 1/4 Canadian, still only means 27 US-based teams. Soon all the other major Leagues will likely have at least 31 US-based franchises.


Last edited by MoreOrr: 12-28-2012 at 10:12 PM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 10:21 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
And yes we need 36. The NHL needs to be as visible as possible if it is to chase a TV contract.
Sorry dude but the less teams the better for the NHL. 30 is already too much in my opinion. More teams = less stacked teams = less excitement

When you build more teams you're going to start spreading these players and superstars out. If there were 36 teams, you wouldn't see the places like Washington have Backstrom and Ovechkin. You wouldn't see the places like Pittsburgh have Crosby, Malkin, and Neal.

If you did, it would turn NBA on you and the other teams would be decimated. There are already not enough talent to go around on these teams. Columbus has virtually no one.

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12-28-2012, 10:34 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Melrose Munch View Post
And yes we need 36. The NHL needs to be as visible as possible if it is to chase a TV contract.
One, the NHL doesn't need 36 nor is it capable in terms of markets of going there. Secondly, they just signed a TV deal. That isn't expiring anytime soon so that's not even relevant to right now. If they expand, it will be two teams but they also have to prepare for a likely relocation with the Coyotes. Right now, they have two markets that are qualified in Seattle and Quebec City. Houston needs an owner or it would be. Markham and Hamilton won't happen with Toronto. Atlanta isn't happening with ASG still running Philips Arena. There's just not enough markets with owners and venues to make that jump.

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12-28-2012, 10:36 PM
  #35
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Ok... so who's paying for these new franchises?

It's a different story if there's 30 healthy teams. But right now there's a ton of teams losing money as it is.

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12-28-2012, 10:48 PM
  #36
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Hook, line, and sinker on what "conventional logic" dictates in regards to expansion.

Where you make completely erroneous assumptions is that NHL players are not shaped in the slightest by time and circumstance. And, with this established, the idea that there are a certain number of players who exist merely as letter grades, and that a larger number of roster spots means that a group of F-level players will fill those spots. And then you just kind of keep going off the deep end.

In any pro sports league, there are a very small number of A-level players who will be All-Stars regardless of their circumstances. There are a very small number who will be an abomination no matter what. Everyone else is in between, and is shaped by their circumstances.

Let's take a look at Nashville's (first-year team. Those aren't F-level players, those are a lot of B- and C-level guys, with a handful of AHL-level guys thrown in.

But I want to focus on one guy in particular, and that's the guy in goal. Tomas Vokoun was drafted by Montreal (1994) when Patrick Roy was still in net. Roy, of course, was traded in 1995 in a deal that landed Jocelyn Thibault. Jose Theodore had already been drafted (also 1994), so Montreal had three young goalies who were all a year apart. Thibault had NHL experience, Theodore was burning through the Q, and Vokoun was struggling. And when Vokoun got one shot, he was terrible. Montreal could have used him as the backup in 1997-98, but went with a 37-year-old Andy Moog instead.

So in 1998, expansion hits. Montreal leaves Vokoun and his lifetime 12.00 GAA and .714 save percentage unprotected. Nashville claimed him, and given an opportunity...he actually looked good. In fact, he became one of the best goalies in the league. If not for expansion, he doesn't get that chance, and he probably goes back overseas and is never seen again.

Undoubtedly there were people who laughed at Vokoun being picked up in the expansion draft, figuring he was never going to amount to anything. And yet...look what happened. He's still here. All he needed was a chance. There are a lot of guys in this position. It's not just a bunch of random depth guys who will never amount to anything, it's guys like Vokoun.
I see you one Thomas and raise you another.



Imagine if Thomas had been given his chance at a reasonable age and he'd been able to put up 6 or 7 more years at his peak level. We'd be talking about a lights out Hall of Famer.

Any team struggling to find acceptable starting goaltending talent isn't doing so because that talent can't be found. They're doing so because they can't find the talent -- an entirely different, if superficially related, thing.

Philidelphia and Toronto, I am looking RIGHT AT YOU here (hard to do both at the same time, but I always knew I was part chameleon)

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:53 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Hockey Team View Post
Ok... so who's paying for these new franchises?

It's a different story if there's 30 healthy teams. But right now there's a ton of teams losing money as it is.
They're losing money because the rich teams are raising the price of talent. It has nothing to do with the availability or depth of talent.

You're not going to have even 20 teams that can compete directly for talent the way NYR, TOR, MTL can. Most of the western Canadian teams can forget it -- the cap is aimed right at saving those teams as it is. So you need to create a structure that puts limits on what those can teams can do for the sake of the rest of the league, and once you've done that, a lot of markets that aren't in western Canada become viable.

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12-28-2012, 10:56 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
Imagine if Thomas had been given his chance at a reasonable age and he'd been able to put up 6 or 7 more years at his peak level. We'd be talking about a lights out Hall of Famer.
And imagine if Mike Pelyk had been the second coming of Bobby Orr in Toronto. Fact is, Thomas didnt "Peak" until later in his career, doing so at just the right time. A shame that the Bruins & he couldnt repeat, replicate & supercede those results & expectations in 2011-12. Stanley Cup's by Lottery & Luck. Pretty Punk Ass way to be running a league.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:05 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
They're losing money because the rich teams are raising the price of talent. It has nothing to do with the availability or depth of talent.

You're not going to have even 20 teams that can compete directly for talent the way NYR, TOR, MTL can. Most of the western Canadian teams can forget it -- the cap is aimed right at saving those teams as it is. So you need to create a structure that puts limits on what those can teams can do for the sake of the rest of the league, and once you've done that, a lot of markets that aren't in western Canada become viable.
And that's just it. People don't realize that the big three (maybe even five) skew the numbers as bad as they do. There are not even 20 markets that can legitimately support a 60m payroll for hockey. The solution is not less teams, it's less payroll.

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12-28-2012, 11:07 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
And imagine if Mike Pelyk had been the second coming of Bobby Orr in Toronto. Fact is, Thomas didnt "Peak" until later in his career, doing so at just the right time. A shame that the Bruins & he couldnt repeat, replicate & supercede those results & expectations in 2011-12. Stanley Cup's by Lottery & Luck. Pretty Punk Ass way to be running a league.
Well, I'd say the NHL is stuck between punk ass and bankrupt personally.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:18 PM
  #41
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The NHL needs Atlanta only in so much as they are willing to pursue the fools errand of the national (us) TV contract. We've been down this road before, the plan of shoring up the current weak sisters by bringing in even weaker sisters does not do anything to strengthen the teams currently struggling.
Much more important than a national tv deal is a partnership with a viable US sports network.
People don't care about network TV like they used to. It's far more important that the NHL get love from ESPN and that NBCSports takes off,

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12-28-2012, 11:18 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
I see you one Thomas and raise you another.

Imagine if Thomas had been given his chance at a reasonable age and he'd been able to put up 6 or 7 more years at his peak level. We'd be talking about a lights out Hall of Famer.

Any team struggling to find acceptable starting goaltending talent isn't doing so because that talent can't be found. They're doing so because they can't find the talent -- an entirely different, if superficially related, thing.

Philidelphia and Toronto, I am looking RIGHT AT YOU here (hard to do both at the same time, but I always knew I was part chameleon)
We can go back a lot further than that, and find guys like Johnny Bower as an example of someone who excelled once he actually got a chance. More recently, we can add in Brian Rafalski and Martin St. Louis.

Right now, there are probably 10 guys out there who, given the chance, could step into the NHL next year and play on either the first line or first pairing. They're all in the AHL or playing in Europe.

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12-28-2012, 11:20 PM
  #43
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And imagine if Mike Pelyk had been the second coming of Bobby Orr in Toronto. Fact is, Thomas didnt "Peak" until later in his career, doing so at just the right time. A shame that the Bruins & he couldnt repeat, replicate & supercede those results & expectations in 2011-12. Stanley Cup's by Lottery & Luck. Pretty Punk Ass way to be running a league.
How can you say that Thomas peaked at 35 when he only just got a serious change in the NHL at age 31? For all we know, if given a chance to work out at age 23, he would have peaked by age 27 which is the normal trajectory.

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12-28-2012, 11:23 PM
  #44
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We can go back a lot further than that, and find guys like Johnny Bower as an example of someone who excelled once he actually got a chance. More recently, we can add in Brian Rafalski and Martin St. Louis.

Right now, there are probably 10 guys out there who, given the chance, could step into the NHL next year and play on either the first line or first pairing. They're all in the AHL or playing in Europe.
For another Bruins example, see Johnny Boychuk. No one gave him a chance until BOS got desperate, and ever since he's been in the top 4 of a very good defense.

and the Bruins themselves have 4 or 5 players in their AHL squad that are never going to get a shot at all until they move on because the team is deep. Maxim Sauve springs to mind.

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12-28-2012, 11:28 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Dojji View Post
How can you say that Thomas peaked at 35 when he only just got a serious change in the NHL at age 31? For all we know, if given a chance to work out at age 23, he would have peaked by age 27 which is the normal trajectory.
Well, its OT for this thread & Board so briefly, the guys' an outlier, Marches' to a different drummer as a lot of goalies do, and in a lot of cases they simply dont really peak until "middle player age" or even later in some cases. Generally speaking your quite correct, theres an "arc" or a pattern to "most" goaltenders careers, however, every now & again a guy like Tim Thomas comes along, doesnt really find his bearings until his late 20's or so, then Bang, shooting star for about 5yrs. Its one of the peculiarities of the sport, one of the things thats always interesting to witness happening when it occurs.

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12-28-2012, 11:34 PM
  #46
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I just disagree. If he'd gotten chances and done nothing with them, maybe I'd see your point. Because that didn't happen, you're just guessing that he wouldn't have peaked earlier if he'd been given a shot.

Back on topic.

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12-29-2012, 12:04 AM
  #47
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The league isn't limited by talent, or even by infrastructure, so much as it is by willing investors. Even though most of the paperwork appears to be done, I still have concerns about Phoenix going forward, and the last thing the NHL wants to do is move into a bunch of markets and leave the Coyotes with nowhere to go but out of the NHL completely.

The league has eight markets it could conceivably move into in short order:

Quebec City
Cleveland
Kansas City
Portland
Seattle
Markham
Atlanta
Houston

You can immediately mark out Atlanta because of the ownership situation. (As an aside, the Hawks are also failing miserably at the gate under ASG's management despite fielding a very good team.) Cleveland is a shrinking Rust Belt city, I'm not sure the league wants to go that route even though they have a very nice arena and an owner who likes hockey (Dan Gilbert owns the Lake Erie Monsters, who play there now). Houston has an arena, but unless Les Alexander has changed his tune or plans on divesting himself from his current interests in the same building, forget it. Kansas City has no owner, and the Markham arena is up in the air. That leaves you with three, of which Portland is probably the least likely.

I say expand by two shortly after the lockout, see how Phoenix recovers and how the Islanders do at the Barclays Center, then move on from there. 36 is the absolute most I can see in the NHL, though. No way they can go beyond that without putting teams in really bad situations, either in old arenas (Hamilton), tiny American markets (Hartford), or both (Milwaukee). Orlando is a longshot, and that's probably generous.


Last edited by worstfaceoffmanever: 12-29-2012 at 12:57 AM. Reason: Forgot how to count to 8
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Old
12-29-2012, 12:19 AM
  #48
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I just disagree. If he'd gotten chances and done nothing with them, maybe I'd see your point. Because that didn't happen, you're just guessing that he wouldn't have peaked earlier if he'd been given a shot.

Back on topic.
Fact; He didnt cut it earlier.
And Im just "guessing" & "imagining" that?

And ya, back on topic Dojji, end of this conversation.
PM me if you wanna discuss it further.

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Old
12-29-2012, 12:41 AM
  #49
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I see 2 teams in the very near future to have 4 8-team divisions

1. Quebec
2. Markham

See the thing is those markets should be utilized by transfer from the current markets bleeding money.....

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12-29-2012, 12:44 AM
  #50
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28-32 is fine in my book. There are troubled markets, but there are also open markets that would thrive with a team.

The NFL is the only league that legitimately has a shot at going to 36 or higher anytime soon. MLB might benefit from a two team expansion as well, but that's about their limit, too. NBA, if anything, is already way too spread out as it is, so doubt we'll see them above 30 for a long, long time.

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