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LeBrun: NHL made new offer to NHLPA on Thursday (12/27)

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Old
12-28-2012, 05:50 PM
  #226
Freudian
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Parity is not exclusive to having new teams go deep in the playoffs. Terrible management of franchises is the biggest reason we are in this mess.
Signing a 35+ player to a front loaded seven year contract, like they weren't aware the cap hit stays even if the player retires, kind of terrible management?

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12-28-2012, 06:01 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by Xref View Post
Umm, here? Read the bolded sentence.

That was from a different thread! No wonder I was mixed up.


Well in that case you're right, but if we're looking at this exclusively from an NHL standpoint, the top earners make less than they did 10-15 years ago, and the lower levels guys make a whole hell of a lot more. So in effect there has been more of a balancing of player revenue since the last CBA.

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12-28-2012, 06:04 PM
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheswick View Post
There is no need to go to court to "go after the cap". The union decertifying would take care of the cap. It's illegal outside a CBA. IF there's no union theres no CBA, no Cap, no draft, no guaranteed contracts, no minimum contract etc etc etc.
And without any of those things, quite frankly, there won't be a league. If the players think decertifying is the Rosetta Stone of getting what they want, I think they are quite frankly, the dumbest individuals on the face of this rock.

What they stand to lose is infinitely greater than what they stand to gain. Just knowing going forward that contracts aren't guaranteed, means that anyone that signs a big deal and underperforms (and that's a LOT of NHL'ers), is going to find himself on the curb in short order.

The players are so ridiculous. As if these guys are at risk of living anything other than a supremely privileged and wealthy life. I hope they get smoked. I really do. I hope they all end up in a place that's worse than they could possibly fathom. I wish it on each and every one of them with every ounce of my being.

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12-28-2012, 06:08 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by kaneone View Post
So why can't they adjust the cap for the next full season? Let's say they make $2.2B during the shortened season (assuming 48 games), why can't they just adjust the cap as if they made about $3.8B?

I think that would make more sense than ruining every teams' cap.
That's what they're planning to do--set the cap for 2013-2014 based on estimated pro-rated revenue from a partial season. But just using a 48:82 ratio isn't an accurate measurement when you consider things like the teams still play 100% of the playoff games.


Last edited by mouser: 12-28-2012 at 06:13 PM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 06:09 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by Xref View Post
The best players are significantly underpaid? Like who? This is a joke, right?
What portion of the Penguins' player generated revenue do you think Crosby and Malkin are responsible for? This season they would each have be making about 14% of the team's payroll. I agree with Dado, I believe the top players in the league are underpaid.

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Old
12-28-2012, 06:13 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
Except the players are going to fight tooth and nail to prevent salary rollbacks that would make this cap more plausible. Here, let me show you the mess this is going to make. Let's start with the San Jose Sharks

The Sharks currently have a cap hit of $65 Million. After all their free agents depart this year they will have $56 Million cap hit and approximately $4 million to fill their needs which include but are not limited to:

-2nd Line RW
-3rd Line C
-3rd Line RF
-17th forward on the bench
-7th Defenseman
-Backup Goaltender

Sure, they could buyout one of their very expensive core pieces that play an important roll on their team (Marleau, Thornton, Pavelski, Boyle, and Burns), but that leaves too big a hole to fill and sets them back big time. Even if they renegotiate a cheaper contract, they're much likely to look inward first to fill these needs on cheap league minimum contracts (I heard League Minimum was going up as well...) Yeah, the Sharks are kind of screwed and won't even think about free agency as they fight to construct a whole roster that can fit under the cap.

Let's look at the Bruins...
They have $68 Million in total cap hit committed this year. Once all their free agents depart, the total cap payroll will be about $53 Million assuming they use their free buyout on Marc Savard and will have $8 Million to spend... They need:

-2nd Line RW
-6th Defender
-16th and 17th forwards on the bench

Assuming you want some cap space to allow wiggle room, they're likely to roll with Jared (Jordan? please forgive me if I messed his name up) Knight and sign some 4th line plugs for their bench...

Here is the situation for the Chicago Blackhawks:
They have a $64 million cap payroll. With FAs departing, they will have $59 Million cap payroll, and depending on how you look at it, they'll need

-2/3rds of a second line
-Back Goaltender

Someone important is going to get cut, and even then, the Hawks will have to roll with Brandon Saad and some other cheap prospect as they will not have any room to sign a FA


Minnesota Wild:
Will have $55 Million to spend after FAs leave. If Harding can't play anymore, then they need a goaltending duo with Hacket likely the starter. It's buh-bye Backstrom and Pierre Buchard as the Wild will have to plug in important holes with their prospects as they don't have any money to spend on FAs


Buffalo Sabres:
Will have $49.5 Million assuming Leino is bought out to spend with FA departure and . They need 2 defensemen and a 2nd Line LW. They probably roll with Grigorenko as a center giving them four centers, and Foligno gives them four LWers. They could sign 2 Dmen @3.5 Million each giving them a cap payroll of $56 million with a little wiggle room.

Other teams with similar situations where they will be forced to find cheap plugs in order to have a full 23 man roster include, but are not limited to:

-Calgary Flames
-Philadelphia Flyers
-Detroit Red Wings
-Los Angeles Kings
-Motreal Canadiens
-Toronto Maple Leafs
-New York Rangers
-Pittsburgh Penguins
-Tampa Bay Lightning
-Vancouver Canucks
-Washington Capitals

We're talking 16 teams (a tick over half the league) that will be having roster crunches or issues. The rest of the teams either have a bunch of roster spaces to fill (New Jersey, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Anaheim) and will probably resign what they have already, or are teams that traditionally aren't very good (New York Islanders, Florida Panthers), or don't spend money period and have pretty filled rosters as is (Colorado, Dallas, St. Louis)...

Do you get my point now? This is a serious problem that's going to screw all the good teams for no reason whatsoever. This cap hit is bad news.
How does the make whole piece factor into this? Is it only contracts for this year or can it be used as a cushion for next year as well? If it can be used against some of next years, given the cap number this year, then it should remove some pressure.
or do I completely mis-understand the make whole principle?

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Old
12-28-2012, 06:44 PM
  #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
What portion of the Penguins' player generated revenue do you think Crosby and Malkin are responsible for? This season they would each have be making about 14% of the team's payroll. I agree with Dado, I believe the top players in the league are underpaid.
Then you need to petition the NHLPA to argue to decrease the minimum salary floor. Not sure they will agree with this, but hey, Crosby needs more bank!

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Old
12-28-2012, 07:21 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Freudian View Post
Signing a 35+ player to a front loaded seven year contract, like they weren't aware the cap hit stays even if the player retires, kind of terrible management?
Didn't realize we were team-specific, but yes, it is. Luckily the Flyers have the financial backing that it's a hole easily covered up. Not sure why the Flyers got singled out, if you want to do a search on our board there's no shortage of topics ripping the organization for dumb crap, such as trying to sign draft-eligible players and not being able to apply the proper variance to Max Talbot's contract.

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Old
12-28-2012, 07:42 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It's not a joke at all. Top players in the NHL are paid far less than their peers in the other major sports. Meanwhile, the NHL has both the highest minimum salary in pro sport AND guaranteed contracts. In a cap world, to the extent the best are underpaid, others will by definition be overpaid. Similarly, to the extent the lessers are overpaid, the best must be underpaid.

And that's all just a complicated way of saying "revenue sharing"....
Top NHL players are paid far less because they generate far less revenue. That's a horrible comparison. Top players in the NHL probably take a greater piece of the pie than other sports.

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12-28-2012, 07:55 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by Pepper View Post
Well, the NHL and NHLPA are quite close today, the differences are quite small (compared to what it was in september).

If the players stay true to their claims "we just want to play", they would look even bigger villains & liers if they voted down NHL's deadline offer.
yep. with their reaction, the players will reveal what is really important to them... Hockey or their PA.

Don Fehr gives them tunnel vision; they don't see the big picture under him. He makes them think they can defeat billionaires and that the smallest of gains is worth the loss of 2 or 3 paychecks. I'm mean really, is one or two contract years, for about 30 stars, really worth 2 paychecks?

and Bettman just makes them insane.

I'm somewhat worried they will chose the PA.

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Old
12-28-2012, 08:54 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Top players in the NHL probably take a greater piece of the pie than other sports.
I look forward to your detailed demonstration of that being so.


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Old
12-28-2012, 08:56 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Xref View Post
Then you need to petition the NHLPA to argue to decrease the minimum salary floor.
It doesn't need to be changed. This is a PA choice they've made - they've decided to spread the wealth - revenue share amongst themselves - and there's nothing wrong with them making that choice. Just like there would be nothing wrong with the owners doing the same amongst themselves. The league, for obvious reasons, does what it can to encourage this.

I think, however, there are signs the big boys are starting to wake up to their actual worth. Anybody doubting how dependent Pittsburgh is on Crosby and Malkin for revenue only has to compare the before and after numbers. Those guys are paid a pittance compared to what they do for the franchise.

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12-28-2012, 09:13 PM
  #238
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You guys do realize the average contract is much larger in the NHL than the NFL right?

Might be NBA too.

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12-28-2012, 09:22 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by BradD View Post
You guys do realize the average contract is much larger in the NHL than the NFL right?

Might be NBA too.
I believe they are talking about the "top players" salaries.

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12-28-2012, 09:35 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by BradD View Post
You guys do realize the average contract is much larger in the NHL than the NFL right?

Might be NBA too.
If you take into account that an NFL player plays 16 season games maybe 8 more with luck in pre and post season NHL salaries look pale when you note the difference in amount of games and work travel and such its a very interesting comparison to use .

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12-28-2012, 09:52 PM
  #241
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
It doesn't need to be changed. This is a PA choice they've made - they've decided to spread the wealth - revenue share amongst themselves - and there's nothing wrong with them making that choice. Just like there would be nothing wrong with the owners doing the same amongst themselves. The league, for obvious reasons, does what it can to encourage this.

I think, however, there are signs the big boys are starting to wake up to their actual worth. Anybody doubting how dependent Pittsburgh is on Crosby and Malkin for revenue only has to compare the before and after numbers. Those guys are paid a pittance compared to what they do for the franchise.
The Pittsburgh/Crosby relationship is true, but a unique situation. How about clubs like Toronto, Montreal, or the NYR? They will draw their revenues regardless of the names on the backs of the sweaters.

If the PA is ok with the player pay scales, then why are we bellyaching about it?

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:05 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by BradD View Post
You guys do realize the average contract is much larger in the NHL than the NFL right?

Might be NBA too.
It's unfair to compare the average salary when the NFL roster size is 53 with most not playing any downs. Try starting by:
1) compairing the average NFL Salaries for starting players
2) taking into account the length of the season....either by games played or weeks

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12-28-2012, 10:12 PM
  #243
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The only way you can say that is by comparing PO appearances from years under the old CBA.
Oh no... I forgot the Islanders had 1 measly one and done playoff performance...

Anyways, no, I can say this. You asserted that the Cap created "parity" and I showed you it was just a gaggle of the same 13 teams making the playoffs year in and year out with a slew of others making it every other year because some teams flamed out due to horrible management and other teams getting good based on good drafting, to which the cap didn't have any part of.

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12-28-2012, 10:12 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by leaffansince1961 View Post
It's unfair to compare the average salary when the NFL roster size is 53 with most not playing any downs. Try starting by:
1) compairing the average NFL Salaries for starting players
2) taking into account the length of the season....either by games played or weeks
Because if you did that, the NHL players would have to receive 250% of HRR! LOL.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:09 PM
  #245
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Originally Posted by bbud View Post
If you take into account that an NFL player plays 16 season games maybe 8 more with luck in pre and post season NHL salaries look pale when you note the difference in amount of games and work travel and such its a very interesting comparison to use .
Number of games isn't that important. It's a full time job for the athletes in both sports.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:48 PM
  #246
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Originally Posted by mouser View Post
Number of games isn't that important. It's a full time job for the athletes in both sports.
Exactly; if you only compare based on number of games, that would imply that baseball players deserve 10 times more pay than football players while ignoring the immense practicing required for football vs extremely limited vs baseball.... hockey and basketball are in the middle.

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12-29-2012, 12:50 AM
  #247
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Any player reactions or PA responses?

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12-29-2012, 01:41 AM
  #248
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If the players don't agree on this proposal, it will just enforce the NHL's in a potential legal battle in court. They will accept but I think if they try to negotiate the league may withdraw their offer and try to win the struggle in court and save the cost of the players salaries for this season.


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Old
12-29-2012, 04:43 AM
  #249
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Originally Posted by GKJ View Post
Didn't realize we were team-specific, but yes, it is. Luckily the Flyers have the financial backing that it's a hole easily covered up. Not sure why the Flyers got singled out, if you want to do a search on our board there's no shortage of topics ripping the organization for dumb crap, such as trying to sign draft-eligible players and not being able to apply the proper variance to Max Talbot's contract.
My point was that you have to separate being in a good market and having terrible management. Don Maloney does as good a job as any GM in the league, the team spends least money and they still lose the most money in the league. Simply because they were in a weak market to start with and for some insane reason moved to a suburb

Meanwhile, many of the richest teams in the league have made the most bad decisions.

Parity is fine if it enables well run smaller teams to compete with less well run teams with more financial muscle.

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12-29-2012, 06:52 AM
  #250
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Originally Posted by Luuuongo View Post
Any player reactions or PA responses?
The two sides will be meeting this weekend, apparently. A great sign.

Quote:
Coach's Corner commentator Don Cherry believes the NHL's offer is a good step forward.

"Nice move by the NHL. They came back and bent a little with the $300 million back on. Moving to 6 year [contract] signing instead of the 5," Cherry tweeted.

"They were the first to say lets negotiate. Fehr will likely come back with an 8 year deal and settle on 7. He will not go for the 10 years."
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl/...new-offer.html

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