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12-28-2012, 11:26 AM
  #101
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Well that is exactly why I said IF their PP struggles, then bring him up to see if he can help. He is the only true PP QB on either roster.

If not, there are four other prospects ahead of him who deserve the call first.
Yeah ok, I can live with that. I just don't want to call him up just so we called him up and have to make room for him for no reason. It still seems silly to even have this converstation, if all the idiots could just figure out how to make a deal we would know a lot more.

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12-28-2012, 05:34 PM
  #102
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I'd give up a 5th round pick for Gonchar. Maybe a 5th round pick and a long shot prospect. In other words...I'd give up very little of value for Gonchar.

I don't know if people remember how frustrating the PP was the last season Sarge was here, but it wasn't good. I do not want to see that again.

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12-28-2012, 08:02 PM
  #103
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Not taking any side in this, but there is more to being on an NHL roster than just the minutes. Playing agaist tougher competition is one thing, but practicing with the best players in the world is an underrated bonus that certainly bolsters development. Look at how much Engelland improved over just 1 year in relation to his skill set coming in that he developed in the the AHL/ECHL.
That's not entirely true. Engelland was a guy who played several years in the AHL, so he had plenty of "pro" experience. But the thing in his case -- because each of these guys' individual cases are different -- is the effort that he put into his off-ice conditioning, training & nutrition in each of the last 2 off seasons. I know this as a personal fact, and I'm pretty sure this has been talked about publicly. This is the thing that really allowed him to make the jump from being a bubble guy to a full-time NHLer, and then obviously the experience led him to continue to become better & more consistent at that level over time.


But in Morrow's cae...

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10-12 minutes of ice time in the NHL is much better for a players development than 20-22 minutes in the A. You simply can't prepare yourself for the speed, strength and elite skill of NHL players, until you play agt them. When a young kid can show he can handle those minutes, naturally he gets more ice time as the season goes along, when injuries happen, etc. There is no question a prospect develops faster in the NHL than the A.

Once again as I said, the difference is can a young kid handle those NHL minutes? I'm confident Morrow can. I've said over and over he is an exception to the rule, because of his strength, skating and offensive skill. If he struggles, he is sent back to the A. It isn't going to "ruin" a kid to learn what he has to work on to stay in the NHL.

So if I think Morrow is an exception to the rule, obviously I believe (and have said it many times), that most prospects need to stay in the A. I don't believe Harrington (like jmelm) is strong enough to play in the NHL next season, and think he needs a year to adjust to the strength of pro players in the A.

...in Morrow's case: as was stated explicitly by Botteril in the PG article: the biggest thing for Joe Morrow is to develop and learn the DEFENSIVE side of the game, so he is not a liability for our team (whether that's WBS or the big Pens). The best thing for Joe, and the best way for him to learn that, is to work on these things again and again and again, and getting big minutes in all different types of situations is >>> than getting sheltered minutes playing in primarily only offensive situations here.


The latter would stunt his overall development (even if you think it would be good for the team or his offensive game, which neither I nor the Pens brass seem to agree with), it would not be best for his overall game or for the long-term picture. Sure, perhaps Goligoski could have helped us offensively if he played in the NHL right away, but his overall game was helped tremendously by spending time in the AHL. And if your justification is that it help Morrow adjust to stronger, faster players, you need to realize that there is already a BIG jump from the WHL to the AHL in terms of the quality of the competition -- especially this season.


Furthermore, in terms of "helping the big club", having Joe Morrow on our roster would pretty much necessitate trading or waiving BOTH of Bortuzzo and Strait, as opposed to just the latter, which I think would be a big mistake. Bortuzzo is a guy who I believe has a long-term future with this club and is clearly ready to make the jump. It would also preclude a guy like Despres from making the jump if he is clearly ready, and it's not going to do these guys or the team any good, short-term or long-term, by having any of these guys sitting in the press box.


You can continue to make your argument all you want, but regardless of whether you or others think you're right or wrong, it's EXTREMELY clear how the Pens brass themselves feel, and that's what counts. What's implicit in all your statements is that you are more right than them, when in fact they are more right than anyone on this forum.

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12-28-2012, 09:15 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post

But in Morrow's cae...
...in Morrow's case: as was stated explicitly by Botteril in the PG article: the biggest thing for Joe Morrow is to develop and learn the DEFENSIVE side of the game, so he is not a liability for our team (whether that's WBS or the big Pens). The best thing for Joe, and the best way for him to learn that, is to work on these things again and again and again, and getting big minutes in all different types of situations is >>> than getting sheltered minutes playing in primarily only offensive situations here.


The latter would stunt his overall development (even if you think it would be good for the team or his offensive game, which neither I nor the Pens brass seem to agree with), it would not be best for his overall game or for the long-term picture. Sure, perhaps Goligoski could have helped us offensively if he played in the NHL right away, but his overall game was helped tremendously by spending time in the AHL. And if your justification is that it help Morrow adjust to stronger, faster players, you need to realize that there is already a BIG jump from the WHL to the AHL in terms of the quality of the competition -- especially this season.


Furthermore, in terms of "helping the big club", having Joe Morrow on our roster would pretty much necessitate trading or waiving BOTH of Bortuzzo and Strait, as opposed to just the latter, which I think would be a big mistake. Bortuzzo is a guy who I believe has a long-term future with this club and is clearly ready to make the jump. It would also preclude a guy like Despres from making the jump if he is clearly ready, and it's not going to do these guys or the team any good, short-term or long-term, by having any of these guys sitting in the press box.


You can continue to make your argument all you want, but regardless of whether you or others think you're right or wrong, it's EXTREMELY clear how the Pens brass themselves feel, and that's what counts. What's implicit in all your statements is that you are more right than them, when in fact they are more right than anyone on this forum.
You have zero clue what the Pen's brass feel is best for Morrow based on an isolated quote.

They had no problems keeping up Despres last season, despite all of the same rhetoric you spewed about him not being ready last season. The people who said he could play in the NHL last season were right, you were wrong. If you can't admit that, not my deal.

I can rip up your opinion about Harrington being NHL ready next season, but unlike you, I assume anything can happen with a young kid. However, Harrington isn't strong enough to play in the NHL next year and I'm sure the Pens decision makers will feel the same. They obviously know more than you, right? It is quite obvious when you watch him play (except to you), despite the fact he is becoming an outstanding prospect.

And for about the eleventh time, Morrow won't see NHL ice this year because of more deserving players ahead of him, not because he can't handle those minutes.

I have zero problems with outstanding depth keeping Morrow in the A for now.

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12-29-2012, 12:13 AM
  #105
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I don't know if people remember how frustrating the PP was the last season Sarge was here, but it wasn't good. I do not want to see that again.
Just a few more days, and if you can keep this line of 'reasoning' going, then we can take (segments of) this forums' "Gonchar was a detriment to our PP in his last season" retardation into 2013 also! Wouldn't that be something.

I've spent too much bandwidth on the statistics before to no avail to do so again, but just for kicks; it makes A LOT more sense to say that Crosby is the problem for our PP, considering that it is has been good/great when he has been out, and dropped noticeably when he was coming back, both times.

When Sarge was there, our %s were always noticeably better than when he wasn't. Fact.

NB: and no, I do not think Crosby is a problem for our PP. We do however need to cater to the PP rather than Crosby, which is another way of saying that the primary player on our PP is Evgeni Malkin and the setup should reflect that.

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12-29-2012, 12:23 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
You have zero clue what the Pen's brass feel is best for Morrow
....which goes for all present, yes?

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And for about the eleventh time, Morrow won't see NHL ice this year because of more deserving players ahead of him, not because he can't handle those minutes.

I have zero problems with outstanding depth keeping Morrow in the A for now.
You can say it twelve and thirteen times also. It will usually be the case that a prospect with little/no NHL experience will be considered behind older players in the hierarchy. Unless they are truly prodigious, they won't be considered too good not to play until they actually are played.

Not that I disagree with you as such, mind. I don't.
But your argument just isn't a counter for those who feel that Morrow's skill-set by itself should earn him a trial by fire in the NHL.

There is virtually no difference between those saying that, and what you (and I) have been saying about Tangradi for a year except that Tangradi had less top6 depth to oust. Then again he wasn't given a chance there at all, which is our point.

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12-29-2012, 12:56 AM
  #107
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....which goes for all present, yes?
Obvious statement is obvious.

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You can say it twelve and thirteen times also. It will usually be the case that a prospect with little/no NHL experience will be considered behind older players in the hierarchy. Unless they are truly prodigious, they won't be considered too good not to play until they actually are played.
It has little to do with age and everything to do with quality of play. Not sure what age has to do with anything.

And Despres' quality of play in the A was sorely lacking behind several other prospects, but he was the most impressive in the NHL.

Talent is not always linear between leagues.

Quote:
Not that I disagree with you as such, mind. I don't.
But your argument just isn't a counter for those who feel that Morrow's skill-set by itself should earn him a trial by fire in the NHL.
Sure it is. There is no one on either roster who can do what he does on the PP. If you know of some hidden gem I don't, feel free to enlighten me.

If their PP struggles, there is no harm in giving him a shot to ignite it and show if he can play sheltered minutes.

Quote:
There is virtually no difference between those saying that, and what you (and I) have been saying about Tangradi for a year except that Tangradi had less top6 depth to oust. Then again he wasn't given a chance there at all, which is our point.
Just because a player isn't given a chance to prove himself, doesn't make him incapable of playing in the NHL.

If Bort and Strait didn't get hurt, we would have many people still saying Despres isn't ready for the NHL, based on his play in the A.

In fact, we had several people insisting on that last season and now they have selective memory. I'm more than happy to admit I was wrong about Despres, but I didn't blast those who felt he was ready, unlike a couple of posters in this thread who aren't coming clean.

Just find it funny.


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12-29-2012, 01:06 AM
  #108
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Talent is not always linear between leagues.
Change "talent" to "success" and I agree with everything you said.

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12-29-2012, 01:08 AM
  #109
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Change "talent" to "success" and I agree with everything you said.
I'm too lazy...

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12-29-2012, 01:22 AM
  #110
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Paul Martin lazy? If so, I'd suggest you see a doctor

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12-29-2012, 05:25 AM
  #111
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Paul Martin lazy? If so, I'd suggest you see a doctor
Morrow is ready and awesome at defense but Pouliout will be as much as I hate to say it worth the trade!!!! And I love Staal! A lot.

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12-29-2012, 06:40 AM
  #112
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Morrow is ready and awesome at defense but Pouliout will be as much as I hate to say it worth the trade!!!! And I love Staal! A lot.
I don't know what you've been watching but on most nights Morrow has been a train wreck on D in WBS. He's playing third pairing D against 3rd and 4th line AHL players and struggling. If you were to put him in the NHL now against 3rd & 4th line NHL players he would be a detriment to the team, esp in a shortened season, where a W is crucial in every game. He's got an NHL shot and NHL skating ability and that's what helps him on the man advantage but the rest of his game is not there yet. Even if there was no one in front of him more deserving of a shot with the big club he would not be ready this season. Sorry Jiggy but that's the way I see it. I'm not $hitting on the kid because I do see great potential there but he needs more time.

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12-29-2012, 07:04 AM
  #113
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Morrow is ready and awesome at defense but Pouliout will be as much as I hate to say it worth the trade!!!! And I love Staal! A lot.
Nope.

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12-29-2012, 07:06 AM
  #114
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I don't know what you've been watching but on most nights Morrow has been a train wreck on D in WBS. He's playing third pairing D against 3rd and 4th line AHL players and struggling. If you were to put him in the NHL now against 3rd & 4th line NHL players he would be a detriment to the team, esp in a shortened season, where a W is crucial in every game. He's got an NHL shot and NHL skating ability and that's what helps him on the man advantage but the rest of his game is not there yet. Even if there was no one in front of him more deserving of a shot with the big club he would not be ready this season. Sorry Jiggy but that's the way I see it. I'm not $hitting on the kid because I do see great potential there but he needs more time.
D, I respect what you are saying, I just see things differently.

It's all a moot point because of the lockout anyway. Something catastrophic would have to happen for him to see NHL ice this season and I'd prefer that doesn't come to pass.

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12-29-2012, 12:36 PM
  #115
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Just a few more days, and if you can keep this line of 'reasoning' going, then we can take (segments of) this forums' "Gonchar was a detriment to our PP in his last season" retardation into 2013 also! Wouldn't that be something.

I've spent too much bandwidth on the statistics before to no avail to do so again, but just for kicks; it makes A LOT more sense to say that Crosby is the problem for our PP, considering that it is has been good/great when he has been out, and dropped noticeably when he was coming back, both times.

When Sarge was there, our %s were always noticeably better than when he wasn't. Fact.

NB: and no, I do not think Crosby is a problem for our PP. We do however need to cater to the PP rather than Crosby, which is another way of saying that the primary player on our PP is Evgeni Malkin and the setup should reflect that.
Detriment would imply that the PP was worse with him, which I would never contend. It was better with him, but it doesn't mean that the unit was working as well or efficiently as it could. I'd still contend that, even if we did get Sarge back. We need a QB who will push the pace of the puck, not a guy who slows things down to a painful level, where he's carrying the puck while 4 guys are sitting at the opposing blueline waiting to break the zone.

With Gonchar QB'ing the powerplay, it was slow and predictable. I don't care what over analyzed statistics say. Saying the PP is better with Sarge than without him is like saying the offense is better with Geno than without. There is/was no replacement. There was no one who had any PPQB experience here when Sarge was here to fill that roll at the top point, and we were casting Geno in that role, and he never really did well at the top of the point.

He'd very slowly lug the puck up ice, we'd fail to gain the zone when he did, and it'd get cleared. Obviously no different at the current moment because we don't have a guy to lug the puck, but that's neither here nor there.


This powerplay will be at it's best, not by who is running the point, but where Sid and Geno play. Geno needs to be on a side by himself, I think. That's when it always looks best, and I think that's a large reason why the PP looked good when Sid was out...because Geno could play the whole wall.


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12-30-2012, 01:20 PM
  #116
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We need a guy who can keep plays alive at the point, gain the zone and get shots on net. Gonchar brings that.

He's better than our best option in Letang. I'm all for bringing in someone else who can improve the PP even more, but I'm not seeing too many PP QB's available.

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12-30-2012, 02:21 PM
  #117
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Guys Gonch is not getting any faster in the years since he left here. Don't assume because he's rocking in the KHL he'd be all roses here. Yes he's great on the PP but he'd be a potential liability everywhere else.

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12-30-2012, 03:39 PM
  #118
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We need a guy who can keep plays alive at the point, gain the zone and get shots on net. Gonchar brings that.

He's better than our best option in Letang. I'm all for bringing in someone else who can improve the PP even more, but I'm not seeing too many PP QB's available.
Why does anyone think a PP quarterback is a pressing issue? We were 5th in the league in the regular season without Sid last year, and 3rd in the playoffs. For the record, we were 19th in Gonchar's last season here.

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12-30-2012, 04:23 PM
  #119
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Why does anyone think a PP quarterback is a pressing issue? We were 5th in the league in the regular season without Sid last year, and 3rd in the playoffs. For the record, we were 19th in Gonchar's last season here.
not that Gonchar would have necessarily helped, but we also gave up some backbreaking shorties in the playoffs. We were certainly not the 3rd best powerplay in the playoffs no matter what the percentage says. Oh, and we lost Sullivan.

Also, I think the powerplay could be a completely overwhelming strength of this team if we had a good point shot on the blueline. As it stands, we'll probably end up putting Sid or Geno on the point. Granted, bringing in a QB puts one of Kunitz, Neal or Letang on the 2nd unit. I don't know. I would kill for one of Sid or Geno to be right handed.


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12-30-2012, 04:23 PM
  #120
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Why does anyone think a PP quarterback is a pressing issue? We were 5th in the league in the regular season without Sid last year, and 3rd in the playoffs. For the record, we were 19th in Gonchar's last season here.
1) Top pairing D-man
2) Top line winger
3) Stopgap PP point man

I don't disagree we could survive without #3. But I think Gonchar could be had for cheap for one shortened season in a 3rd pairing role.

Seeing as how top pairing D-men are the most coveted asset in the game short of #1Cs, I think we're better off letting our personnel rebound with some changes in our defensive coverage. Use our assets on finding Sid's longterm winger.

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12-30-2012, 04:42 PM
  #121
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For the record, in spite of Letang not being a natural PP quarterback, he was producing on pace to be top 5 in the league in PP production among defensemen. He's not an elite playmaker or a booming shot from the point, but his natural abilities (skating, skill, strength) overcome and get the job done.

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not that Gonchar would have necessarily helped, but we also gave up some backbreaking shorties in the playoffs. We were certainly not the 3rd best powerplay in the playoffs no matter what the percentage says. Oh, and we lost Sullivan.

Also, I think the powerplay could be a completely overwhelming strength of this team if we had a good point shot on the blueline. As it stands, we'll probably end up putting Sid or Geno on the point. Granted, bringing in a QB puts one of Kunitz, Neal or Letang on the 2nd unit. I don't know. I would kill for one of Sid or Geno to be right handed.
I do think the skilled RH shot on the left half-boards is more important - it really opened things up for us.

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1) Top pairing D-man
2) Top line winger
3) Stopgap PP point man

I don't disagree we could survive without #3. But I think Gonchar could be had for cheap for one shortened season in a 3rd pairing role.

Seeing as how top pairing D-men are the most coveted asset in the game short of #1Cs, I think we're better off letting our personnel rebound with some changes in our defensive coverage. Use our assets on finding Sid's longterm winger.
I think Gonchar could end up causing as many problems for us as he'd solve. He'll be 39 years old this playoffs, and he wasn't exactly playing Norris calibre defense when we had him 3 years ago.

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12-30-2012, 04:49 PM
  #122
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I do think the skilled RH shot on the left half-boards is more important - it really opened things up for us.
I think Letang could do well in Sullivan's spot from last year with either Sid or Geno on the point. I really didn't like the setups that included Neal on the 2nd unit at the end of last season when Sid came back.

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12-30-2012, 04:55 PM
  #123
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I think Letang could do well in Sullivan's spot from last year with either Sid or Geno on the point. I really didn't like the setups that included Neal on the 2nd unit at the end of last season when Sid came back.
It'd be worth a shot. I'd like to see the whole "who plays the right half-wall" debacle decided once and for all. We always seem so congested there, and when our PP's going poorly, that's usually why.

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12-30-2012, 05:40 PM
  #124
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Sullivan and Malkin had a hell of alot more to do with our success on the PP than Letang. Niskanen took Tanger's spot quite a bit on the 1st unit b/c he was not getting the job done.

I just see our PP going back to being a catastro**** with Sid taking Malkin's spot on the PP and Letang hesitating at the point. A team that possesses the puck as much as we do, needs a strong PP to make teams pay. Especially against Philly.

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12-30-2012, 05:41 PM
  #125
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It'd be worth a shot. I'd like to see the whole "who plays the right half-wall" debacle decided once and for all. We always seem so congested there, and when our PP's going poorly, that's usually why.
I know a lot of people will disagree... but I absolutely think it has to be Malkin, there.

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