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Marcel Dionne vs. Teemu Selanne

View Poll Results: Which player was better?
Marcel Dionne 50 58.14%
Teemu Selanne 36 41.86%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-28-2012, 08:07 PM
  #51
Dark Shadows
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
I can't speak from knowledge of any of the other teams, but the Sedin/Naslund era Canucks first had Ed Jovanovski (who was boneheaded on D but a great puck mover) and Alex Edler (similar to Jovanovski but slightly better and more consistent), each better at puck moving than Dave Ellett.

Still, if any of those teams had a Paul Coffey or a Larry Murphy or a Phil Housley, they'd probably score many more points than they did without those PMDs. Those are examples of franchises succeeding despite having an elite PMD, not because of it. Do you think the Oilers or Penguins would have scored as much without Coffey? Senators without Karlsson?

Do you not think Marcel Dionne eclipses 2000 points if he has Brad Park wheeling the play behind him for a decade?
Dionne did have Larry Murphy for the first 3 years of Murphy's career. Murphy scored some of his best totals in those years and Dionne scored around the same as he did with Doug Halward.

Personally think if Dionne played on a team with coaching that made him more of a team player, his totals would drop a bit, but his success would have gone up. I still remember when a reporter asked him "of your 700 goals, how many would you give up for a Stanley cup?", and he replied "probably none of them". The reporter was speechless.

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12-28-2012, 08:25 PM
  #52
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Marcel Dionne

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Originally Posted by Dark Shadows View Post
Dionne did have Larry Murphy for the first 3 years of Murphy's career. Murphy scored some of his best totals in those years and Dionne scored around the same as he did with Doug Halward.

Personally think if Dionne played on a team with coaching that made him more of a team player, his totals would drop a bit, but his success would have gone up. I still remember when a reporter asked him "of your 700 goals, how many would you give up for a Stanley cup?", and he replied "probably none of them". The reporter was speechless.
Describes Marcel Dionne very well. The only missing question was "How many playoff appearances would Dionne give up to score 900 regular season goals?"

Dionne went to LA, a well coached defensive team after the 1974-75 season and he never bought in.

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12-28-2012, 09:14 PM
  #53
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Regardless

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Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
Oh come on.

1) Ellett played in the 1980s
2) Jovanovski had many injury shortened seasons
3) Edler is in his mid-20s
Regardless, Ellett wound up 7th in Dman assists in 1987-88, his best season:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...der_by=assists

Edler's best is 10th in 2011-12, Jovanovski's is 6th in 2002-03. Both Ellett and Jovanovski missed games in their best season so that is more or less a wash.

Ellett had four such seasons in the nineties.

Regardless the Canucks have had a balanced first pass group of defensemen since the Sedins entered the league. Throw in the players like Ehrhoff, Bieksa, Salo when healthy, and other transient defensemen who can contribute a first pass from the 5th/6th defenseman slot and the team will score, which is all that matters.

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12-29-2012, 12:21 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by Regal View Post
How is Olympic scoring a sign of bringing things outside of scoring?
Try not to miss the point because you're hung up on the wording. Big Phil didn't touch upon Selanne's elevated play in international hockey - which may be attributed to personal values. I'd say that a higher drive in a Finland jersey counts as an intangible - much as I would say that a higher drive in a Stanley Cup playoff scenario would count as an intangible - they're just not the daily intangibles that perhaps you and Big Phil had in mind. Either way, it was an oversight not to mention it in a paragraph deriding his playoff performances prior to the lockout (both Olympic tournaments he led in scoring came prior to that first post-lockout playoff game). And it wasn't just offense either; he got vicious in 2006.

His international portfolio is strong enough that if he was not an NHL player for the last 20 years, his career could still be romanticized into a strong position on lists.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I mean, Selanne was never neck and neck with the Art Ross winner, not even once.
He was in 1997-98, the season he got injured at one of the Olympics he led in scoring while he was the NHL's scoring leader. The only reason he didn't finish second overall (in what would have been the second of three-consecutive 2nd place finishes) is because once his team was eliminated from playoff contention, he sat out the rest of the season with the injuries that had been nagging him (Craig Ludwig tagged him in the infamous Anaheim/Dallas game). He still finished the season as the leader in even-strength scoring, despite Jagr widening the gap overall and Forsberg, Gretzky, and company leapfrogging him.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Dionne still racked up 84 points in 1986-'87 at 35 years old. The guy had 126 points two years earlier. It isn't that Selanne doesn't have longevity either, because he does but I think even with his Olympic runs (no Gold medals) he still falls short behind Dionne.
I love how you throw in "no Gold Medals" as if that counts for anything. He's Finnish. And Dionne's statistics at 35 (84 points; 17th) aren't more impressive than Selanne's at 35 (90 points; 13th), 36 (94 points; 11th), or 40 (80 points in 73 games; 8th).

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12-29-2012, 01:19 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
He was in 1997-98, the season he got injured at one of the Olympics he led in scoring while he was the NHL's scoring leader. The only reason he didn't finish second overall (in what would have been the second of three-consecutive 2nd place finishes) is because once his team was eliminated from playoff contention, he sat out the rest of the season with the injuries that had been nagging him (Craig Ludwig tagged him in the infamous Anaheim/Dallas game). He still finished the season as the leader in even-strength scoring, despite Jagr widening the gap overall and Forsberg, Gretzky, and company leapfrogging him.
I think this was the time when Jagr started to seperate himself from the rest of the pack. He outpointed Selanne by 16 points and his PPG was 1.32 while Selanne's was 1.18. Selanne was close, and he had other years like that in 1997 and 1999 but I think Dionne had more years like that and in those years he had a higher ceiling than Selanne. Selanne from 1996-'99 is not as good as Dionne from 1978-'81. Throw in the fact that Dionne has other years very close to those while Selanne doesn't really and I think we can see a clear seperation on career value, in my opinion

Quote:
I love how you throw in "no Gold Medals" as if that counts for anything. He's Finnish. And Dionne's statistics at 35 (84 points; 17th) aren't more impressive than Selanne's at 35 (90 points; 13th), 36 (94 points; 11th), or 40 (80 points in 73 games; 8th).
I wouldn't get too hung up on it, we are talking about a small sample size of international play here. It isn't a dealbreaker in the Selanne vs. Dionne debate. Selanne did wonderful internationally, I won't deny that, but even someone who did better than him overall like Sundin who also captained a Gold Medal winning team (at Selanne's expense) isn't going to overtake a lot of his contemporaries because of his international pedigree. It helps, but it won't elevate Sundin over Sakic either, I am just saying.

And Selanne did have a nice resurgence, I included his point finishes in the chart I did a few posts up. It still falls well short of the offense Dionne brought to the table. The gap is just too big, Selanne was not quite in Marcel Dionne's neighbourhood as a player.

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12-29-2012, 01:50 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I think this was the time when Jagr started to seperate himself from the rest of the pack. He outpointed Selanne by 16 points and his PPG was 1.32 while Selanne's was 1.18. Selanne was close, and he had other years like that in 1997 and 1999 but I think Dionne had more years like that and in those years he had a higher ceiling than Selanne. Selanne from 1996-'99 is not as good as Dionne from 1978-'81. Throw in the fact that Dionne has other years very close to those while Selanne doesn't really and I think we can see a clear seperation on career value, in my opinion
Dionne may have been better from '79 to '81 than Selanne was from '97 to '99, but if he was it was by a very slim margin. I don't think it was a clear difference as the hardware might suggest. I also don't think Selanne had much more of a drop off from his peak to his prime years than Dionne did. Dionne may have the slightest of edges in peak and (extended/continuous) prime, while Selanne has slight edges in career and playoff/international IMO. It's about even from everything I can see, although the differences in eras may create the illusion that Dionne was significantly better.

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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I wouldn't get too hung up on it, we are talking about a small sample size of international play here. It isn't a dealbreaker in the Selanne vs. Dionne debate. Selanne did wonderful internationally, I won't deny that, but even someone who did better than him overall like Sundin who also captained a Gold Medal winning team (at Selanne's expense) isn't going to overtake a lot of his contemporaries because of his international pedigree. It helps, but it won't elevate Sundin over Sakic either, I am just saying.
Those are two different situations. Dionne and Selanne were basically even offensively, although I'm not saying Selanne's playoff/international record was so strong as to make him clearly better. OTOH, even though Sundin was quite durable (more than Sakic in general), Sakic's production was still roughly 20% better than Sundin when comparing their peaks and primes. Sundin's international play doesn't even overcome Sakic's better playoff performance, let alone his clear, substantial edge in regular season production.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
And Selanne did have a nice resurgence, I included his point finishes in the chart I did a few posts up. It still falls well short of the offense Dionne brought to the table. The gap is just too big, Selanne was not quite in Marcel Dionne's neighbourhood as a player.
The gaps is much more due to era (almost all Canadians in Dionne's era, and some of those in WHA), not Dionne being way better than Selanne IMO.

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Old
12-29-2012, 02:13 AM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Dionne may have been better from '79 to '81 than Selanne was from '97 to '99, but if he was it was by a very slim margin. I don't think it was a clear difference as the hardware might suggest. I also don't think Selanne had much more of a drop off from his peak to his prime years than Dionne did. Dionne may have the slightest of edges in peak and (extended/continuous) prime, while Selanne has slight edges in career and playoff/international IMO. It's about even from everything I can see, although the differences in eras may create the illusion that Dionne was significantly better.
Well like I said, Dionne really didn't stop scoring his whole career. Selanne did. I don't think Selanne had that offensive arsenal in his prime that Dionne did. Dionne was more of a threat with the puck on his stick than Selanne. He could score more or less as good as Selanne and was a better playmaker who elevated his teammates to greater heights than they should have been. Dionne could beat you in more ways than Selanne could. This isn't any disrespect to Selanne but a closer comparison for Selanne is Perreault. I am not sure what you mean by them being "close" with extended peak years. Selanne has 10 years in the top 20 in scoring. Dionne had 8 years in the top "10" in scoring. That's quite a difference to me.

Quote:
The gaps is much more due to era (almost all Canadians in Dionne's era, and some of those in WHA), not Dionne being way better than Selanne IMO.
I really don't think the fact that the NHL was mostly Canadian had anything to do with it at all. You look at the top end names Dionne was competing against and it gets thrown out the window. And the WHA was more of a case in 1972 or 1973. By the mid 1970s you had the Robbie Ftoreks and the Marc Tardifs of the NHL over in the WHA. I can't think of a single player (save Hull in 1972) that would have outpointed Dionne anyway when he was racking up those 120+ point years that was in the WHA that could have competed with him.

Anyway, if we compare the names each player faced at the top, it is very even with top shelf talent. Dionne had a young Wayne Gretzky take another Art Ross away from him, I don't know how it gets any better than that.

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12-29-2012, 11:24 AM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Well like I said, Dionne really didn't stop scoring his whole career. Selanne did. I don't think Selanne had that offensive arsenal in his prime that Dionne did. Dionne was more of a threat with the puck on his stick than Selanne. He could score more or less as good as Selanne and was a better playmaker who elevated his teammates to greater heights than they should have been. Dionne could beat you in more ways than Selanne could. This isn't any disrespect to Selanne but a closer comparison for Selanne is Perreault. I am not sure what you mean by them being "close" with extended peak years. Selanne has 10 years in the top 20 in scoring. Dionne had 8 years in the top "10" in scoring. That's quite a difference to me.
Didn't you recently criticize Dionne for not ever winning a 7 game series? And now you are saying he elevated his teammates to a much higher level than Selanne did his?

You think he was about as good of a goal-scorer as Selanne? Selanne led in goals 3 times. Look at how he did vs. Canadian players:

'93: Selanne 76, Lemieux 69, Robitaille 63, Yzerman 58
'95: 10 above him
'96: 8 above him (9 if you count Hull)
'97: Selanne 51, Lemieux 50, Shanahan 47, Kariya 44
'98: Selanne 52, Nieuwendyk 39, Brind'Amour 36
'99: Selanne 47, Sakic 41, Lindros 40, Fleury 40, Kariya 39, Robitaille 39
'00: 5 above him (incl. Nolan)
'06: 4 above him (incl. Heatley)
'07: Lecavalier 52, Heatley 50, Selanne 48, St. Louis 43

Selanne's playmaking is underrated, although he clearly wasn't as good as Dionne in that area. His finishes vs. Canadians:

'96: 5 above him
'97: 8 above him
'99: Kariya 62, Selanne 60, Sakic 55
'00: Recchi, Oates, Sakic, Selanne
'11: 4 above him

Now as a point scorer, you don't think he's in Dionne's class, but rather more similar to Perreault? Really? So competition makes no difference, and Selanne was about as good of a point scorer as a player who in his three best seasons beat Pierre Larouche by 2 points ('76), tied Tim Young ('77), and finished 1 point ahead of Mike Rogers ('80)? You really think that's the same as losing Rosses to Lemieux and Jagr? Or even remotely close?

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12-29-2012, 11:56 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
'98: Selanne 52, Nieuwendyk 39, Brind'Amour 36
So if his Olympic injury had put him on the shelf for the season, his 41 Goals in 56 Games at the time would've still been higher than any Canadian player in the year? Not bad.

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12-29-2012, 02:40 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Didn't you recently criticize Dionne for not ever winning a 7 game series? And now you are saying he elevated his teammates to a much higher level than Selanne did his?

You think he was about as good of a goal-scorer as Selanne? Selanne led in goals 3 times. Look at how he did vs. Canadian players:

'93: Selanne 76, Lemieux 69, Robitaille 63, Yzerman 58
'95: 10 above him
'96: 8 above him (9 if you count Hull)
'97: Selanne 51, Lemieux 50, Shanahan 47, Kariya 44
'98: Selanne 52, Nieuwendyk 39, Brind'Amour 36
'99: Selanne 47, Sakic 41, Lindros 40, Fleury 40, Kariya 39, Robitaille 39
'00: 5 above him (incl. Nolan)
'06: 4 above him (incl. Heatley)
'07: Lecavalier 52, Heatley 50, Selanne 48, St. Louis 43

Selanne's playmaking is underrated, although he clearly wasn't as good as Dionne in that area. His finishes vs. Canadians:

'96: 5 above him
'97: 8 above him
'99: Kariya 62, Selanne 60, Sakic 55
'00: Recchi, Oates, Sakic, Selanne
'11: 4 above him

Now as a point scorer, you don't think he's in Dionne's class, but rather more similar to Perreault? Really? So competition makes no difference, and Selanne was about as good of a point scorer as a player who in his three best seasons beat Pierre Larouche by 2 points ('76), tied Tim Young ('77), and finished 1 point ahead of Mike Rogers ('80)? You really think that's the same as losing Rosses to Lemieux and Jagr? Or even remotely close?
I can't force you to stop, but you really ought to stop the whole "Best finishes against Canadians" train of thought, it goes nowhere. Selanne and Dionne both had the NHL to play in as the best league in the world. Look at each of their top talent and tell me there aren't similarities. That's really all you have to do.

Yes, I do criticize Dionne for never winning a 7 game playoff series. We weren't talking about his dismal playoff record though when we were talking about elevating their teammates. It is obvious that Dionne elevated Simmer and Taylor's play. Not that they weren't fine players, but there is no doubt who the cream of the crop was on the Triple Crown line. Simmer did nothing until he teamed up with Dionne. Taylor as well clearly benefitted from Dionne. That's all.

Yeah the Perreault vs. Selanne comparison makes more sense than Dionne because overall Selanne is closer to Perreault than Dionne. There is a gap between Dionne and Perreault. In between somewhere is Selanne. He actually probably is favoured in an argument over Perreault, while he isn't with Dionne.

Add in all the stats with each player and throw in an impressive playoff resume for Perreault combined with an impressive international career and it actually is a nice comparison. Dionne's offense is just simply too hard to overcome.

As for goals, yeah there isn't a huge difference at all, while Dionne is noticeably the better playmaker.

Goals:
Dionne - 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8, 9, 10
Selanne - 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 10

Dionne finished in the top 5 more times. Selanne led the NHL three times, which is impressive of course. Dionne lost out to Bossy twice and had Lafleur there as well and then eventually Gretzky.

Look, Dionne just benefits from constantly racking up points year after year. He lives and dies with this method and if he is compared to a player that is similar to him that wasn't great defensively, not overly physical, not a legendary playoff performer, then a guy like Dionne is almost always going to win a battle like this because few players can match his offense in NHL history, and Selanne isn't one of them.

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12-29-2012, 05:59 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I can't force you to stop, but you really ought to stop the whole "Best finishes against Canadians" train of thought, it goes nowhere. Selanne and Dionne both had the NHL to play in as the best league in the world. Look at each of their top talent and tell me there aren't similarities. That's really all you have to do.

Yes, I do criticize Dionne for never winning a 7 game playoff series. We weren't talking about his dismal playoff record though when we were talking about elevating their teammates. It is obvious that Dionne elevated Simmer and Taylor's play. Not that they weren't fine players, but there is no doubt who the cream of the crop was on the Triple Crown line. Simmer did nothing until he teamed up with Dionne. Taylor as well clearly benefitted from Dionne. That's all.

Yeah the Perreault vs. Selanne comparison makes more sense than Dionne because overall Selanne is closer to Perreault than Dionne. There is a gap between Dionne and Perreault. In between somewhere is Selanne. He actually probably is favoured in an argument over Perreault, while he isn't with Dionne.

Add in all the stats with each player and throw in an impressive playoff resume for Perreault combined with an impressive international career and it actually is a nice comparison. Dionne's offense is just simply too hard to overcome.

As for goals, yeah there isn't a huge difference at all, while Dionne is noticeably the better playmaker.

Goals:
Dionne - 2, 2, 3, 4, 5, 5, 8, 9, 10
Selanne - 1, 1, 1, 2, 3, 10

Dionne finished in the top 5 more times. Selanne led the NHL three times, which is impressive of course. Dionne lost out to Bossy twice and had Lafleur there as well and then eventually Gretzky.

Look, Dionne just benefits from constantly racking up points year after year. He lives and dies with this method and if he is compared to a player that is similar to him that wasn't great defensively, not overly physical, not a legendary playoff performer, then a guy like Dionne is almost always going to win a battle like this because few players can match his offense in NHL history, and Selanne isn't one of them.
Best average adjusted point seasons:

PLAYER Top3 T5 T8 T10 T12
======================
Dionne 117 115 106 102 98
Selanne 114 108 102 99 95
Perreault 96 92 87 84 81

Career adjusted numbers (goals, points, plus-minus):
====================
Dionne 623, 1528, +384
Selanne 705, 1489, +365
Perreault 453, 1186, -51

I can understand picking Dionne over Selanne, by a slim margin, but to pretend Selanne wasn't even close and to say he's as close to Perreault as he is to Dionne... that's just plain wrong.

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12-29-2012, 06:02 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Best average adjusted point seasons:

PLAYER Top3 T5 T8 T10 T12
======================
Dionne 117 115 106 102 98
Selanne 114 108 102 99 95
Perreault 96 92 87 84 81

Career adjusted numbers (goals, points, plus-minus):
====================
Dionne 623, 1528, +384
Selanne 705, 1489, +365
Perreault 453, 1186, -51

I can understand picking Dionne over Selanne, by a slim margin, but to pretend Selanne wasn't even close and to say he's as close to Perreault as he is to Dionne... that's just plain wrong.
I'm finding myself agreeing with you that Selanne is fairly close to Dionne (I haven't voted yet in the poll for a reason), but these stats don't take into account points that Perreault lost playing in the smaller rink in Buffalo, or play in clutch situations (international and playoffs).

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12-29-2012, 06:16 PM
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I'm finding myself agreeing with you that Selanne is fairly close to Dionne (I haven't voted yet in the poll for a reason), but these stats don't take into account points that Perreault lost playing in the smaller rink in Buffalo, or play in clutch situations (international and playoffs).
Phil was basically saying that Selanne was more comparable offensively to Perreault than Dionne, which is absurd. Dionne and Selanne, along with Thornton, are probably the most underperforming superstars in the playoffs (at least since expansion), and neither was much for defense, so I understand that Perreault has the edge in those areas. Offensively, the minimal edge Dionne has in adjusted numbers is likely offset by it being in the 70s for first liners to score adjusted points (although that's balanced in part by it being more difficult in the 80s) and Selanne being a better goal scorer.

I don't understand how Perreault lost points by playing in a smaller rink. Do you mean how it affected the actual games or was there some issue with the scorekeeper?

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12-29-2012, 07:06 PM
  #64
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Smaller Rinks

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Phil was basically saying that Selanne was more comparable offensively to Perreault than Dionne, which is absurd. Dionne and Selanne, along with Thornton, are probably the most underperforming superstars in the playoffs (at least since expansion), and neither was much for defense, so I understand that Perreault has the edge in those areas. Offensively, the minimal edge Dionne has in adjusted numbers is likely offset by it being in the 70s for first liners to score adjusted points (although that's balanced in part by it being more difficult in the 80s) and Selanne being a better goal scorer.

I don't understand how Perreault lost points by playing in a smaller rink. Do you mean how it affected the actual games or was there some issue with the scorekeeper?
Smaller rinks were a disadvantage to players whose game was built on skating. Smaller rinks featured upwards of 800sq feet of playing surface so it was easier to cover players.

Extrapolate to the difference between a standard NHL rink and the standard international rink. Or watch WJC games in Europe - this years to tournaments held in Canada. Speed and puck movement, skill is much more evident this year in Ufa.

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12-29-2012, 10:40 PM
  #65
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Phil was basically saying that Selanne was more comparable offensively to Perreault than Dionne, which is absurd. Dionne and Selanne, along with Thornton, are probably the most underperforming superstars in the playoffs (at least since expansion), and neither was much for defense, so I understand that Perreault has the edge in those areas. Offensively, the minimal edge Dionne has in adjusted numbers is likely offset by it being in the 70s for first liners to score adjusted points (although that's balanced in part by it being more difficult in the 80s) and Selanne being a better goal scorer.

I don't understand how Perreault lost points by playing in a smaller rink. Do you mean how it affected the actual games or was there some issue with the scorekeeper?
I said as overall players you should do a comparison with Perreault and Selanne, not necessarily offensively, everything tied in one. Selanne compares better to the likes of Ratelle and Perreault rather than Dionne, I mean, there is just TOO much there for Dionne no matter how it gets spun, I don't know what else to say. The adjusted stats are just cop outs in my opinion. The stats, the comparison to his peers, the scoring finishes and the simple eye test should make this a clear advantage for Dionne. You know yourself that a modern day player is going to win 100% of the time when you use adjusted stats, let's face it, an older player in a higher scoring era loses every time so adjusted stats are moot points in my opinion.

Dionne was a more balanced threat out there on the ice. He was more dangerous than Selanne.

Hart voting:
Dionne - 2, 3, 3, 6, 8, 9
Selanne - 3, 5, 5, 6, 9

I'll give Teemu some credit, the guy had some damn good years, he really did. But Dionne just simply had MORE of those great years and he beats him in almost every category imaginable here.


Last edited by Big Phil: 12-29-2012 at 11:15 PM.
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12-30-2012, 12:34 AM
  #66
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Dionne did have Larry Murphy for the first 3 years of Murphy's career. Murphy scored some of his best totals in those years and Dionne scored around the same as he did with Doug Halward.

Personally think if Dionne played on a team with coaching that made him more of a team player, his totals would drop a bit, but his success would have gone up. I still remember when a reporter asked him "of your 700 goals, how many would you give up for a Stanley cup?", and he replied "probably none of them". The reporter was speechless.
So the 9 million other guys who give the standard textbook answer because it's expected are doing anything better?

Maybe Marcel is a realist and doesn't play hypothetical games.

I have heard him inter viewed several times (long interviews and chats) and he seems like an okay guy.

Dionne was already a great scorer well before he played with Larry Murphy as well.


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12-30-2012, 12:44 AM
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Smaller rinks were a disadvantage to players whose game was built on skating. Smaller rinks featured upwards of 800sq feet of playing surface so it was easier to cover players.

Extrapolate to the difference between a standard NHL rink and the standard international rink. Or watch WJC games in Europe - this years to tournaments held in Canada. Speed and puck movement, skill is much more evident this year in Ufa.
Thanks, I can see how that could affect his game to some degree. It would be interesting to see Perreault's home/road splits compared to his contemporaries. Which other rinks were not standard size? Didn't Boston used to have a smaller rink? I wonder if that was another factor that helped Espo. When did these rinks become standard size?

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12-30-2012, 03:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
So the 9 million other guys who give the standard textbook answer because it's expected are doing anything better?

Maybe Marcel is a realist and doesn't play hypothetical games.

I have heard him inter viewed several times (long interviews and chats) and he seems like an okay guy.

Dionne was already a great scorer well before he played with Larry Murphy as well.
I know. The poster I replied to commented that Dionne would have scored a ton more if he had a proper offensive defenseman like Coffey, Murphy or Housley behind him. I merely pointed out that he did have Murphy for a short while and it did him no better than Doug Halward

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12-30-2012, 05:34 AM
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Small Rinks

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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Thanks, I can see how that could affect his game to some degree. It would be interesting to see Perreault's home/road splits compared to his contemporaries. Which other rinks were not standard size? Didn't Boston used to have a smaller rink? I wonder if that was another factor that helped Espo. When did these rinks become standard size?
Smaller rinks = Boston, Buffalo, Chicago. When the new rinks were built in these cities they were regulation size.

Basic issue is the constant change from home to road games. On offence the gaps between the players are reduced on a smaller rink, less open ice, less execution time.

Esposito was less of a defensive liability on a smaller rink. His skating was less of an issue.

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12-30-2012, 07:31 AM
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Dionne did have Larry Murphy for the first 3 years of Murphy's career. Murphy scored some of his best totals in those years and Dionne scored around the same as he did with Doug Halward.

Personally think if Dionne played on a team with coaching that made him more of a team player, his totals would drop a bit, but his success would have gone up. I still remember when a reporter asked him "of your 700 goals, how many would you give up for a Stanley cup?", and he replied "probably none of them". The reporter was speechless.
Do you have a source for that? I find it hard to believe he would say something like that. I searched around google and it lead me back to your post. I'd be astonished if he really said that. If he really did, I just lost all my respect for Marcel Dionne as a hockey player.

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12-30-2012, 08:41 AM
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So the 9 million other guys who give the standard textbook answer because it's expected are doing anything better?
I agree with this.
A stupid interview question deserves an even stupider answer.

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12-30-2012, 08:59 AM
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Thisclose but Marcel Dionne.

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12-30-2012, 09:20 AM
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Do you have a source for that? I find it hard to believe he would say something like that. I searched around google and it lead me back to your post. I'd be astonished if he really said that. If he really did, I just lost all my respect for Marcel Dionne as a hockey player.
I don't think Marcel didn't want to win. He might have been proud of his career accomplishments though which might explain the answer. I literally asked Marcel once why he feels the Kings never won a Cup and he said rather quickly "the owners." He didn't hesitate. The Kings management didn't provide him with much of a chance to win either.

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12-30-2012, 10:31 AM
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Look at each of their top talent and tell me there aren't similarities. That's really all you have to do.
There are similarities at the top, at least during Dionne's peak, but the depth of competition was substantially better during Selanne's era. There's just no denying that when Euro/Russian/US players make up roughly half the top 5/10 in goals/points, that it's a lot harder to have high finishes.

If you look at their Hart finishes among forwards:

Dionne 2,2,3,3
Selanne 2,2,3

Again, very close. I don't think one should split hairs too much with award voting, it has some value, but it's not gospel either. Dionne has more depth of finishes, but that was when just a vote or two might be the difference between top 5 and out of the top 10, so almost meaningless IMO.

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Yes, I do criticize Dionne for never winning a 7 game playoff series. We weren't talking about his dismal playoff record though when we were talking about elevating their teammates. It is obvious that Dionne elevated Simmer and Taylor's play. Not that they weren't fine players, but there is no doubt who the cream of the crop was on the Triple Crown line. Simmer did nothing until he teamed up with Dionne. Taylor as well clearly benefitted from Dionne. That's all.
Dionne was the straw that stirred the drink, but it's not like his linemates dropped off the proverbial cliff once they were no longer playing with him (league GPG weighted by GP in parentheses):

Simmer
'82-85 LAK (ages 27-30): 214 GP, 89 G, 212 Pts, 0.99 PPG (7.85)
'85-87 BOS (ages 30-33): 198 GP, 98 G, 192 Pts, 0.97 PPG (7.65)

Taylor
'84-86 (ages 27-30): 218 GP, 94 G, 232 Pts, 1.06 PPG (7.86)
'87-89 (ages 30-33): 205 GP, 70 G, 192 Pts, 0.94 PPG (7.41)

That's not far different from the decrease one might expect from a player simply due to age. Simmer doesn't really decline at all and Taylor's decrease is not more than would be expected due to age and decrease in league GPG. In fact, I'd say the decline from their last 3 years with Dionne to their next 3 years without him was less than most would expect, even without considering the difference in having (or not having) Dionne as their center.

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12-30-2012, 10:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
There are similarities at the top, at least during Dionne's peak, but the depth of competition was substantially better during Selanne's era. There's just no denying that when Euro/Russian/US players make up roughly half the top 5/10 in goals/points, that it's a lot harder to have high finishes.

If you look at their Hart finishes among forwards:

Dionne 2,2,3,3
Selanne 2,2,3

Again, very close. I don't think one should split hairs too much with award voting, it has some value, but it's not gospel either. Dionne has more depth of finishes, but that was when just a vote or two might be the difference between top 5 and out of the top 10, so almost meaningless IMO.

Dionne was the straw that stirred the drink, but it's not like his linemates dropped off the proverbial cliff once they were no longer playing with him (league GPG weighted by GP in parentheses):

Simmer
'82-85 LAK (ages 27-30): 214 GP, 89 G, 212 Pts, 0.99 PPG (7.85)
'85-87 BOS (ages 30-33): 198 GP, 98 G, 192 Pts, 0.97 PPG (7.65)

Taylor
'84-86 (ages 27-30): 218 GP, 94 G, 232 Pts, 1.06 PPG (7.86)
'87-89 (ages 30-33): 205 GP, 70 G, 192 Pts, 0.94 PPG (7.41)

That's not far different from the decrease one might expect from a player simply due to age. Simmer doesn't really decline at all and Taylor's decrease is not more than would be expected due to age and decrease in league GPG. In fact, I'd say the decline from their last 3 years with Dionne to their next 3 years without him was less than most would expect, even without considering the difference in having (or not having) Dionne as their center.
Alright, I was always a big Teemu fan and I know he was a great player on his own comparable to some very great names. But I think we are losing the fact that Simmer was literally a nobody until he teamed up with Dionne. That has to go for something. The guy was a first team all-star two years in a row. We've seen instances with players when they were up and comers and when they hit their stride they exploded, but with Simmer he just went from a guy who had 25 points in 83 career games to a star.

I will agree that Selanne would have had an NHL with more depth when you compare Dionne in the 1970s, but let's face it, neither Dionne nor Selanne were guys who were worried about 70-80 point men catching them. When you evaluate guys like this I think really only the top level talent matters. There were more Ray Whitneys in Teemu's time, but does that count? Plus once the 1980s arrived and the 21 teams then I think what Dionne saw in the 1980s depth wise and certainly top end-wise, it would be similar to the 1990s with Teemu.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this and how boring would these boards be if we didn't, right? I think Dionne beats Selanne based on being slightly more revered during his peak years and being able to maintain a higher level of play for longer with more elite seasons. It isn't like Dionne blows him out of the water, it is just that there is too much offense in Dionne's arsenal to ignore and this is one of those players where I believe he beats him at his own game.

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