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Johan Franzen - Third Highest Goal Scorer Of 2004 Draft

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Old
12-25-2012, 08:15 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
The problem is, you're unrealistically optimistic. You say for a team willing to spend, there are always FA's. Well, we missed out on all the big ones this past year.

The rest is just being realistic. Who can replace Datsyuk? He's a one of a kind player, top5 player in the league in just about everyone's list. That's a tall order. We just lost Lidstrom, some people consider him top1 or top2 dman of all time. Who's going to replace him? Don't point to the prospects, no one is even close to that level yet.

Yes, we're all excited with the potential that the young guys have. But make no mistake, a lot can happen. The absolute best case scenario is that they will replace these generational players that we have leaving the team soon. More likely, they'll be good but not as good. Some may even bust. Hell, they probably won't even play up, since we keep filling the roster with old reruns like Sammy/Q, and reupping players like Bert and Cleary.

An honest, realistic look at the team's future is one that says "We aren't going to be as good as we've been." There is more than enough reason to be worried.

I don't get the people that are satisfied with the team we have. We got trounced in the first round of the playoffs. I didn't see our team get stronger. I saw it get a year older and saw a defensive legend retire. I want them to win the Cup, not just make the playoffs every year. I point out the holes in the team because I want them filled. People like you seem content with early exits. That's fine if it floats your boat. I prefer the Stanley Cup.
What moves do you think would put us into cup contention? I don't think your gonna improve by trading Franzen.

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12-25-2012, 11:34 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
What moves do you think would put us into cup contention? I don't think your gonna improve by trading Franzen.
actually i would keep him in the team. i guess he just needs a spark.

season 09/10 was the first one with earlie exits. the team was to weak to compete after this for 3(maybe 4) years now.

since then we lost/replaced these top players quality/role wise:

rafalski/none (playmaker defense)
draper/darren helm (shut down expert)
holmstrom/samuelsson (45 points)
Lidstrom/none (hockey god)
Osgood/Howard +improvement
Brad Stuart/quincey (shutdown Defense) --step down
Hudler/none (maybe brunner)


additions:
ian white (dont know where to put him without lidstrom)
brendan smith (maybe a 3rd pairing defense at the moment)

so we would still have to replace rafalski, lidstrom, stuart and hudler from 2009/10 to get even in quality.
but even then we would need to improve because we weren't really good by then.

in addition to that datsyuk took a step back, so did zetta. soon we have to replace them both. i dont see ken holland replace any of these but we will figure that our.

but before i would trade franzen we would need upgrades for bert, samuelsson, quincey, white, cleary and abdelkader.
thats a lot for a gm who couldnt even land a top FA in 3 years.

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12-26-2012, 12:03 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by fimoknete View Post
actually i would keep him in the team. i guess he just needs a spark.

season 09/10 was the first one with earlie exits. the team was to weak to compete after this for 3(maybe 4) years now.

since then we lost/replaced these top players quality/role wise:

rafalski/none (playmaker defense)
draper/darren helm (shut down expert)
holmstrom/samuelsson (45 points)
Lidstrom/none (hockey god)
Osgood/Howard +improvement
Brad Stuart/quincey (shutdown Defense) --step down
Hudler/none (maybe brunner)


additions:
ian white (dont know where to put him without lidstrom)
brendan smith (maybe a 3rd pairing defense at the moment)

so we would still have to replace rafalski, lidstrom, stuart and hudler from 2009/10 to get even in quality.
but even then we would need to improve because we weren't really good by then.

in addition to that datsyuk took a step back, so did zetta. soon we have to replace them both. i dont see ken holland replace any of these but we will figure that our.

but before i would trade franzen we would need upgrades for bert, samuelsson, quincey, white, cleary and abdelkader.
thats a lot for a gm who couldnt even land a top FA in 3 years.
I don't think either Pavs or Hank took a step back last year. Z had a terrible start then finished strong andDatsyuk was competing for the scoring title before surgery. But you did make some good points onwhat we need to improve upon.

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12-26-2012, 08:01 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
The problem is, you're unrealistically optimistic. You say for a team willing to spend, there are always FA's. Well, we missed out on all the big ones this past year.

The rest is just being realistic. Who can replace Datsyuk? He's a one of a kind player, top5 player in the league in just about everyone's list. That's a tall order. We just lost Lidstrom, some people consider him top1 or top2 dman of all time. Who's going to replace him? Don't point to the prospects, no one is even close to that level yet.

Yes, we're all excited with the potential that the young guys have. But make no mistake, a lot can happen. The absolute best case scenario is that they will replace these generational players that we have leaving the team soon. More likely, they'll be good but not as good. Some may even bust. Hell, they probably won't even play up, since we keep filling the roster with old reruns like Sammy/Q, and reupping players like Bert and Cleary.

An honest, realistic look at the team's future is one that says "We aren't going to be as good as we've been." There is more than enough reason to be worried.

I don't get the people that are satisfied with the team we have. We got trounced in the first round of the playoffs. I didn't see our team get stronger. I saw it get a year older and saw a defensive legend retire. I want them to win the Cup, not just make the playoffs every year. I point out the holes in the team because I want them filled. People like you seem content with early exits. That's fine if it floats your boat. I prefer the Stanley Cup.
Top2 is a stretch and no one in their right mind would consider Lidström the best dman of all time.

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12-26-2012, 02:55 PM
  #105
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Top2 is a stretch and no one in their right mind would consider Lidström the best dman of all time.
How is top 2 a stretch? He has just as much credibility to back him up than any other defenseman.

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12-26-2012, 03:21 PM
  #106
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Last year's Lidström wasn't a TOP2 D-man of all time. That level of play from recent years is not impossible to replace. The leadership, example and experience is pretty hard to replace, but also Hank is very very good captain without any bad habits. I think we will be just fine with the next generation (Nyquist, Smith) slightly jumping in.

Trade will probably come. We know our weakness, it's at defence. Before that, we'll see an entertaining +100 points season with hazard defence and superb offense.


Last edited by Henkka: 12-26-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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12-26-2012, 03:45 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by 13 HockeyTown 40 View Post
How is top 2 a stretch? He has just as much credibility to back him up than any other defenseman.
Just based on my most topd lists and from what I've read and seen.

Lidström benefited from playing in a great system, behind great coaches, not having as tough competition as some other topdman, playing on great teams and behind great two-way C's. There's lots of talk about this on Business board. Based on what I've read from there, Lids shouldn't be on top2; I think those people are very knowledgeable and present their arguments well. And I didn't see too much of those other top dman play.

my 2 cents.

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12-26-2012, 08:06 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by EZBAKE View Post
Dude works out at the Novi Lifetime a lot when he's back living in Novi. I've seen him in the locker room a lot. You're crazy if you think they call him "the Mule" because he's a hardworker
lel, I thought it was because of that fine ass of his

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Old
12-27-2012, 12:49 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Nah pops up somewhere every now and then, it was partly a joke.
Oh gotcha.

Well, hard to say they are wrong at this point.

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12-27-2012, 05:17 AM
  #110
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Oh gotcha.

Well, hard to say they are wrong at this point.
I'm pretty confident that Bert and Sammy will prove them wrong.

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12-28-2012, 11:53 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Bench View Post
There's just no hope for me!

Merry Christmas.
You too. It's nice to see people can take a post on here with a grain of salt lately.

Edit: Flowah can argue it, He makes a good case.

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12-29-2012, 12:07 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post

Lidström benefited from playing in a great system, behind great coaches, not having as tough competition as some other topdman, playing on great teams

my 2 cents.
C'mon..Be Serious.

If you don't think Lidstrom is in the debate regarding #2 of all time....well..I don't know what to tell you.
FYI..the competition in the Stanley Cup final is ..um..pretty good normally....

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12-29-2012, 02:06 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by RaySheppard View Post
C'mon..Be Serious.

If you don't think Lidstrom is in the debate regarding #2 of all time....well..I don't know what to tell you.
FYI..the competition in the Stanley Cup final is ..um..pretty good normally....
I think he's in the debate, sure.

But arguments for Bourque are stronger imo.

The point was he played on better team than Bourque for most of he's career.

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12-29-2012, 11:08 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by RaySheppard View Post
C'mon..Be Serious.

If you don't think Lidstrom is in the debate regarding #2 of all time....well..I don't know what to tell you.
FYI..the competition in the Stanley Cup final is ..um..pretty good normally....
Couldn't bring myself to be drawn into a conversation about Lidstrom not being in the conversation for #2 all time. Just an irrational comment.

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12-29-2012, 10:14 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
I think he's in the debate, sure.

But arguments for Bourque are stronger imo.

The point was he played on better team than Bourque for most of he's career.
People still consider Brodeur to be "one of" the best. His stats (wins) indicate he is quite an amazing goalie. He benefitted from good teams, too. Doesn't mean he isn't in the mix for top goalies of all time.

*disclaimer* I don't think Brodeur is the GOAT or anything, just bringing up a similar situation. You can't ding a guy for being a part of a near dynasty - he was a key piece of it.

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12-30-2012, 02:03 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Just based on my most topd lists and from what I've read and seen.

Lidström benefited from playing in a great system, behind great coaches, not having as tough competition as some other topdman, playing on great teams and behind great two-way C's. There's lots of talk about this on Business board. Based on what I've read from there, Lids shouldn't be on top2; I think those people are very knowledgeable and present their arguments well. And I didn't see too much of those other top dman play.

my 2 cents.
Lidstrom played on great teams with some great centers. So did Doug Harvey. So did Bobby Orr. So did Ray Bourque. So did Eddie Shore. So did Denis Potvin. So did Larry Robinson. So did Red Kelly; in fact, Kelly played on great teams with great centers and AS a great center! So is there anyone I've missed who does not fit that argument?

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12-30-2012, 02:38 AM
  #117
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People still consider Brodeur to be "one of" the best. His stats (wins) indicate he is quite an amazing goalie. He benefitted from good teams, too. Doesn't mean he isn't in the mix for top goalies of all time.

*disclaimer* I don't think Brodeur is the GOAT or anything, just bringing up a similar situation. You can't ding a guy for being a part of a near dynasty - he was a key piece of it.
Yeah, one of the best but not more. I think most rank him behind Roy, Hasek, Sawchuk and so on.


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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Lidstrom played on great teams with some great centers. So did Doug Harvey. So did Bobby Orr. So did Ray Bourque. So did Eddie Shore. So did Denis Potvin. So did Larry Robinson. So did Red Kelly; in fact, Kelly played on great teams with great centers and AS a great center! So is there anyone I've missed who does not fit that argument?
Lids played basically he's whole career behind great two way centers. Bourque has great players on he's team from time to time but didn't have the same support, often being the leading scorer on he's team.

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12-31-2012, 01:11 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
Yeah, one of the best but not more. I think most rank him behind Roy, Hasek, Sawchuk and so on.




Lids played basically he's whole career behind great two way centers. Bourque has great players on he's team from time to time but didn't have the same support, often being the leading scorer on he's team.
Not buying a word of it. Point out this thread to your history forum buddies and tell them to come argue.

We'll hand them their *****.

A + player as a kid in front of Chevldae.....


Last edited by RaySheppard: 12-31-2012 at 01:18 AM.
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Old
12-31-2012, 02:00 AM
  #119
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I put Lidstrom as #2, but I am also more inclined to put Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin in front of Bourque also and that will probably anger a lot of people. So he isn't even my debate on #2.

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12-31-2012, 04:21 AM
  #120
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I put Lidstrom as #2, but I am also more inclined to put Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin in front of Bourque also and that will probably anger a lot of people. So he isn't even my debate on #2.
History of hockey forum would explode if you said that over there

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12-31-2012, 10:24 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
I put Lidstrom as #2, but I am also more inclined to put Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin in front of Bourque also and that will probably anger a lot of people. So he isn't even my debate on #2.
I thought Bourque was great, but always thought he was overrated (like Lidstrom from 205 on)

In my lifetime, I'd probably go:
Robinson, Pronger, Lidstrom, Stevens, Bourque

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12-31-2012, 06:47 PM
  #122
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Pronger really was a force and a game changer. Lidstrom had a longer, more distinguished career, but if you had to ask me who I'd put in for the championship game I'd probably have to flip a coin to decide.

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12-31-2012, 07:03 PM
  #123
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I put Lidstrom as #2, but I am also more inclined to put Larry Robinson and Denis Potvin in front of Bourque also and that will probably anger a lot of people. So he isn't even my debate on #2.
I would put Robinson ahead of Bourque as well as Leetch and at least 4-5 older players. Bourque Equal to Potvin, Bourque was A+ but not A++ or A+++

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12-31-2012, 08:55 PM
  #124
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I would put Robinson ahead of Bourque as well as Leetch and at least 4-5 older players. Bourque Equal to Potvin, Bourque was A+ but not A++ or A+++
I don't see Leetch in the same level as Bourque or Potvin.

Maybe more at the Macinis level.

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12-31-2012, 09:00 PM
  #125
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Pronger really was a force and a game changer. Lidstrom had a longer, more distinguished career, but if you had to ask me who I'd put in for the championship game I'd probably have to flip a coin to decide.
To me it's a bit like the Roy vs Hasek debate.

Roy has the great career stats, while Hasek had the better peak.

However... Lidstrom in 01-02..at his peak, was pretty dominating too... so that's not exactly a good analogy.

The reason why I put Pronger and Robinson ahead is because these guys can do everything. Play every style you might possibly want to start a playoff run.

When your ace defensemen Robinson can beat you with end-to-end rushes, slapshots and great passes or big hits... and he can punch out Dave Schultz's lights and end the Broad Street Bullies' era...
Robinson, in many ways, was like Lidstrom offensively, but with the ability to hit like a Pronger and fight like a Shanahan (not often, but when he did... he could go toe-to-toe with anyone).

I don't care much about the stats and factoring for eras and all that BS.

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