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IIHF reffing is a joke MOD WARNING: Post 144

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Old
12-28-2012, 10:25 PM
  #426
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Not really, no. I can tolerate minor physical contact, pushing, shoving, etc. I hate two things: (1) when hits lead to injuries and (2) when hits dictate the game. In other words: my ideal hockey world would consist entirely of Lidstroms and Datsyuks, not of Stevenses and Ovechkins.
I see. For me, my ideal hockey world has all the aforementioned players. To lose one type or the other would take away from the theater of it. The conflict of styles is why, IMO, Montreal vs Boston is just such an awesome rivalry for example.

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12-28-2012, 10:55 PM
  #427
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Perhaps lamp-boys who are afraid of the dark should just adjust like every other team will/has if they want to win . This smells quite like a sub-conscious plan to have a safeguard if no-lockout golden boys dont win it all. Calling out reffing already will enable you to come back and say '' I SAID REFS SCREW CANADA!''

P.S I believe Canada is very very strong favourite to win this tournament

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12-28-2012, 11:05 PM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Not really, no. I can tolerate minor physical contact, pushing, shoving, etc. I hate two things: (1) when hits lead to injuries and (2) when hits dictate the game. In other words: my ideal hockey world would consist entirely of Lidstroms and Datsyuks, not of Stevenses and Ovechkins.
I think this is a great case of be careful what you wish for. Remember when you were a kid and having cake for every meal would be the best idea ever? You want to watch an all star game.

I don't think anyone likes hits causing injuries.

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12-28-2012, 11:18 PM
  #429
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I see another analogy. Camara as driver fall asleep ( in Canadian standards of play) and Luza was first time behind driving-wheel. Who is blame in this accident?
That's a terrible analogy. Camara was driving fine and Luza started crossing the street like a cocky pedestrian without looking and got run over.

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12-28-2012, 11:49 PM
  #430
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That's a terrible analogy. Camara was driving fine and Luza started crossing the street like a cocky pedestrian without looking and got run over.
Luza had his head down with possession of the puck, Camara hit him clean with no elbow and no penalty on the play. After he was injured he got 5 and a game because of the injury, the refs even thought it was clean at the time.

Do not penalize a clean hit because the opposing player is admiring his toes instead of being aware of the play around him.

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12-28-2012, 11:58 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
I do not believe falling asleep at the wheel is illegal in Canada on it's own merit. As to his hit, considering the rules of the IIHF it's legality is surely debatable.
Falling asleep at the wheel is illegal. It's called driving without due care and attention.

The hit's legality is not debatable. If it was an illegal hit he would have been suspended.

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12-29-2012, 12:09 AM
  #432
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I am not sure I understand how people are saying that the Camara hit was clean. Yes the guy had his head down, but the initial point of contact was the head. The reason they put that rule in is to prevent these types of injuries than can not only put a player out of the game, but ruin the rest of their life. Yes it sucks, but at the end of the day you can not hit a guy in the head like that.
I watched the video several times. It looked like a clean hit to me. Camara bent his knees and hit the other guy (Luza) with his shoulder. The shoulder hit the sternum and/or right shoulder of Luza, not the head.

I am from the US and not a Canadian fan. Yes, the IIHF refs have a well deserved reputation for not being very good or consistant with their calls. This has nothing to do with different rules. There was no charging, no jumping into the players face. If the refs wanted to give out a penalty, they should have given 2 minutes to Luza's teammate for hitting Camara with his stick and then following him around the ice and yapping at him. In North America, that is called unsportsmanlike conduct. I understand why the guy was upset, but that kind of thing leads to fights. More poor IIHF officiating to allow that to happen after a clean but hard hit. They toss out the non-offending player and ignore the real but minor infraction after the whistle.

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12-29-2012, 12:43 AM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Jeez View Post
Patrik Luza with concussion, but probably not so badly one. I'm alright with it now. You know when i see something like this, reminds me worst possibly scenario can come in. Short while when match is not so important in compared man lost his healthy due few seconds when he had head down.

Anyway that's why i'm for punishment in regarding these clean but massive hits leading to concussions.
Let's say a player trips and goes flying into the goalie and his skate slices open the goalie's throat (happened before). Should that player be penalized for cutting open the goalie in what amounts to a very very serious, potentially life threatening injury? Based on what you just said, you would be in favour of that, and that's absolutely absurd.

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12-29-2012, 12:47 AM
  #434
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craigcaulks View Post
Camara wasn't punished for the act, he was punished with 5 and a game for the result. In fact, it sure seemed like the result is the on;y reason he was punished. Hockey suspensions, as I think we've all seen, take the result into consideration. You can choose to believe otherwise.
He was punished because the pansy official felt he had to do something to stick up for the fallen Slovakian player. Another on-ice official even told Camara that his hit was clean

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12-29-2012, 01:00 AM
  #435
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Perfect hit, wouldn't mind seeing a few more highlight reel hits. Not sure why this tournament is not a 4 team event. Canada USA Russia and Swe/ or another slightly less talented team. Why in all honesty are teams like Latvia, Slovaki ect in the tournament? It's bizzare.

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12-29-2012, 01:08 AM
  #436
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Originally Posted by lampshade View Post
Perfect hit, wouldn't mind seeing a few more highlight reel hits. Not sure why this tournament is not a 4 team event. Canada USA Russia and Swe/ or another slightly less talented team. Why in all honesty are teams like Latvia, Slovaki ect in the tournament? It's bizzare.
Cause it's entertaining when teams like Slovakia beat Finland to advance in quarter finals and then beat USA and end up playing for bronze. Or when Finland and Czech Republic beat USA sending them to the relegation round. It makes good stories. It's fun to cheer for the under dog.

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12-29-2012, 01:34 AM
  #437
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Cause it's entertaining when teams like Slovakia beat Finland to advance in quarter finals and then beat USA and end up playing for bronze. Or when Finland and Czech Republic beat USA sending them to the relegation round. It makes good stories. It's fun to cheer for the under dog.
Meh, this hasn't occurred frequently enough. Germany v Latvia, two teams who have 0% chance of winning ( but were able to beat Japan to make it) just basically waste time and money. As for the under dog it's lame how every year some runt from a less talented country gets the fans behind him for really no reason.

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12-29-2012, 02:00 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
I thought the Camara hit was charging and shoulder hit the head.

But I'm just a ref who actually uses the IIHF interpretations, what do I know?
It's a penalty by USA Hockey rules too, of which I am a referee.

From the casebook, the onus is on the player to avoid contact with the opponent's head. He failed to avoid contact with the head and injured the opponent. Textbook 5 and a game misconduct.

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12-29-2012, 03:05 AM
  #439
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Was it a clean hit, yes it was a clean hit, according to NHL and Junior standards.

Consider this though, what if he had paralyzed him or even worse killed him. Involuntary manslaughter would be raised. (Perhaps it wouldn't, depends)

A mothers and fathers son, boyfriend, grandson, nephew or maybe even uncle would be dead.

It's sickening to see some of you raise your arms and say, "Hey he follows the rules of NHL hockey, it's OK"

Not even going to bother to read the rest of the comments.


Last edited by Ilyeu: 12-29-2012 at 03:11 AM.
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12-29-2012, 03:29 AM
  #440
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Sure wasnt a match penalty but Scheifele launched himself into a slovakian player moments after, and then dived when he got a pat on the back. So it kind of made it even.

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12-29-2012, 03:42 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Tricia McMillan View Post
It's a penalty by USA Hockey rules too, of which I am a referee.

From the casebook, the onus is on the player to avoid contact with the opponent's head. He failed to avoid contact with the head and injured the opponent. Textbook 5 and a game misconduct.
Any contact to the head was incidental. According to what you just posted, there would be little to no contact anymore.

If you can tell me with a straight face that Camara was targeting the head then there isnt much to talk about.

The player was skating one way while looking the other to receive the puck, which is commonly called a suicide pass, of which I have been the unfortunate recipient of on occasion as a player. It is unfortunate that the player was injured, but that is the game.

If you want to talk about changing it for the sake of player safety, then you are talking about eliminating hitting altogether.

A penalty was NOT called on the play, but only assessed after the gravity of the situation was considered with the Slovakian player laying on the ice. If he had gotten right up and skated away, no penalty would have been assessed as none was called at the time.

That is matchbook referring, and at a prestigious international tournament no less. Its embarrassing.

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12-29-2012, 04:23 AM
  #442
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Originally Posted by fredligh View Post
Sure wasnt a match penalty but Scheifele launched himself into a slovakian player moments after, and then dived when he got a pat on the back. So it kind of made it even.
Scheiffele was falling on his stomach all game long.
Good that Camara didnt get any more and also pleased that Lipon got a game like he deserved even more so when he cries to the media about it.


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12-29-2012, 05:27 AM
  #443
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Not really, no. I can tolerate minor physical contact, pushing, shoving, etc. I hate two things: (1) when hits lead to injuries and (2) when hits dictate the game. In other words: my ideal hockey world would consist entirely of Lidstroms and Datsyuks, not of Stevenses and Ovechkins.
Not sure I understand in detail what you actually like and dislike. I don't like watching players getting "destroyed" and yes, I don't like hits to dictate the game, but Pavel Datsyuk is actually a player who knows how to hit. There is plenty on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CB_qC9C2nE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fuedKsOGUCw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZpBOB6h1Sc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkahlnKG6J0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ka7jZ68ovM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcoSp6sk68c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_c5bNXaVfQ

That's not what I would call "minor physical contact" or pushing/shoving/etc, and still I wouldn't want to miss it.

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12-29-2012, 05:39 AM
  #444
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This is the definition of going above and beyond what constitutes a hit for me. Camara wasn't going for the puck first, he was going for the man first, and then to get the puck as an afterthought.

I don't see the need to 'steamroll' a guy in hockey. I think it's dangerous and disrespectful to player safety. It stems from this 'old time hockey' culture that gets preached, and the faster and bigger players continue to get, it's not going to be long before we have a player who will get a serious, life altering injury, if not worse, as a result of the quest to 'steamroll' the opponent.

FWIW, I still think the initial contact is with the head, and that there should have been a suspension. Im not an expert in Biology or whatever, but I simply fail to see how a player can be knocked out as soon as he is hit if the hit doesnt connect with his head.

--------------------

On a side point, not questioning the legality of the hit, there is an issue to be raised in regards to the head up debate. I think part of it is the fact that many of these players will have never played against players who are going all out to paste them on the boards. This isn't a point for me to say how I think it's not a clean hit, but in terms of understanding why they play like they do. Most of the players on the team will never play in the NHL and only a few will taste senior international action, so to them, it's second nature to have say an extra half second to take their time over the puck. I think that's where a lot of the 'keep your head up' stuff comes into it, as they simply haven't, and won't again, play an opponent like this.

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12-29-2012, 06:35 AM
  #445
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Originally Posted by Tatanik View Post
This is the definition of going above and beyond what constitutes a hit for me. Camara wasn't going for the puck first, he was going for the man first, and then to get the puck as an afterthought.

I don't see the need to 'steamroll' a guy in hockey. I think it's dangerous and disrespectful to player safety. It stems from this 'old time hockey' culture that gets preached, and the faster and bigger players continue to get, it's not going to be long before we have a player who will get a serious, life altering injury, if not worse, as a result of the quest to 'steamroll' the opponent.

FWIW, I still think the initial contact is with the head, and that there should have been a suspension. Im not an expert in Biology or whatever, but I simply fail to see how a player can be knocked out as soon as he is hit if the hit doesnt connect with his head.

--------------------

On a side point, not questioning the legality of the hit, there is an issue to be raised in regards to the head up debate. I think part of it is the fact that many of these players will have never played against players who are going all out to paste them on the boards. This isn't a point for me to say how I think it's not a clean hit, but in terms of understanding why they play like they do. Most of the players on the team will never play in the NHL and only a few will taste senior international action, so to them, it's second nature to have say an extra half second to take their time over the puck. I think that's where a lot of the 'keep your head up' stuff comes into it, as they simply haven't, and won't again, play an opponent like this.
The very act of hitting means you are not trying to play the puck.

Standing your man up at the line, separating the man from puck etc.

Theres no such thing as a hit where the hitter tried to play the puck.

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12-29-2012, 06:41 AM
  #446
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Was it a clean hit, yes it was a clean hit, according to NHL and Junior standards.

Consider this though, what if he had paralyzed him or even worse killed him. Involuntary manslaughter would be raised. (Perhaps it wouldn't, depends)

A mothers and fathers son, boyfriend, grandson, nephew or maybe even uncle would be dead.

It's sickening to see some of you raise your arms and say, "Hey he follows the rules of NHL hockey, it's OK"

Not even going to bother to read the rest of the comments.
Over react much?? The hit was clean by any definition. Anytime a player gets hit, clean or otherwise, that player ALWAYS has the chance that they may injure themselves. It is unfortunate the kid was hurt, tell ya what, maybe his coach could instruct him not to look back at the puck for 3-4 seconds without so much as taking a look up ice to see what`s coming too. The responsibility falls on both the attacking player, and the player who may be playing the puck to at the very least, do something to try and protect themselves to a degree

The refs, especially when this tournament shifts overseas, has always been susceptible to indifferent refereeing, and after over 30 years of watching International hockey at every level, I know this, I understand this and although I don`t always like it, I accept this.

The problem that happens often is twofold

1- Canadian teams often take a while to fully grasp how "light" many calls will be and

2- Canadian teams often come with a reputation for heavy play

If Camara were on the receiving end, we`d have a ton of Canadian fans screaming suspension, and fans of other Nation`s screaming legal hit, tis the way sport has always been

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12-29-2012, 07:12 AM
  #447
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Perhaps lamp-boys who are afraid of the dark should just adjust like every other team will/has if they want to win . This smells quite like a sub-conscious plan to have a safeguard if no-lockout golden boys dont win it all. Calling out reffing already will enable you to come back and say '' I SAID REFS SCREW CANADA!''

P.S I believe Canada is very very strong favourite to win this tournament
Im sure they screw every team equally.

In my angry tirade at the beginning of this thread i made no mention of any bias in the refs decisions.

Just across the board terrible decisions worthy of a ballerina league

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12-29-2012, 07:35 AM
  #448
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Any contact to the head was incidental. According to what you just posted, there would be little to no contact anymore.

If you can tell me with a straight face that Camara was targeting the head then there isnt much to talk about.

The player was skating one way while looking the other to receive the puck, which is commonly called a suicide pass, of which I have been the unfortunate recipient of on occasion as a player. It is unfortunate that the player was injured, but that is the game.

If you want to talk about changing it for the sake of player safety, then you are talking about eliminating hitting altogether.

A penalty was NOT called on the play, but only assessed after the gravity of the situation was considered with the Slovakian player laying on the ice. If he had gotten right up and skated away, no penalty would have been assessed as none was called at the time.

That is matchbook referring, and at a prestigious international tournament no less. Its embarrassing.
There is no use of any variant of the word "targeting" in the IIHF rules, those are the NHL rules. You don't have to target the head for it to be a penalty. After watching the replay I can see Camara tucks in his elbow and lowers his shoulder so it's a good hit and clean by NHL and North American standards, however the IIHF standards are different, from the angle shown it looks like the shoulder makes contact with the head first but it is difficult to tell. The referee does not have a great angle on the hit so it is understandable that he made the call, and it happens ridiculously fast.

I am going to offer everyone some insight into the mind of a referee and I'm probably going to get lynched for applying the universally hated by all fans "game management" concept. People always forget the ref only gets one look at a hit, when it's a hard hit like that and it causes a serious injury, in the interest of game management and safety you pretty much have to call something, especially when it causes a concussion it's very easy to assume it's a hit to the head, it is just human nature. If you don't call anything, not only will the team be pissed off with you which makes your life difficult, they will also run around the rest of the game taking liberties and making dirty plays and they are probably going to hurt someone else. So it's an obvious answer to the question, what is better? One injury or more?

Furthermore I think the other official on the ice who said it was clean should be suspended from IIHF tournaments, you always back up your colleagues regardless, otherwise it makes a mockery of the game.


Last edited by Propane Nightmares: 12-29-2012 at 07:44 AM.
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12-29-2012, 07:42 AM
  #449
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Over react much?? The hit was clean by any definition. Anytime a player gets hit, clean or otherwise, that player ALWAYS has the chance that they may injure themselves. It is unfortunate the kid was hurt, tell ya what, maybe his coach could instruct him not to look back at the puck for 3-4 seconds without so much as taking a look up ice to see what`s coming too. The responsibility falls on both the attacking player, and the player who may be playing the puck to at the very least, do something to try and protect themselves to a degree

The refs, especially when this tournament shifts overseas, has always been susceptible to indifferent refereeing, and after over 30 years of watching International hockey at every level, I know this, I understand this and although I don`t always like it, I accept this.

The problem that happens often is twofold

1- Canadian teams often take a while to fully grasp how "light" many calls will be and

2- Canadian teams often come with a reputation for heavy play

If Camara were on the receiving end, we`d have a ton of Canadian fans screaming suspension, and fans of other Nation`s screaming legal hit, tis the way sport has always been
Except he did look up ice to see what was coming, watch the video again, I already posted this a few pages ago but obviously it needs saying again. In the slow motion replay he clearly turns his head and looks left, then right, then goes to play the puck. When he looks left, you can see in the view of the full ice that Camara was turning towards the boards and looks like he is going to transition, he was not forechecking in a straight line towards him.

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12-29-2012, 07:46 AM
  #450
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first i'm not banning team Canada, i wrote i'll be happy (that sounds subjective) after all day long discussion, which is senseless at all. i took it radically.
You know i have real respect to Canadian hockey skills and their love to hockey.

What i don't like is their inability to adapt themselves to other perspective in game. Can you ever go other way then, when you are losing game, crush test of opponents ? It's unfair to me. IMO
I'll answer yours, if you answer mine - Why can't you teach your kids the basic fundamentals of hockey?

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