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Wasting talent in CHL, evidence

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Old
12-27-2012, 08:34 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
doubt it, he told my bud that he's happy in NA which is a lie of course. At time his dad wouldn't talk to my bud, when he is asking how the things are going in the OHL, lol
his dad has to know truth, what a waste of talent in CHL.

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12-27-2012, 08:39 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
his dad has to know truth, what a waste of talent in CHL.
yes, especially after my friend carried over my words of wisdom, lol

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12-27-2012, 08:42 PM
  #103
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CSKA78 > Larionov

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12-27-2012, 09:11 PM
  #104
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CSKA78 > Larionov


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12-28-2012, 01:03 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Dynamo81 View Post
Larionov has an enormous chip on his shoulder, I have little respect for him as a person. As a Hockey player you can't deny his greatness. But the way he conducted himself with the Russian national team (Always creating trouble) and bringing kids who were raw products in Russia to North America is irritating. He is very egotistic and I am glad he is being pushed further and further away from Russian hockey.
How dare one say it's not okay to keep players in training camp for 11 months a year? THE INGRATE!!!

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12-28-2012, 01:39 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
How dare one say it's not okay to keep players in training camp for 11 months a year? THE INGRATE!!!
What?

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12-28-2012, 02:28 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Dynamo81 View Post
What?
he's trying to bring up the eternal training players had to endure in CSKA/NT

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12-28-2012, 03:38 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by od71 View Post
It's not an argument at all. Larionov is well known for his lopsided, extreme POV. Yes he is a legend, but it doesn't mean that he is always right. For example his most recent statement: "Now it's better to have in the KHL 12 teams, no more". Thanks God, they make him go from the board of directors of the KHL.
Larionov is a liberast (Russians know what that term means).

Larionov is more American than Russian. Larionov cares more about America than he cares about Russia. He may even hate Russia, I don't know. But I don't see any other explanation why he does his best to hurt Russian hockey and Russian prospects as much as possible. He is like a cancer to Russian hockey. I hope Larionov is banned from setting his foot on the Russian soil and his Russian passport is cancelled.

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12-28-2012, 03:48 PM
  #109
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Generally I don't care about those players who go and ruin their careers in North America. They get what they deserve. Let the idiots ruin their careers.

But it is bad for Russian national team (and for the KHL as well) because many of these players could help the Russian national team better in the future if they had remained in Russia because they would have developed into better players. This also diminishes Russia's changes of winning major tournaments in the future.

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12-28-2012, 04:08 PM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
This system MUST be broken as far as Russia is concerned
True, but what can Russia do? What can Russia do to prevent these kids from leaving too early?

This topic has been on the board for 15 years already. Even in the late 90's there was much talk about the CHL ruining Russian prospects.

There was a brief period in the early 2000's when the most of the best Russians chose to stay in Russia instead of going overseas. Players such as Malkin, Ovechkin and Semin were produced from these age groups.

But in the late 2000's and early 2010's the top prospects once again started to move to the CHL. I don't really know what happened and caused this change.

Anyway, this is Russia's problem and I don't want to blame the CHL for this. Of course the CHL teams want these players for their own league because it makes their product better. They don't care how these players developed (nor they should). They only care about their product on the ice.

It is Russia's job to prevent these kids from leaving and figure out ways to do it. For some reason these kids think it is better for them to leave early than stay in Russia. Russian hockey folks must find ways to be more convincing than foreign scouts and agents.

One possibility is to make these players to stay by force. Make them sign 5-6 year contracts with their junior teams when they are 13 or 14. If they refuse they are banned from playing competetive hockey anywhere in Russia. Not nice? True, but Russia needs to take care of its own interests for once. Those junior players who refuse to sign a long contract are free to leave to play in Canada as a 13-14 year olds. But those who sign are binded by the contract to stay in Russia until they turn 19-20.

And by the way, I love Nichushkin as a prospects and I really hope he pans out. Not only because I like him as a player, but because it would be another example of a great Russian player emerging who is raised and developed in Russia.

And while I hope players like Grigorenko and Yakupov also succeed, I fear they won't reach their full potential.


Last edited by Peter25: 12-28-2012 at 04:14 PM.
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Old
12-28-2012, 07:09 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by cska78 View Post
he's trying to bring up the eternal training players had to endure in CSKA/NT
I see but I was specifically speaking about the Russian National Team (Which is what I wrote). I guess my post was not clear enough. The way Larionov caused separate divisions in the side in the 1996 World Cup of Hockey and silenced the coach (Boris Mikhailov) is appalling and putting yourself above your team/nation. From the rift he and a few others caused Russia was significantly weakened at the 1998 Olympics, but I guess at least the players who wanted to represent Russia played.

Valeri Bure summed it up in an interview about Larionov and a few others who boycotted playing for Russia at the 1998 Olympics.
Quote:
`They're millionaires now, and they think they're big stars,''. ``How are they going to listen to a coach who makes $10,000 or $20,000? I don't think they're acting like professionals. It's not fair to the coaches.''

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12-28-2012, 09:36 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
Larionov is a liberast (Russians know what that term means).

Larionov is more American than Russian. Larionov cares more about America than he cares about Russia. He may even hate Russia, I don't know. But I don't see any other explanation why he does his best to hurt Russian hockey and Russian prospects as much as possible. He is like a cancer to Russian hockey. I hope Larionov is banned from setting his foot on the Russian soil and his Russian passport is cancelled.
I agree with you. But I'm against your last statement. He's done a lot for russian hockey too, don't forget it. I don't know about you, but I was brought up on "red machine" in 80s, I will never forget it.
Yes, now he is pro american, someone said that "he's sold his soul for jeans", may be. I feel sore about it. He must be kept away from russian hockey.
But I still think that he has contributed in the past more, than has ruined now.


Last edited by od71: 12-28-2012 at 09:47 PM.
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12-29-2012, 12:06 AM
  #113
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Kirill Kabanov's career ruined starting next fall

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=630711

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Originally Posted by Peter25 View Post
http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article...d_u18_scoring/

it was nice knowing you Kirill Kabanov. I hope you enjoy the rest of your working career making hamburgers.

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12-29-2012, 12:57 AM
  #114
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Interesting conversation so far. I disagree with the argument that the CHL/North America in general is ruining Russian prospects. First off, the prospect whether highly touted or not should consider their goal, if their goal is to play in the NHL it is smart to come over to North America but not in all cases. This case is unique because this isn't warranted for all prospects but it does help some.

The NHL and KHL are both skilled leagues but are completely different in their own way. Highly touted prospects from Europe in general find it very difficult to transition from the KHL to the NHL. The speed, the hitting, lifestyle its not meant for everyone and it goes both ways as some NHL players are finding it difficult in the KHL as well. For players who do select the CHL, its good for young players to learn English and almost get a feel of an NHL like schedule. Practice/games/overall lifestyle in North America.

For example I am very familiar with the CHL. I try to keep an eye on all the leagues but primarily the OHL. European prospects such as Landeskog, Maata, Yakupov, Zadorov, Khokhlachev, Grigorenko, Zharkov, Kuptsov, Barbashev, Hyka, Ikonen to name a few. These players have all elevated their game to a different level and became accustomed with the North American game. Most notable for the last couple drafts (i.e Yakupov and Landeskog). Both had adapted and developed their game extremely well. Could they have done this is their own country? Quite possibly but this helped them gear their game towards the North American style of play. Understand that although they can play offense in order to transition in the NHL its all about becoming a two way type player.

I do agree with the notion that NHL should give the KHL or any European league some sort of compensation if a player is drafted out of that system. Not necessarily $200,000 as stated before, but at least based on the position of the player drafted, they should receive the same compensation as CHL teams.

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12-29-2012, 01:08 AM
  #115
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Here's a Russian example of potential NHL prospects. Valeri Nichushkin and Nikita Zadorov.

Nikita Zadorov

I had the chance to watch Nikita Zadorov of the London Knights, while astonished by his huge 6'5 frame, he did have issues at first transitioning to the OHL game. His positioning still needed work, and physicality sort of lacked for a defensemen with that size. After a couple months in the system playing with a extremely talented London team on a twenty two game winning streak, it's great to see how far he's come in such a short time. He is done a solid job with his positioning, has become very physical and has a great plus/minus, leading all draft eligibles if i'm not mistaken. From being a potential first round pick, he is now in the conversation for a possible top 10/15 selection. He has done a great job with his adjustment and his game just keeps on improving.

Valeri Nichushkin

I had the opportunity to watch Valeri at a minor hockey tournament playing with the Red Army team from Moscow. He had very good size and skill and he continues to get better. He played amazing at the U17 tournament and all the CHL team were salivating at the opportunity of the selecting him in the CHL import draft. He was projected to go 1st overall in this previous summer's import draft but Valeri ultimately backed out of the draft signing a 3 year deal in Russia. Although he made this decision it has worked out very well for him so far. The scouts love that he plays a North American style game and has the impressed the Europeans scouts as well as the NHL scouts watching him at the top prospects game and World juniors tournament. Very complete game and projected like Zadorov in the top 10-15.


So this topic is subjective, while it may work for some prospect to stay home and play it may work for others to come to North America. Will both of the players still have trouble transitioning from their leagues to the NHL, possibly, but its just a testament to show that if you work hard you will be rewarded.

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12-29-2012, 01:22 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by NHL Fanatic View Post
I do agree with the notion that NHL should give the KHL or any European league some sort of compensation if a player is drafted out of that system. Not necessarily $200,000 as stated before, but at least based on the position of the player drafted, they should receive the same compensation as CHL teams.
Wait, so CHL teams do receive compensation? What is it?

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12-29-2012, 07:43 AM
  #117
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Last edited by vorky: 12-29-2012 at 10:30 AM.
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12-29-2012, 10:30 AM
  #118
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There is an argument that russian guy must play CHL to learn defensive play. I talked to VHL player and he told that VHL is defensive league, a lot of tactics etc. So, yes, Zadorov would not make mistake if stayed.

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12-29-2012, 10:55 AM
  #119
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i just believe one thing being overlooked here is that some prospects are doomed to fail regardless of where they play, the nhl and khl are the best of the best and if you dont make it your a **** up, but realistically your still a good hockey player you just didnt have what it takes to get over that hump

its not like russians are doomed to fail when they come to the chl, i mean jeesh look at how many chl guys never make it anywhere. they always tell people if you make it to the show your in a very small percentile group

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12-29-2012, 02:20 PM
  #120
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Wait, so CHL teams do receive compensation? What is it?
Not sure the exact figure. But CHL teams do receive compensation for kids drafted into the NHL, depending on where they were drafted.

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12-29-2012, 10:44 PM
  #121
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Although not exactly CHL related but more staying in the KHL and transitioning to the NHL, Anyone read Ovechkin's interview on Kuznetsov?

Ovechkin's interview in Russian
http://www.sports.ru/tribuna/blogs/prosport/403143.html

English Translation

Quote:
You were talking [Kuznetsov] into going to the NHL, to Washington back then [at Kuznetsov's wedding in Chelyabinsk], right?

What do you mean by “talking into”? I just told him it’d be better for him to go to the NHL, that he’s awaited there. And that his skill level will grow faster there.

Did you understand his choice to stay with Traktor?

No.

Did you tell him that?

I think he knows it.

Did you talk to him afterwards?

Of course. I told him how I see the situation. It’s his choice, we have good, friendly relations, but again, I didn’t understand. I think he’s outgrown the KHL level and needs to move on.

Was Ilya Bryzgalov right when he called out young [Russian] players who choose the KHL [over the AHL], where they basically sell their ambitions for money?

He was right in some situations; he was wrong in some situations. There are different cases. Talking about Kuzya, he should’ve gone to America. Even if it hadn’t worked out, he’d quietly come back to Russia and have the same role and the same money that was available before. I think he’ll understand it in a year. He’ll understand that it is time to go to the NHL, but he’ll have a year left on his deal with Traktor.

Will a year be enough to understand it?

I think he’ll understand it even earlier.

In 2005 you were close to signing a contract with Avangard. Would that have slowed down your growth much?

I signed a contract with Omsk and could’ve stayed there for two years and made some big bucks. But I risked that and went to Washington not even knowing what their team was like. That’s how I achieved everything I have. It was the right move for me. My close ones were for me staying in Russia. Of course, money is a huge factor. But I decided that I had to go. And I didn’t listen to anybody – parents, agents I had then, coaches.

I can understand Kuznetsov. He has injuries by 20. Yet he hasn’t earned much money by playing hockey. Now in Russia he’s got the first contract that will take care of his family for years to come.

I’m not denying that going to the NHL is a risk.

Did you have the same situation?

Yes. If you just want to go forward, want to be known around the world, then you sure have to go [the NHL]. You’ll have to work hard there to get a contract.
I think it would be better for Kuznetsov to pursue the NHL in the 2013-14 season but his contract with Traktor expires at the end of the 2014-14 season. He did the right thing staying in the KHL so far, going too early and failing in the NHL could have back fired on his career in the KHL, just look at the young Russians who failed in the NHL and are not even good in the KHL it was a great decision for his game and the future of his family. I do think staying in the KHL until 2014 is too long, or I am too eager. I have always stressed 20-22 is a good age to try for the NHL, so I guess he will join when he is 22.

Might have a read of Bryzgalov's interview to try figure out what Ovechkin agreed and disagreed on

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12-29-2012, 11:09 PM
  #122
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Might have a read of Bryzgalov's interview to try figure out what Ovechkin agreed and disagreed on
Do you have a link for that, and is it in English?

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12-29-2012, 11:30 PM
  #123
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Do you have a link for that, and is it in English?
It's in Russian (I started a thread on it just now in the KHL section with the link). I can translate it for you at a later time if you want?

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12-30-2012, 04:03 AM
  #124
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Kuznestov made the best decision he could. If you are a good player you have no problem to make NHL roster at 22 or 28 years. No problem.

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12-30-2012, 04:15 AM
  #125
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Dynamo81

Kuznestov made the best decision he could. If you are a good player you have no problem to make NHL roster at 22 or 28 years. No problem.
Well you may be more willing to change/improve your game at 22 to make it to the NHL. At 28 you just think Stanley isn't worth not being a star and come back to your cushy KHL job.

Plus you may have a family and so on at 28. It all makes the transition harder.

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