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CBA / Lockout Discussion Thread (Update: player tested, owner approved)

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Old
12-21-2012, 01:00 PM
  #401
Felonious Python
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...3Rpb25z;_ylv=3

Adrian Dater also got that burst of anger in between periods of apathy.
http://blogs.denverpost.com/avs/2012...as-gary/12050/

The NHL took the headline down (allegedly), but not before someone could take a screenshot. While it could be fake, some websites also write headlines and even entire articles in the case of either A or B.


Why would they wait to cancel a season if the PA disclaims? Either they pass the deadline or they don't, either they disclaim or they don't.

Since the PR war never ends, the NHL would be wise to set the deadline as Jan 2nd. No symbolism there.

But working with the Jan 10 deadline, that would mean probably 3 days of assembling the guys, and 6 days of camp before dropping the puck, which would put the start of the season around the 20th.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-22-2012 at 10:50 AM.
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12-22-2012, 10:31 PM
  #402
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I've never understood why people take Forbes as gospel.

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12-24-2012, 04:10 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
I've never understood why people take Forbes as gospel.
Same reason people think Apple's are innovative and ground breaking tech.

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12-24-2012, 04:19 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by stryfe604 View Post
Same reason people think Apple's are innovative and ground breaking tech.
But, but, but one more thing.

HE FORGETS THINGS, THEY'RE SO INNOVATIVE!

Excellent analogy though.


Tim Thomas finally has made an apperance.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-24-2012 at 08:13 AM.
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12-25-2012, 02:00 PM
  #405
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Did anyone else happen to see the episode on NHL Network the other night with Phil Esposito?

He was talking about the time he was about to be traded to the Bruins from Chicago....Milt Schmidt of the Bruins offered him a contract for $9,000.....Phil demanded $12,000.

Amazing how times have changed huh? Some players nowadays are making that PER GAME and they're still not happy.

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12-26-2012, 07:16 AM
  #406
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Originally Posted by RussianGuyovich View Post
Yes, please don't take my refutation, and consequently, my posting of that article to mean that I stand behind Forbes' numbers for the NHL. My position remains firmly in the camp of "we really don't know anything" which means it's silly to debate sides.
Gotcha.

Quote:
Although I think you'd find this blog interesting:

http://www.mc79hockey.com/?p=4784

As it's in the same vein as what you are proclaiming. some excerpts:
Thanks. Good read.

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12-26-2012, 07:25 AM
  #407
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Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
I've never understood why people take Forbes as gospel.
I believe it's because a lot of uncritical readers often see the numbers cited as if they are.

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12-27-2012, 04:54 AM
  #408
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Pierre LeBrun's 10 ways for the NHL to recover from lockout: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...r-from-lockout

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12-27-2012, 06:33 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by LightningStrikes View Post
Pierre LeBrun's 10 ways for the NHL to recover from lockout: http://espn.go.com/blog/nhl/post/_/i...r-from-lockout
I like LeBrun but..

Some of those are almost brutal. Europe can't support NHL team any better than the poorest markets in US; much worse imo. Most tickets are under 20 bucks there, arenas still now full, not nearly enough money from sponsorship compared to US, arenas are small..

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12-27-2012, 11:31 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
I like LeBrun but..

Some of those are almost brutal. Europe can't support NHL team any better than the poorest markets in US; much worse imo. Most tickets are under 20 bucks there, arenas still now full, not nearly enough money from sponsorship compared to US, arenas are small..
I used to like the idea of having European teams in the NHL. Until I went there.

While there's nothing wrong with Europe itself, the time it takes to travel that distance is still too great, IMO.

I disagree with your point about 'Europe' not being able to support teams better than small market US. It's highly dependant on the city it's in. Moscow could probably support a team just fine. They already support how many KHL teams? 4? (Dynamo, CSKA, Spartak, and Atlant)

Atlant has the largest rink of the bunch with a capacity of 7,000.

The issue I see is that the way we define things is very North American centric. A 7,000 seat arena may not be up to 'NHL standards' over here, but if the team is able to make money and suitably compete in the NHL, who is to say?

It'd be an immensely complex process to get a true international league with the different languages, cultures, politics, laws, time differences, travel, and money involved. The overhead of the NHL office itself would have to be much larger as well.

You don't make the move into international expansion when you're crying poor, as NHL owners were first depicted of doing on cave paintings.

Maybe the closest example of this for the NHL would be the UEFA Champions League. Given that soccer/association football is the most popular sport in Europe, and indeed the world, but does not have more than a yearly tournament, (which is a more accurate discription of what it is), or teams representing the Americas in it, I think a more expensive sport like ice hockey is still has some hurdles to jump, especially if they want to keep the same schedule density.

The UEFA Champions League wikipedia page is one of the hardest things I've ever tried to comprehend. Give it a shot.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Champions_League

I think the NHL should keep things simple. They're having a hard enough time doing that.

Also, they won't let Phoenix fail. Imagine if the realities of expanding to Europe prove themselves too great? You think 2004-05 was a bad lockout?


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12-27-2012, 02:25 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post

I disagree with your point about 'Europe' not being able to support teams better than small market US. It's highly dependant on the city it's in. Moscow could probably support a team just fine. They already support how many KHL teams? 4? (Dynamo, CSKA, Spartak, and Atlant)

Those teams don't make profit, iirc. They have oil money, lots of it. Tickets are very cheap. Owners are willing to absorb losses, though.

I think they would also have to have lots of Russians in the team there to makei it work. Maybe.

In Finland and Sweden.. basically no chance.

And I see no need/use to expand to Europe for just one or two teams.

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12-27-2012, 02:59 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Those teams don't make profit, iirc. They have oil money, lots of it. Tickets are very cheap. Owners are willing to absorb losses, though.

I think they would also have to have lots of Russians in the team there to makei it work. Maybe.

In Finland and Sweden.. basically no chance.

And I see no need/use to expand to Europe for just one or two teams.
I agree with most of what you're saying here.

However, the Stockholm metro area, which wikipedia claims to have 22% of the Swedish population, has a population of 2,119,760; which puts them above speculated markets like Kansas City and Las Vegas and at least seven existing NHL markets (San Jose, Columbus, Nashville, Ottawa, Calgary, Edmonton, and Buffalo)

There is also a significant issue of what to do with teams already in the area and what the backlash of that will be.

Moscow and Stockholm could support NHL teams. The questions are would they, and should they?


edit:

k, looks like the NHL has died on their hill of 5-year contract limits. 6-years now.

Quote:
According to TSN Hockey Insider Darren Dreger, the NHL adjusted its maximum contract length from five to six years (seven years if a team is re-signing its own player) and boosted the variance from five to 10 per cent.
+ one compliance buyout that would not count towards the cap, but the players' share.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=412368


I'm going to do something about the lockout. Each day, retroactive to September 15th, I will gain 1 pound a day until the lockout is over. Take that, Gary.


Last edited by Felonious Python: 12-28-2012 at 12:25 PM.
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12-28-2012, 12:38 PM
  #413
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http://www.nhl.com/ice/news.htm?id=648392

Daly on the new CBA proposal:
Quote:
"In light of media reports this morning, I can confirm that we delivered to the Union a new, comprehensive proposal for a successor CBA late yesterday afternoon. We are not prepared to discuss the details of our proposal at this time. We are hopeful that once the Union's staff and negotiating committee have had an opportunity to thoroughly review and consider our new proposal, they will share it with the players. We want to be back on the ice as soon as possible."
http://www.tampabay.com/blogs/lightn...a-negotiations
Quote:
The Players' Association has a 3 p.m. conference call to discuss the offer.

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12-28-2012, 03:59 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by Felonious Python View Post
+ one compliance buyout that would not count towards the cap, but the players' share.
I wonder if we could buy out Vinnie Lecavalier and then immediately re-sign him for 6 years at $600K per season?

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12-28-2012, 05:12 PM
  #415
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I wonder if we could buy out Vinnie Lecavalier and then immediately re-sign him for 6 years at $600K per season?
Although he's made a ton of money since he signed his big contract, 600K imo is an insulting offer to give Vinny.

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12-28-2012, 05:19 PM
  #416
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Although he's made a ton of money since he signed his big contract, 600K imo is an insulting offer to give Vinny.
Yes.

600k is taking a BIG hometown discount. He could get 6 million as a free agent.

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12-28-2012, 06:12 PM
  #417
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I would buy him out and offer him 5-6 years at 4.5-5 million
And I think he would take that discount

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12-28-2012, 09:33 PM
  #418
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Vinny would probably resign for a solid deal for both sides. I think 6 would be ok. A lot better for the team than he was making. That would help the team quite a bit.

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12-28-2012, 09:50 PM
  #419
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https://twitter.com/LightningTimes
Quote:
Lightning's Crombeen, a member of union negotiating committee, said NHL's offer is ":encouraging that they took some steps toward us."
Quote:
More Crombeen: "But having said that, if they're going to continue negotiating with take it or leave it, I wouldn't be overly optimistic."

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12-28-2012, 10:55 PM
  #420
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Well.....it's not like Crombeen has much to worry about. It's not like many of the new proposals will affect him much at all for as many years as he's likely to play.

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12-28-2012, 11:24 PM
  #421
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Admittedly I havent read the terms in the new offer, but the last CBA buyout had a clause where any player that is bought out could not be resigned by that team for at least a year.

So if its anything like that, no we cant just buy out VL4 and then resign him to a pretty number.

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12-28-2012, 11:38 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Admittedly I havent read the terms in the new offer, but the last CBA buyout had a clause where any player that is bought out could not be resigned by that team for at least a year.

So if its anything like that, no we cant just buy out VL4 and then resign him to a pretty number.
I think it was more than that. There was talk that teams could drop guys, sign elsewhere, and then trade them back to the team that bought them out before the season started. IIRC, the rule was they couldn't be re-acquired by any means for that season.

but yes, I believe you are correct.

What they could do, and it doesn't feel at all like the Lightning, is Vinny doesn't show up the first day of camp to have his picture taken, the team terminates his contract and then signs him to whatever.

Assuming that hole will still exist.

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12-29-2012, 12:13 AM
  #423
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Originally Posted by IdealisticSniper View Post
Admittedly I havent read the terms in the new offer, but the last CBA buyout had a clause where any player that is bought out could not be resigned by that team for at least a year.

So if its anything like that, no we cant just buy out VL4 and then resign him to a pretty number.
That's what I was going after, are they going to plug that possibility... Vinny's going to get the big money for his 11-year contract no matter what, and since we don't have any really Rick DiPietro grade dumb deals in the system, I was wondering if a franchise guy like VL might do his club a favor. 600K was a bit tongue in cheek, I was just trying to think of the maximum way to take advantage of the situation.

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12-29-2012, 12:26 AM
  #424
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Here's a dumb question... could it be possible to buy out a player that's already been bought out since the Compliance Buy-Out's made to eliminate a contract from effecting the cap? Prospal's 1.167 million from his buy out is still part of our cap through 2015.

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12-29-2012, 09:26 AM
  #425
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Here's a dumb question... could it be possible to buy out a player that's already been bought out since the Compliance Buy-Out's made to eliminate a contract from effecting the cap? Prospal's 1.167 million from his buy out is still part of our cap through 2015.
That's a very interesting question actually.

I don't think there'd be a discount, since it's already been bought out, but to shift it off the cap and into the players share is an intriguing idea.

The players won't like it of course, but it's probably better to take that hit into the players share than an existing contract.

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