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Sam Gagner and Ryan Whitney

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Old
12-28-2012, 09:50 PM
  #26
The Nuge
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Reading this thread makes me realize just how little people watch Gagner and how they have absolutely no clue about the guy. He's no superstar, but its absolutely laughable to suggest he's not a legit 2nd line center, or that he's already peaked at the old age of 23

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12-28-2012, 10:11 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Reading this thread makes me realize just how little people watch Gagner and how they have absolutely no clue about the guy. He's no superstar, but its absolutely laughable to suggest he's not a legit 2nd line center, or that he's already peaked at the old age of 23
Dude Gagner sucks

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:31 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Reading this thread makes me realize just how little people watch Gagner and how they have absolutely no clue about the guy. He's no superstar, but its absolutely laughable to suggest he's not a legit 2nd line center, or that he's already peaked at the old age of 23
The definition of "legit 2nd line center" is very loose. Is Gagner a 2nd line centerman? yes, on the Oilers. Is he a good 2nd line centerman? No. Can he be a serviceable 3rd line centerman? No. Does he have potential still? Yes but the door is closing quickly.

Bottom line is that Gagner's value is solely on what little potential he has left. As it stands he is currently not a good 2nd line centerman option for a team to have. There is a reason that pretty much every other Oiler trade thread has Gagner in it.

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12-28-2012, 10:31 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Oates2Neely View Post
Dude Gagner sucks
Most Oiler fans know Sam Gagner sucks.That is why Sam Gagner is not part of the main core going forward.

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:42 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by FanHabtic View Post
The definition of "legit 2nd line center" is very loose. Is Gagner a 2nd line centerman? yes, on the Oilers. Is he a good 2nd line centerman? No. Can he be a serviceable 3rd line centerman? No. Does he have potential still? Yes but the door is closing quickly.

Bottom line is that Gagner's value is solely on what little potential he has left. As it stands he is currently not a good 2nd line centerman option for a team to have. There is a reason that pretty much every other Oiler trade thread has Gagner in it.
This is utter nonsense. Gags is a .6 PPG forward who has never once scored less than 41 points. He has drastically improved his skating, he fights, and he sticks up for teammates. Some Oiler fans want to get a bigger #2 C because he plays to similar to Nuge, not because he isn't good enough. The Gagner hate from other teams fans has become flat out comical

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12-28-2012, 10:51 PM
  #31
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Spezza
Turris

Grabovski
Bozak

Plekanec
Desharnais

Bergeron
Krejci

Ennis
Hodgson

Crosby
Malkin

Giroux
Briere

Richards
Stepan

Tavares
Nielsen

Zajac
Henrique

Backstrom
Ribeiro

Staal
Staal

Stamkos
Lecavalier

Jokinen
Little

Weiss
Goc

Sedin
Kesler

Cammalleri
Cervenka

Koivu
Granlund/Brodziak

O'Reilly
Stastny/Duchene

Kopitar
Richards

Getzlaf
Koivu

Thornton
Couture

Hanzal
Vermette

Benn
Roy

Datsyuk
Zetterberg

Prospal
Anisimov

Toews
Bolland

Fisher
Legwand

Backes
Berglund



I personally would take every single one of those centres over Gagner.

Only ones you could argue are:
-on par with Bozak
-better than the unproven Cervenka (but we don't really know)
-better offensively than Koivu (but I prefer Koivu overall)


3 teams on which he MIGHT be the 2nd line centre.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:25 PM
  #32
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Must be trying to make Gagner look good:

He's at:
366gp 77g 143a 220pts

Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Spezza - 7m, 606gp 226g 390a 616pts
Turris - 3.5m, 186gp 31g 44a 75ptr

Grabovski - 5.5m, 319gp 85g 116a 201pts
Bozak - 1.5, UFA at end of season



More to come....

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:28 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by victor View Post
Must be trying to make Gagner look good:

He's at:
366gp 77g 143a 220pts




More to come....


I didn't write that.

Do you really think TML will have trouble re-signing Bozak?

And so Gagner has been in the league longer than Turris... Quite irrelevant to their current abilities.

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12-28-2012, 11:32 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post


I didn't write that.

Do you really think TML will have trouble re-signing Bozak?

And so Gagner has been in the league longer than Turris... Quite irrelevant to their current abilities.
Plekanec 5m, 551gp, 142g, 221a, 363pts
Desharnais (26 year old RFA) 0.850k, 130gp, 24g, 59a, 83pts

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:36 PM
  #35
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Van:

Schroeder
Luongo



EDM:

Gagner
Klefbom

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:37 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
This is utter nonsense. Gags is a .6 PPG forward who has never once scored less than 41 points. He has drastically improved his skating, he fights, and he sticks up for teammates. Some Oiler fans want to get a bigger #2 C because he plays to similar to Nuge, not because he isn't good enough. The Gagner hate from other teams fans has become flat out comical
None of what you said makes it utter nonsense. In fact, your "positive spin" on Gagner is comical. You are using Gagner's pugilistic capabilities as a positive part of his game? Seriously?

There is no Gagner hate. I don't hate the guy. I just don't want him as a 2nd line centerman on my team. This seems to be a constant among HF forum members (including many Oiler fans). He's too small, too soft, not productive enough, not great defensively. He's just not good enough and he doesn't have the ability to be a good 3rd line centerman.

Just accept the fact that he is not a good option as a 2nd line centerman and move on.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:38 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Spezza
Turris

Grabovski
Bozak

Plekanec
Desharnais

Bergeron
Krejci

Ennis
Hodgson

Crosby
Malkin

Giroux
Briere

Richards
Stepan

Tavares
Nielsen

Zajac
Henrique

Backstrom
Ribeiro

Staal
Staal

Stamkos
Lecavalier

Jokinen
Little


Weiss
Goc

Sedin
Kesler

Cammalleri
Cervenka

Koivu
Granlund/Brodziak

O'Reilly
Stastny/Duchene

Kopitar
Richards

Getzlaf
Koivu

Thornton
Couture

Hanzal
Vermette

Benn
Roy

Datsyuk
Zetterberg

Prospal
Anisimov

Toews
Bolland

Fisher
Legwand

Backes
Berglund


I would take Gagner over any of these guys, most of them easily. Berglund is a really close call for size, so is Anisimov - so I split em 50/50. But Gagner outscores them both and other than size probably brings more intangibles too, frankly. Hell, most of these comparisons are ridiculous anyway. We're looking at some 35+ year old centers that are clearly at the end of the line in some cases - who the hell would take them over Gagner? Then we have players who have hardly outscored their goaltenders somehow being positioned as better than Gagner? Lets not forget the hundreds of other centers who Gagner unequestionably performs, where there is no possible metric or delusion that could convince a single soul of his inferiority. First you have to accept that Gagner is a very good center in terms of the total number of centers in the NHL. Then you have to accept that he gives most of the rest a run for their money, at the very least. Are there 30 clearly superior? MAYBE. 50? Not a chance. 2nd line centre? Clearly.

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Old
12-28-2012, 11:41 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post


I didn't write that.

Do you really think TML will have trouble re-signing Bozak?

And so Gagner has been in the league longer than Turris... Quite irrelevant to their current abilities.
You listed players, and I'm merely pointing out that the players cap hit is relevant.

Gagner might not be a great player, nor a 2nd liner, but if you look at his stats to his cap hit, he's an interesting player, to say the least.

As a 2nd liner, he seems to out perform many, and it appears he's been playing against 1st line defenders. Edmonton should keep him, now that they have a true #1 line, and see if his performance improves. If he's a 50-60 point player, is he better than many of the players on your list? If he's a $3.5m per year player while being a 50-60 point player (playing with Hemsky and Yakupov) does that mean he's an "acceptable" 2nd liner?

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12-28-2012, 11:54 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by victor View Post
You listed players, and I'm merely pointing out that the players cap hit is relevant.

Gagner might not be a great player, nor a 2nd liner, but if you look at his stats to his cap hit, he's an interesting player, to say the least.

As a 2nd liner, he seems to out perform many, and it appears he's been playing against 1st line defenders. Edmonton should keep him, now that they have a true #1 line, and see if his performance improves. If he's a 50-60 point player, is he better than many of the players on your list? If he's a $3.5m per year player while being a 50-60 point player (playing with Hemsky and Yakupov) does that mean he's an "acceptable" 2nd liner?
I simply named the top 2 centres on each team. Gagner could be a top 2 centre on Toronto, Calgary and Anaheim. That's it.

If he became a 55 point scorer, then he would be an OK 2nd liner. He has yet to top 50 points and he likely never will.

Very few teams are at the cap limit, so that's not a big deal. At any rate, teams aren't gonna trade their elite 2nd centre making 4.5 for a downgrade in Gagner making 3.5. Cap hit is not an issue.

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Old
12-29-2012, 12:03 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by alphahelix View Post
I would take Gagner over any of these guys, most of them easily. Berglund is a really close call for size, so is Anisimov - so I split em 50/50. But Gagner outscores them both and other than size probably brings more intangibles too, frankly. Hell, most of these comparisons are ridiculous anyway. We're looking at some 35+ year old centers that are clearly at the end of the line in some cases - who the hell would take them over Gagner? Then we have players who have hardly outscored their goaltenders somehow being positioned as better than Gagner? Lets not forget the hundreds of other centers who Gagner unequestionably performs, where there is no possible metric or delusion that could convince a single soul of his inferiority. First you have to accept that Gagner is a very good center in terms of the total number of centers in the NHL. Then you have to accept that he gives most of the rest a run for their money, at the very least. Are there 30 clearly superior? MAYBE. 50? Not a chance. 2nd line centre? Clearly.
Newsflash, it's not just about offense. Defense counts too.

I simply named the top 2 centres for each team. So Prospal for example is old, by the time he retires another prospect will have developed and be better than Gagner... it doesn't matter. Gagner, right now, is not performing like a good 2nd line centre.

In the future, Gagner will not perform like a good 2nd line centre.


Centres clearly ahead of Gagner right now:

Spezza
Turris
Desharnais
Plekanec
Grabovski
Bergeron
Krejci
Seguin
Peverley
Ennis
Hodgson
Giroux
Briere
Couturier
Crosby
Malkin
Richards
Stepan
Tavares
Nielsen
Zajac
Henrique
Backstrom
Ribeiro
Laich
Weiss
Goc
Stamkos
Lecavalier
Staal
Staal
Little
Jokinen
Sedin
Kesler
Cammalleri
Koivu
Nugent-Hopkins
Duchene
Stastny
O'Reilly
Kopitar
Richards
Carter
Getzlaf
Thornton
Pavelski
Couture
Hanzal
Datsyuk
Zetterberg
Benn
Roy
Backes
Berglund
Steen
Prospal
Toews
Bolland
Fisher
Legwand



Other guys I would take ahead of Gagner right now:

Sutter
Kelly
Schenn
Brodziak
Koivu
Vermette



See how many quality centres are out there?



That's not even listing the prospects who will be better than Gagner shortly.

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Old
12-29-2012, 01:59 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capitalsrock View Post
Van:

Schroeder
Luongo



EDM:

Gagner
Klefbom
Ewe. No!

Not even going to respond to the Gagner as a #2C comments anymore. Some of the players being listed as "better" aren't even remotely close to as good

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12-29-2012, 04:29 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphahelix View Post
I would take Gagner over any of these guys, most of them easily. Berglund is a really close call for size, so is Anisimov - so I split em 50/50. But Gagner outscores them both and other than size probably brings more intangibles too, frankly. Hell, most of these comparisons are ridiculous anyway. We're looking at some 35+ year old centers that are clearly at the end of the line in some cases - who the hell would take them over Gagner? Then we have players who have hardly outscored their goaltenders somehow being positioned as better than Gagner? Lets not forget the hundreds of other centers who Gagner unequestionably performs, where there is no possible metric or delusion that could convince a single soul of his inferiority. First you have to accept that Gagner is a very good center in terms of the total number of centers in the NHL. Then you have to accept that he gives most of the rest a run for their money, at the very least. Are there 30 clearly superior? MAYBE. 50? Not a chance. 2nd line centre? Clearly.
Both Frans Nielsen and Gagner have shown, they can score 45 or so pts on the 2nd line. But, Nielsen is much better defensively then Gagner and on a team friendly 4 yr contract.


Also, the NYI have center prospects Strome, Brock Nelson, Cizikas, Sundstrom and Ullstrom either nhl ready or getting close to nhl ready. No interest or need for Gagner on LI.

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12-29-2012, 08:27 AM
  #43
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Originally Posted by oilersfan11 View Post
Most Oiler fans know Sam Gagner sucks.That is why Sam Gagner is not part of the main core going forward.
An honest Oiler fan. Gagner is not a prototypical #2 center. He doesn't have much value at all. He's not talented enough to be a #2, and he isn't defensively strong enough to be a #3 checking line center. Why would a team trade for him?

I agree with you, Gagner certainly is not part of the Oilers core going forward. The Oilers will be competing for Stanley Cups in the very near future, and I'm willing to gamble that Gagner will not be centering their 2nd line when they do.

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12-29-2012, 09:00 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Ewe. No!

Not even going to respond to the Gagner as a #2C comments anymore. Some of the players being listed as "better" aren't even remotely close to as good
You seriously wouldn't do that deal?? You must REALLY like Klefbom.

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12-29-2012, 11:09 AM
  #45
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You seriously wouldn't do that deal?? You must REALLY like Klefbom.
Klefbom is extremely highly regarded by anyone that's watched him play and was considered by many to be the top dman in the SEL before his injury. For a team lacking a #1 dman, those aren't people you trade

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12-29-2012, 11:52 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Both Frans Nielsen and Gagner have shown, they can score 45 or so pts on the 2nd line. But, Nielsen is much better defensively then Gagner and on a team friendly 4 yr contract.
I like Frans Nielsen, and see them as similar players. At the same age as Gagner is now, Nielsen had played 31 NHL games, with 3 goals and 2 assists for 5 points. They're about the same size (Gagner is an inch shorter, and 9 pounds heavier, according to NHL.com)

Problem with Gagner, is that he's been playing forever. He's 366 games into his career, and is only 23. People look at the career -42, but don't see that he was +5 last year. Or that he's gone from 41.8% faceoff percentage (14th on his team in 2007-2008) to 47.6% last year (3rd on the team, behind Horcoff and Belanger.) On a team that's developed Hall, Hopkins, Eberle, and all, and he was lost in the rush.

Fantasy draft players: If there is a season this year, I'd take a long look at Gagner in the middle rounds. He'll likely be between Yakupov and Hemsky, and will be playing against the 2nd pairing of forwards defense (I expect that teams will put out their best players for Hall-Hopkins-Eberle.) Could be a prolific scorer, and given his reputation on boards such as these (for what that's worth) he'll likely be a performer.

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12-29-2012, 12:30 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by victor View Post
I like Frans Nielsen, and see them as similar players. At the same age as Gagner is now, Nielsen had played 31 NHL games, with 3 goals and 2 assists for 5 points. They're about the same size (Gagner is an inch shorter, and 9 pounds heavier, according to NHL.com)

Problem with Gagner, is that he's been playing forever. He's 366 games into his career, and is only 23. People look at the career -42, but don't see that he was +5 last year. Or that he's gone from 41.8% faceoff percentage (14th on his team in 2007-2008) to 47.6% last year (3rd on the team, behind Horcoff and Belanger.) On a team that's developed Hall, Hopkins, Eberle, and all, and he was lost in the rush.

Fantasy draft players: If there is a season this year, I'd take a long look at Gagner in the middle rounds. He'll likely be between Yakupov and Hemsky, and will be playing against the 2nd pairing of forwards defense (I expect that teams will put out their best players for Hall-Hopkins-Eberle.) Could be a prolific scorer, and given his reputation on boards such as these (for what that's worth) he'll likely be a performer.
Isles want more then the 47 pts or so that Frans Nielsen brings to the 2nd line.

I think they are looking for Strome or Brock Nelson will develop into a 60 pt 2nd line center.

As for Gagner...I wouldn't be surprised if he racked up assists alongside nail.

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12-29-2012, 12:33 PM
  #48
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I like Frans Nielsen, and see them as similar players. At the same age as Gagner is now, Nielsen had played 31 NHL games, with 3 goals and 2 assists for 5 points. They're about the same size (Gagner is an inch shorter, and 9 pounds heavier, according to NHL.com)

Problem with Gagner, is that he's been playing forever. He's 366 games into his career, and is only 23. People look at the career -42, but don't see that he was +5 last year. Or that he's gone from 41.8% faceoff percentage (14th on his team in 2007-2008) to 47.6% last year (3rd on the team, behind Horcoff and Belanger.) On a team that's developed Hall, Hopkins, Eberle, and all, and he was lost in the rush.

Fantasy draft players: If there is a season this year, I'd take a long look at Gagner in the middle rounds. He'll likely be between Yakupov and Hemsky, and will be playing against the 2nd pairing of forwards defense (I expect that teams will put out their best players for Hall-Hopkins-Eberle.) Could be a prolific scorer, and given his reputation on boards such as these (for what that's worth) he'll likely be a performer.
Dude.

Nielsen and Gagner aren't even on the same planet. Nielsen is a elite as they come for 2nd line centres.

That's your problem, you only look at points. Open your eyes man. Open your spirit. There's a reason why the Oilers have been dead last with Gagner as the 2nd line centre.

Career games played don't prove anything. Please stop.

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12-29-2012, 12:53 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Dude.

Nielsen and Gagner aren't even on the same planet. Nielsen is a elite as they come for 2nd line centres.

That's your problem, you only look at points. Open your eyes man. Open your spirit. There's a reason why the Oilers have been dead last with Gagner as the 2nd line centre.

Career games played don't prove anything. Please stop.
Glad to see players can't progress past what they are as a 23 year old. But hey, yes, he did play on a team that tanked, so he's not a player, regardless of what the stats are. Hell, playing on the worst team in the league, and he's only been 4th for his draft in points per game, and 8th in goals per game? But, hey, you've looked into the magic eight ball in your parents rec room, and it came up with "Without a doubt."

I'd tell you to stop watching hockey, but clearly, you haven't been. Please, spend your time coming up with a list of players that you (and likely only you) will read, and say to yourself - there, that settles it. "Gagner will never be a player." You wont convince people who have actually watched the games, but hey, maybe you'll feel better...

I'd suggest that you either use facts, or "Please stop." But that said, feel free to come up with another arbitrary list of players that you'd prefer, and we'll happily ignore them.

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12-29-2012, 01:02 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by CREW99AW View Post
Isles want more then the 47 pts or so that Frans Nielsen brings to the 2nd line.

I think they are looking for Strome or Brock Nelson will develop into a 60 pt 2nd line center.

As for Gagner...I wouldn't be surprised if he racked up assists alongside nail.
Yep - I really like Strome, and think that he'll be a very strong player for the Isles. Edmonton's been drafting "Coke Machines," looking for a player like that, but I'm not sure that they have one in the system. Every team with a smaller centre as the first liner would like a strong 2nd centre who can play, but they're remarkably hard to find. I think that Strome will be one of them.

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