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Zetterberg vs. Kopitar

View Poll Results: Who's better right now?
Zetterberg 73 47.10%
Kopitar 82 52.90%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
12-25-2012, 08:58 PM
  #51
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right now kopitar

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12-25-2012, 09:38 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
You can argue bias. Toews was overrated just like Kopitar is after he wont he Cup as well. The bias is hype
Please try to make a substantial argument here. You cant seriously question the fact that rounds 1-4 kopitar was the best forward in the 2012 playoffs. I addressed your other misinterpretation in another post. Please argue on the merits of the player. All of my points still stand because you cannot refute them. And most people have toews as a top 10 c and at least comparable to zetterberg so please enough with the hype. Please dont act like the kings winning a cup is independent of kopitars performance because youd be wrong. Furthermore if you made this poll any time after 2009 i bet you that it is pretty close.

You claimed it wouldnt be close. However kopitar has had similar offensive production on a team that is a tier below offensively and has become an elite defensive player as early as 2010. The last few regular seasons they have had have been comparable, and kopitar is entering the prime of his career fresh off a great playoffs. Zetterberg might have some left but without the detroit teams of the early post lockout era, without lids and out of his prime your earlier claim is pretty hard to defend.

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12-25-2012, 09:43 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
At what point did I criticize him? The guy said he was far and away the best forward and I disagreed. Reading comprehension my friend...



Well the fact that you think Zetterberg plays with Datsyuk really shows you aren't well informed enough to continue this discussion... Best player? I will assume you meant best forward because if he was unquestionably the best player he would have won the Smythe, like Zetterberg did...
If kopitar had datsyuk on his team hed be a 90 point player. And furthermore kopitars playoff run is probably a step down from zetterbergs. On the other hand, zetterberg hasnt played under terry murray so we can never really know how the stats would look

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12-25-2012, 10:18 PM
  #54
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zetterberg if it's for an entire career. currently kopitar.

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Old
12-26-2012, 09:08 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
If kopitar had datsyuk on his team hed be a 90 point player. And furthermore kopitars playoff run is probably a step down from zetterbergs. On the other hand, zetterberg hasnt played under terry murray so we can never really know how the stats would look
Do you still think Datsyuk and Zetterberg play together? Because if Kopitar played for the Wings he would be a second line center with less ice time and second tier linemates. His point totals would probably drop if Datsyuk was on his team, or best case scenario, remain the same...

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12-26-2012, 09:16 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
You can argue bias. Toews was overrated just like Kopitar is after he wont he Cup as well. The bias is hype
That is not true, and i'm a Wings fan. Toews yes, Kopitar no. Kopitar is a really really good player. I would still take Zetterberg but in no way is Kopitar overrated because Kings won the cup.

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12-26-2012, 11:00 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by DatsyukianDeke View Post
That is not true, and i'm a Wings fan. Toews yes, Kopitar no. Kopitar is a really really good player. I would still take Zetterberg but in no way is Kopitar overrated because Kings won the cup.
Most players get overrated slightly at least after a Cup run. It's just a natural thing to do

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12-27-2012, 12:28 AM
  #58
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Kopitar for sure.

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12-27-2012, 01:17 AM
  #59
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
If kopitar had datsyuk on his team hed be a 90 point player. And furthermore kopitars playoff run is probably a step down from zetterbergs. On the other hand, zetterberg hasnt played under terry murray so we can never really know how the stats would look
Considering Zetterberg in his prime was better defensively than Kopitar, nothing much would've changed. Kopitar playing on Datsyuks wing is the only way he'd ever get 90points, on the 2nd line by himself? no chance.

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12-27-2012, 01:29 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by sky04 View Post
Considering Zetterberg in his prime was better defensively than Kopitar, nothing much would've changed. Kopitar playing on Datsyuks wing is the only way he'd ever get 90points, on the 2nd line by himself? no chance.
Zetterberg's 90 points is an outlier. He's done it once. Since then he's hit 73, 70, 80, and 69 points. Zetterberg is also seven years older than Kopitar. I don't see how he's the better player now.

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12-27-2012, 01:37 AM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Zetterberg's 90 points is an outlier. He's done it once. Since then he's hit 73, 70, 80, and 69 points. Zetterberg is also seven years older than Kopitar. I don't see how he's the better player now.

Maybe because he's comparable offensively to Kopitar and better defensively?

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12-27-2012, 01:55 AM
  #62
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Originally Posted by Tkachuk4MVP View Post
Maybe because he's comparable offensively to Kopitar and better defensively?
Kopitar outscored Zetterberg while being on the 2nd worst offensive team during the regular season (Wings were 6th best in goal scoring). However, the Kings were the 2nd best team defensively and Kopitar is a big reason for that. Kopitar was 6th overall in total ice time played this past season (not including playoffs). Zetterberg was 23rd in ice time among forwards. How sure are you that Zetterberg is better defensively?

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12-27-2012, 03:09 AM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Kopitar outscored Zetterberg while being on the 2nd worst offensive team during the regular season (Wings were 6th best in goal scoring). However, the Kings were the 2nd best team defensively and Kopitar is a big reason for that. Kopitar was 6th overall in total ice time played this past season (not including playoffs). Zetterberg was 23rd in ice time among forwards. How sure are you that Zetterberg is better defensively?
In the past he certainly was. Now I would take Kopitar offensively and defensively. Kopitar is just simply better in my eyes. That comes from about 70+ viewings of Zetterberg last year and around 30 of Kopitar(includes playoffs). Zetterberg has slowed down some...even if he finished strong, part of slowing down is getting off to terrible starts like he did.

And he played on the most effective line for Detroit IMO. Zetterberg, Filppula and Hudler had some nice offensive chemistry. I feel like all things equal, Kopitar is a 85 point player and Zetterberg is a 75 point player. Those are rough estimates of my opinion of their offensive skill.

Defensive games are so subjective but I again lean toward Kopitar slightly. Zetterberg was incredible in 09 but he isn't that same player. Kopitar is a guy who really excels at all facets of the game and is a top 10 center in the NHL in my opinion.

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12-27-2012, 11:55 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
And if the Pens won in 2008 - hell, even if the powers at be gave playoff MVP to Lidstrom - Zetterberg wouldn't have a Smythe, and we'd be hearing about how he wasn't even the best defensive forward on his team because Datsyuk has three Selkes. And if your aunt was a man, she'd be your uncle.
"Team <X> won in the playoffs thus Player <Y> is better."

If the Canucks had beat the Bruins, would Hamhuis be a better defenseman than Chara?

The Islanders didn't make the playoffs so I guess Tavares isn't as good as ANY of the Kings 3rd liners..

Please, continue to judge players based on team accomplishments.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Zetterberg would be winning this poll easily if this was before the 2012 playoffs. Oh well, Kopitar is HF's flavor of the month, but instead of a month, it's lasted half a year because we haven't seen any hockey for a while
This.

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Originally Posted by sw1tch View Post
Amazing. Be the top scorer in the playoffs, get criticized for it due to only beating the 3rd place player by 1 point despite playing 3 games less and playing vs better defensive teams and goalies

Never change hfboards
Incredible. Judging forwards based on point production in a 20 odd game sample size to definitively say who is better.

Never change HFBoards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Zetterberg's 90 points is an outlier. He's done it once. Since then he's hit 73, 70, 80, and 69 points. Zetterberg is also seven years older than Kopitar. I don't see how he's the better player now.
If you're going to write off Zetterberg's best season, how come you're not doing the same with Kopitar?

Age has nothing to do with how good a player is. Value in trades, future potential, sure, but just because Zetterberg is older you think Kopitar is better? May as well suggest that Cogliano is better than either Sedin. I mean, Henrik only hit 100 points once, and he's SO much older than Cogliano..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust View Post
Kopitar outscored Zetterberg while being on the 2nd worst offensive team during the regular season (Wings were 6th best in goal scoring). However, the Kings were the 2nd best team defensively and Kopitar is a big reason for that. Kopitar was 6th overall in total ice time played this past season (not including playoffs). Zetterberg was 23rd in ice time among forwards. How sure are you that Zetterberg is better defensively?
Again, using team-wide references to time on ice, and points scored, is not how you measure players.

- Coach deployment. Who were the players matched up against most often - other teams' top lines, to play defense? Other teams' third liners, to expose them? Where did they start most of their shifts? We're they given easy minutes (lots of offensive zone draws) or hard minutes where they had to move the puck 160 feet before even THINKING about a shot on goal?

- Puck possession. When Zetterberg and Kopitar were on the ice, how did the team fare? Were they hemmed in their own zone? Did they dictate play? There's a VERY strong relationship between goals for/against and scoring chances for/against, and there's a very strong relationship between shots for/against and scoring chances for/against. It's not perfect but it's pretty good.

- Type of player. Are they a high event player, where they get a lot of chances and give it back at the other end? Are they a low-event player, where they make the safe play (a chip off the glass and out, a dump in from center) and don't get many scoring chances but don't give up a whole lot defensively either?

- Did their play improve or deteriorate with or without particular linemates? Did they drive play or piggyback on other great/good players? Were they driving the bus, a passenger on it, or an anchor behind it?

There's some ideas on how to ACTUALLY measure forwards.

Of course, being HFBoards, if its close, the better forward will always be the one who won the cup recently, or who scored more points recently, and even though its very close, people will say "and it's not even close"..

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Old
12-27-2012, 03:06 PM
  #65
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Zetterberg

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12-27-2012, 03:35 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Again, using team-wide references to time on ice, and points scored, is not how you measure players.
Which is why I used league wide numbers for time on ice, and points, both categories in which Kopitar finished ahead of Zetterberg in the same amount of games played.

Quote:
- Coach deployment. Who were the players matched up against most often - other teams' top lines, to play defense? Other teams' third liners, to expose them? Where did they start most of their shifts? We're they given easy minutes (lots of offensive zone draws) or hard minutes where they had to move the puck 160 feet before even THINKING about a shot on goal?
Kopitar was always matched up against the opposition's top line. He didn't get protected minutes against third or fourth liners. Have you even bothered to watch Kopitar play? What you just wrote in that paragraph summarizes his play. People who pay attention realize that he is one of the most complete forwards playing hockey. Just look at how he dominated every line he was up against during the playoffs, and that was against the likes of Sedin, Backes, Doan, Parise, etc.

Quote:
- Puck possession. When Zetterberg and Kopitar were on the ice, how did the team fare? Were they hemmed in their own zone? Did they dictate play? There's a VERY strong relationship between goals for/against and scoring chances for/against, and there's a very strong relationship between shots for/against and scoring chances for/against. It's not perfect but it's pretty good.
Again, did you pay any attention to Kopitar's play during the playoffs? Did you ever see him outmatched against any opponent? And to answer your question, yes, him and his line did dictate play, constantly.

Quote:
- Type of player. Are they a high event player, where they get a lot of chances and give it back at the other end? Are they a low-event player, where they make the safe play (a chip off the glass and out, a dump in from center) and don't get many scoring chances but don't give up a whole lot defensively either?
They're both solid players defensively. You never see Kopitar give it his all on one end of the ice and not do the same on the opposite end. Once again, I question how many games of his you've bothered to watch considering you are bringing things up that are considered to be his strengths.

Quote:
- Did their play improve or deteriorate with or without particular linemates? Did they drive play or piggyback on other great/good players? Were they driving the bus, a passenger on it, or an anchor behind it?
Gee, like what happened with Zetterberg when he's not with Datsyuk? Exactly who is Kopitar going to leech off of when playing on the 2nd worst offensive team during the regular season? Perhaps there are others who leech off of him?

Quote:
There's some ideas on how to ACTUALLY measure forwards.
And exactly how is Zetterberg better than Kopitar in your above mentioned criteria?

Quote:
Of course, being HFBoards, if its close, the better forward will always be the one who won the cup recently, or who scored more points recently, and even though its very close, people will say "and it's not even close"..
Or maybe it is because Zetterberg's numbers have been going down steadily and he's getting older and showing signs of slowing down and isn't going to have the benefit of having a Lidstrom moving the puck to him.

Or maybe it's because Kopitar is in fact a better player who faces more responsibilities, is used more often in critical situations, whether his team is up or down a goal, faces the toughest matchups every night, logs tons of ice time, is extremely difficult to remove from the puck, deceptively strong with his stick in retaining/retrieving the puck, is a rock when he has the puck along the boards, etc, etc.

But no, that's not it. It's because Kopitar is the flavor of the weak and Zetterberg is an extremely underrated player who plays on a team that nobody pays attention to (and that comment is dripping with sarcasm in case it goes over your head).

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12-27-2012, 04:22 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
"Team <X> won in the playoffs thus Player <Y> is better."

If the Canucks had beat the Bruins, would Hamhuis be a better defenseman than Chara?

The Islanders didn't make the playoffs so I guess Tavares isn't as good as ANY of the Kings 3rd liners..

Please, continue to judge players based on team accomplishments.
Sweet strawman.

People value Anze Kopitar's playoffs highly because it was an incredible performance. Had the Kings lost, it's probably in part because Kopitar was either scoring less, playing worse defense or both. Too bad neither of those things happened and the Kings won the Cup.

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12-28-2012, 02:31 AM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
"Team <X> won in the playoffs thus Player <Y> is better."

If the Canucks had beat the Bruins, would Hamhuis be a better defenseman than Chara?

The Islanders didn't make the playoffs so I guess Tavares isn't as good as ANY of the Kings 3rd liners..

Please, continue to judge players based on team accomplishments.


This.


Incredible. Judging forwards based on point production in a 20 odd game sample size to definitively say who is better.

Never change HFBoards.

If you're going to write off Zetterberg's best season, how come you're not doing the same with Kopitar?

Age has nothing to do with how good a player is. Value in trades, future potential, sure, but just because Zetterberg is older you think Kopitar is better? May as well suggest that Cogliano is better than either Sedin. I mean, Henrik only hit 100 points once, and he's SO much older than Cogliano..


Again, using team-wide references to time on ice, and points scored, is not how you measure players.

- Coach deployment. Who were the players matched up against most often - other teams' top lines, to play defense? Other teams' third liners, to expose them? Where did they start most of their shifts? We're they given easy minutes (lots of offensive zone draws) or hard minutes where they had to move the puck 160 feet before even THINKING about a shot on goal?

- Puck possession. When Zetterberg and Kopitar were on the ice, how did the team fare? Were they hemmed in their own zone? Did they dictate play? There's a VERY strong relationship between goals for/against and scoring chances for/against, and there's a very strong relationship between shots for/against and scoring chances for/against. It's not perfect but it's pretty good.

- Type of player. Are they a high event player, where they get a lot of chances and give it back at the other end? Are they a low-event player, where they make the safe play (a chip off the glass and out, a dump in from center) and don't get many scoring chances but don't give up a whole lot defensively either?

- Did their play improve or deteriorate with or without particular linemates? Did they drive play or piggyback on other great/good players? Were they driving the bus, a passenger on it, or an anchor behind it?

There's some ideas on how to ACTUALLY measure forwards.

Of course, being HFBoards, if its close, the better forward will always be the one who won the cup recently, or who scored more points recently, and even though its very close, people will say "and it's not even close"..
So you are basically not expressing an opinion. Zetterberg is a fine player but if he were playing at kopitars level than him and a fairly good red wings team wouldnt have gotten buried by the rather mediocre preds? If you are going to look at results look at some important ones. Zetterberg was a top 10 nhl player during the red wings prime but i think most agree that between injuries and the decline of the red wings that zetterberg will most likely never repeat his offensive seasons of the past. Kopitar has ready equaled him offensively, as other posters have argued, and their defensive games have become comparable given kopitars development. And this is barely considering that besides for the past 50 or so games he played under terry freaking murray with no winger better offensively than justin williams. So i think they are arguable one way or another and to deny that on the grounds of hype is absolutely ridiculous and implies you have not seen the players involved recently. And to go one step further i think kopitar is a better player because he is a full 5 inches larger than zetterberg, which gives him reach and size that give him a huge edge over players on the cycle. I remember him knocking down mason raymond with one arm or something and that wasnt infrequent. Also at this point kopitar is a better skater than zetterberg. But we dont really know where kopitars career is going so its fair to pick Zetterberg based on a better peak and confidence in the past. But that may come to become an untenable proposal once play is back under way.

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12-28-2012, 02:33 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanZ View Post
Do you still think Datsyuk and Zetterberg play together? Because if Kopitar played for the Wings he would be a second line center with less ice time and second tier linemates. His point totals would probably drop if Datsyuk was on his team, or best case scenario, remain the same...
If kopitar played on the red wings powerplay on the first unit he would probably be a consistent 40 goal scorer even as a 2nd line center. And furthermore the red wings style fits kopitars style of play. On the other hand the majority of player who played on the terry murray kings put up career low statistics

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12-28-2012, 09:24 AM
  #70
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
If kopitar played on the red wings powerplay on the first unit he would probably be a consistent 40 goal scorer even as a 2nd line center. And furthermore the red wings style fits kopitars style of play. On the other hand the majority of player who played on the terry murray kings put up career low statistics
Not last year, Detroit's PP was pretty bad with a new coach.
PP% 16.1, good for 22nd in the league.

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12-29-2012, 02:54 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by porknbeans1000 View Post
So you are basically not expressing an opinion. Zetterberg is a fine player but if he were playing at kopitars level than him and a fairly good red wings team wouldnt have gotten buried by the rather mediocre preds?
The Red Wings also lost to the Oilers in 2006. Do you really think a Red Wings team that went 58-16-8 with a +96 goal differential was a worse team than the Edmonton Oilers, who snuck into the playoffs in the last week of the season? In the playoffs, anything can happen, and it doesn't mean anything about the team, let alone a particular player.

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If you are going to look at results look at some important ones. Zetterberg was a top 10 nhl player during the red wings prime but i think most agree that between injuries and the decline of the red wings that zetterberg will most likely never repeat his offensive seasons of the past.
The reason Zetterberg will (probably) never repeat his offensive season is because his 90 point season came in 2007-2008, when the NHL was calling a heck of a lot more penalties then they are now. He had 36 points on the powerplay that year, compared to just 14 last season. In fact, last year he had 55 points at even strength.. In '07-'08, he had 56 points at even strength. You can't look at a player's year-by-year point totals and decide whether his play has dropped off. There are SO many more factors than that.

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Kopitar has ready equaled him offensively, as other posters have argued, and their defensive games have become comparable given kopitars development.
How has Kopitar equaled Zetterberg offensively? Again, has anyone provided ANY evidence that Kopitar is as good as Zetterberg at producing offense other than "year-by-year point totals"?

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And this is barely considering that besides for the past 50 or so games he played under terry freaking murray with no winger better offensively than justin williams.
People have no idea how good Justin Williams is. He is a legit top-6 forward and probably a legitimate first liner on almost any team; the knock on him is his health and that's why the Kings picked him up cheap.

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So i think they are arguable one way or another and to deny that on the grounds of hype is absolutely ridiculous and implies you have not seen the players involved recently.
I'm not saying they're not arguable... I'm saying it's ridiculous that people are picking Kopitar without second thought and it's almost exclusively because the Kings as a team won the cup. I have seen the players play; I spend an insane amount of time watching hockey and crunching numbers because I make money betting on hockey.

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And to go one step further i think kopitar is a better player because he is a full 5 inches larger than zetterberg, which gives him reach and size that give him a huge edge over players on the cycle. I remember him knocking down mason raymond with one arm or something and that wasnt infrequent.
Let's not pretend that Mason Raymond falling is a rare occurrence. He has his pros and cons as a hockey player but staying on his skates is not a strong suite. That said, Kopitar's reach is better, sure, but Zetterberg's positioning has much more of an impact on the game. Not saying that Kopitar doesn't have great positioning, but Zetterberg might be the best in the NHL at it; certainly top-5.

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Also at this point kopitar is a better skater than zetterberg. But we dont really know where kopitars career is going so its fair to pick Zetterberg based on a better peak and confidence in the past. But that may come to become an untenable proposal once play is back under way.
What are you basing your decision that Kopitar is a better skater on? Anything other than "well, if everyone says it, it must be right. After all, he scores less points these days.."

I'm not saying Zetterberg is a better skater.. I'm saying that if you're going to say "Kopitar is a better skater than Zetterberg", you need to provide a shred of evidence that it is so. If not, it's no different than me saying Tanner Glass is better at puckhandling than Kopitar.

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12-29-2012, 03:23 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
The Red Wings also lost to the Oilers in 2006. Do you really think a Red Wings team that went 58-16-8 with a +96 goal differential was a worse team than the Edmonton Oilers, who snuck into the playoffs in the last week of the season? In the playoffs, anything can happen, and it doesn't mean anything about the team, let alone a particular player.


The reason Zetterberg will (probably) never repeat his offensive season is because his 90 point season came in 2007-2008, when the NHL was calling a heck of a lot more penalties then they are now. He had 36 points on the powerplay that year, compared to just 14 last season. In fact, last year he had 55 points at even strength.. In '07-'08, he had 56 points at even strength. You can't look at a player's year-by-year point totals and decide whether his play has dropped off. There are SO many more factors than that.


How has Kopitar equaled Zetterberg offensively? Again, has anyone provided ANY evidence that Kopitar is as good as Zetterberg at producing offense other than "year-by-year point totals"?


People have no idea how good Justin Williams is. He is a legit top-6 forward and probably a legitimate first liner on almost any team; the knock on him is his health and that's why the Kings picked him up cheap.


I'm not saying they're not arguable... I'm saying it's ridiculous that people are picking Kopitar without second thought and it's almost exclusively because the Kings as a team won the cup. I have seen the players play; I spend an insane amount of time watching hockey and crunching numbers because I make money betting on hockey.


Let's not pretend that Mason Raymond falling is a rare occurrence. He has his pros and cons as a hockey player but staying on his skates is not a strong suite. That said, Kopitar's reach is better, sure, but Zetterberg's positioning has much more of an impact on the game. Not saying that Kopitar doesn't have great positioning, but Zetterberg might be the best in the NHL at it; certainly top-5.


What are you basing your decision that Kopitar is a better skater on? Anything other than "well, if everyone says it, it must be right. After all, he scores less points these days.."

I'm not saying Zetterberg is a better skater.. I'm saying that if you're going to say "Kopitar is a better skater than Zetterberg", you need to provide a shred of evidence that it is so. If not, it's no different than me saying Tanner Glass is better at puckhandling than Kopitar.
Let me refer to my radar gun to back up my claim about the skating...

Im basing this on viewing. Zetterberg is probably a 7 skater and kopitar is like a 9. Also you dismiss season point totals but that works out favorably for zetterberg when you consider them. You prove what i was saying earlier, zetterberg spent 2 or 3 seasons of his prime on an elite team in an offensive era and this is the main reason zetterberg is percieved to be a better offensive player. You can go ahead and summon the advanced stats, but the reality is that kopitar has performed at a level that is basically year for year above zetterbergs across their career. And really one started on a titan and the other on a terrible team. So i think the hype he gets now is a natural product of an elite center being surrounded by elite talent. You can say that zetterberg also got his reputation boosted by leading a great team. I think if consider the poll question - who is better now, its not a bad answer to choose kopitar with little argument because i think theres a good chance that kopitar will be a better player than zetterberg next season primarily because kopitar will play on a much improved team and he will enter his physical prime while zetterberg is generally percieve as exiting his own.

Another factor i think one would consider is the alleviation of what was franchise turmoil with the hiring of darryl sutter and the winning of the cup. This goes to your point about williams, good player but ineffective often and injured frequently. Many people still see a potential 90 point centerman in kopitar.


Last edited by LAX attack*: 12-29-2012 at 03:44 AM.
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