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So Who Is Bummed About The Lockout III ---> Season likely to start on Jan. 19th

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12-28-2012, 03:21 PM
  #176
Dr Jan Itor
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Exactly...but I'm about 99.9% sure we'll get a hockey season in two weeks.
It's better than nothing, I guess.

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12-28-2012, 04:29 PM
  #177
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Forthewild,

Would you have been happier if the PA just came right out and said "we have nothing whatsoever to gain and a lot more to lose by accepting an early deal, so we are going to use the only leverage we have, which is severely damaging the NHL through lost revenues, sponsorship deals, and fan support, until they give us the best deal they can without losing a full season"?

Would you also have been happier if the NHL just came right out and said "although we are the ones who canceled an entire NHL season to force the last deal through, we are going to force the players to accept massive concessions in salary and contract term and withhold their pay until they finally give in because they have more to lose by not playing"?

Because that's pretty much been the intent of each side since the beginning.

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12-28-2012, 04:42 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Forthewild,

Would you have been happier if the PA just came right out and said "we have nothing whatsoever to gain and a lot more to lose by accepting an early deal, so we are going to use the only leverage we have, which is severely damaging the NHL through lost revenues, sponsorship deals, and fan support, until they give us the best deal they can without losing a full season"?

Would you also have been happier if the NHL just came right out and said "although we are the ones who canceled an entire NHL season to force the last deal through, we are going to force the players to accept massive concessions in salary and contract term and withhold their pay until they finally give in because they have more to lose by not playing"?

Because that's pretty much been the intent of each side since the beginning.
I would have been happier if they both cut the ****, there is zero reason why the last offer NHL made before this one couldn't have been made in september.

NHL was ridiculous to expect players to foot the bill for the new CBA split, PA was equality ridiculous in their tactics.

however long the next CBA is won't be long enough, we're going to go through this **** again.

I still believe that NHL's key hog in this barn is 50/50 split, i think that had the PA been serious at any point before the season was lost that NHL would have absorbed any losses in the transition to that point,

also this whole idea that the players got bent over last time and thus had to make a stand to not let it happen again is stupid. when a dumb**** like Bissonete has a job paying him what he is making there is no way payers lost.

point still stands, at some point not to long ago NHL began looking for a solution and the players stuck a thumb up their ass and said we'll wait till you give more. so yeah the players can go **** themselves.

Jaric you can sit here and defend their strategy all you want, but at some point that 'say no" went plain too far, i'm no fool i see that NHL has their share of blame here, however recent events have shown one side was willing a month ago the other not, we could have had hockey a month ago but thanks to ego we didn't.

in the end people that will suffer the most are the those who have bars, shops, and blue collar workers, followed by the fans, followed by the grinders. In the end recent PA events will cost them all if fans don't come back, they took this game too far, to me it was like the name callings contest two kids have, stars off with you fool, you sucker and when the one kid drops the one insult that goes over the line you know you have gone too far, except the PA just cruised past that line and decided to step on the gas.

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12-28-2012, 04:51 PM
  #179
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If the NHL gave this proposal in September, who's to say the PA doesn't say "thanks, what else are you going to give us?"

It's because of the "drop dead" date.

The NHL is following the same path as the NBA did, lock out the players to get to 50/50. So the NHLPA is following the NBPA template as well.

NHL/NBA: lock out players
NHLPA/NBPA: stall and then decertify
Both sides: reach agreement right before the drop dead date

The NBA drop dead date was games to start on Christmas Day. Everyone knew it going in. And guess what...that's when games started.

The NHL drop dead date has always been mid-December, because that's what happened in 94-95. Everyone knew that going in. And that's exactly where it looks like it's heading.

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12-28-2012, 06:56 PM
  #180
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All this is assuming that the PA actually works around this particular proposal and gets the season going. Which I think is far from a given at this stage...

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12-28-2012, 07:03 PM
  #181
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not if the target is the cap...it'll take a player over-throw of Msrs Fehr to start the season if this whole time they've been dicking around.

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12-28-2012, 09:38 PM
  #182
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not if the target is the cap...it'll take a player over-throw of Msrs Fehr to start the season if this whole time they've been dicking around.
that is the target, Fehr has never agreed to a cap in any deal he has done, he doesn't want to start now. watch the spin then PA reject this and season gets canned.

players will then in july or something settle for a similar capped deal and wonder if the pay they lost was worth it.

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12-28-2012, 09:45 PM
  #183
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The players aren't going after the cap.

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12-28-2012, 09:54 PM
  #184
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Just take the ********* deal and let's have some hockey by January you fools. That's all I got to say on the matter. ******* both sides.

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12-29-2012, 09:46 AM
  #185
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So read in Russo's article the NHLPA is working on a counter proposal. Hopefully it is not drastically different from the NHL's.



http://m.startribune.com/?id=185121451

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12-29-2012, 09:52 AM
  #186
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Makes sense. They will counter, NHL will balk...we'll do it again in a week or two.

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12-29-2012, 10:22 AM
  #187
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That may be what will happen but Fehr should be careful in this game of chicken he's playing with Bettman. If his demands are hugely different then the proposal bye bye season. Unless that's what he wants of course.

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12-29-2012, 10:27 AM
  #188
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They aren't far apart.

I'm 99.9% sure if the NHL proposed the same agreement in two weeks the players would accept. They're just pushing until the last minute to get as much as possible out of the deal.

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12-29-2012, 11:19 AM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
They aren't far apart.

I'm 99.9% sure if the NHL proposed the same agreement in two weeks the players would accept. They're just pushing until the last minute to get as much as possible out of the deal.
which "not far appart," Fehrs "not far appart" which is about a billion dollars or Bettmans "not far appart" which we haven't heard yet because one billion dollars is the opposite of "not far off"

the longer the PA keeps "waiting to get the best deal" the more damage they do to the game "they can't wait to play"

i love his league, i love this game, and i bleed forest green, iron range red and wheat (OT Wheat away jerseys would be epic )

but if this game doesn't recover fast, players will be the ones to blame.

you can read my comments in these threads i was a pro PA guy to begin with, i didn't like the way NHL approached the negotiations and how they expected the players to pay for the transition, but in recent times at every opportunity to salvage the game PA has been a road block.

here is a hidden thing in this deal that people are overlooking and yes its very conditional on what happens in the future, but if the brand has been tarnished, to get the few extra million or an extra year the PA is so hellbent on they cause the game to shrink they will all lost way more by devaluing the brand with their silly "omg you guys are bending us over and it hurts, we just can't stand for this injustice"

i would love nothing more then this being a one year dip with the game recovering, but this has been hard to justify, in the begging NHL was the culprit, but as you can see in their approach starting in late October and November NHL has been trying to find a dance partner and the PA has just been playing dumb.

the longer the PA waits the more damage they do, as far as any credibility the PA has they lost it when they made a proposal in a tense time in negotiations with out RUNNING THE ****ING NUMBERS. that is akin to you showing up to tryouts for a forward position by bringing a golf club

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12-29-2012, 11:28 AM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
They aren't far apart.

I'm 99.9% sure if the NHL proposed the same agreement in two weeks the players would accept. They're just pushing until the last minute to get as much as possible out of the deal.
Yeah. One could argue that all this could have gained even earlier. But in the end Fehr will look like a winner and warrior because of his tactics.

No one knows what happened if things were done differently. But his tactics make him look better than he may be.

I've said it before and say it again. If someone else would've made a similar deal that Fehr is going to get in the end (some day..) A lot of people would've shout that they lost, that's horrible, they didn't even try!!

But because Fehr does it like he does. He will look like a hero from an NHLPA perspective.. no matter what the actual result will be.

All I want is.. start to play some hockey. That we fans could root for the same thing again. The team and the players. And "fight" against other teams and other players. This whole mess ripped also the fans apart. Even the fans of the same team.

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12-29-2012, 11:32 AM
  #191
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When the CBA gets done in a week or two, please do not paint anyone as a hero or savior. They all failed. Just move on, NHL.
QFT Chis Botta

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12-29-2012, 11:33 AM
  #192
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it's a little comforting thinking that most of the individual players have already lost more money than they'll make up.

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12-29-2012, 12:03 PM
  #193
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Originally Posted by rynryn View Post
it's a little comforting thinking that most of the individual players have already lost more money than they'll make up.
yeah and this is assuming the game doesn't take a huge beating over the next few years growth wise, if the game stalls or regresses which is very well might the amount they are going to lose is going to be bigger.

so it was projected to be 3.3 billion, they get 50%, if the game shrinks to say 2.9 billion which is likely they get even less money going forward.

now the game could grow, it could recover fast, but players are playing a dangerous game here....

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12-29-2012, 01:32 PM
  #194
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which "not far appart," Fehrs "not far appart" which is about a billion dollars or Bettmans "not far appart" which we haven't heard yet because one billion dollars is the opposite of "not far off"
Two years in the CBA and a few million in escrow in year two.

Quote:
here is a hidden thing in this deal that people are overlooking and yes its very conditional on what happens in the future, but if the brand has been tarnished, to get the few extra million or an extra year the PA is so hellbent on they cause the game to shrink they will all lost way more by devaluing the brand with their silly "omg you guys are bending us over and it hurts, we just can't stand for this injustice"
The damage isn't to the PA or the players, it's to the NHL.

You really ought to calm down.

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12-29-2012, 01:46 PM
  #195
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how does it not damage the players? that's just wrong. Not really sure what the damage is, and we won't know for a little while but in order to make up lost revenue might not more owners operate with a self-imposed cap near the floor? make more money (or lose less, more accurately) absolutely sucking but spending $15m less on payroll? Leipold and the gang will have longer careers in pro hockey than most players, and more time to make up their cash. the association on a long term basis, no, it doesn't get hurt all that much considering the turnover.

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12-29-2012, 01:56 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Two years in the CBA and a few million in escrow in year two.



The damage isn't to the PA or the players, it's to the NHL.

You really ought to calm down.
It won't hurt those who have signed deals already, however if the revenues go down or dont grow it will hurt every player who has to sign a deal.

see under 3.3 billion at 50% players get what 1.65 billion to their pool, now we are hoping the game grows, however we can't guarantee that. so if the game sees a reduction to say 3.1 billion (next year not the shortened season) then players have less money, all the deals that were signed for much higher cap sizes are going to then leave less money for other players to have.

take minnesota for one, with Parise/Suter/Koivu eating up what 21.79 million of cap, if its set at 60mil that leaves 40 million for rest of team, fine amount. But if the league sees an erosion in value to 3.1b, or 3.0 bil then the cap goes down so that 21.75 million remains tied to 3 players and the rest of the players have a smaller pie.

this screws every player who is going to be signing a deal after the CBA.

one important thing to note is that this is assuming revenues go down, this is something that might happen, however for all we know the game could very well grow at 5%+.

only time will tell

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12-29-2012, 02:00 PM
  #197
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how does it not damage the players? that's just wrong. Not really sure what the damage is, and we won't know for a little while but in order to make up lost revenue might not more owners operate with a self-imposed cap near the floor? make more money (or lose less, more accurately) absolutely sucking but spending $15m less on payroll? Leipold and the gang will have longer careers in pro hockey than most players, and more time to make up their cash. the association on a long term basis, no, it doesn't get hurt all that much considering the turnover.
Problem here is the whole reason cap is needed is to save the owners from being owners, players that are good will get paid, they will have their pay inflated.

what would hurt the players is 3.3b reducing which pushed the ceiling down and leaves a smaller pie for the next guy seeking to get paid, while at the same time guys who signed before the new CBA got a deal that was handed out for a much higher ceiling.

Parise and Suter signed their deals with a 72 million ceiling, if the new ceiling gets to 58 or 57 million, those deals are magnified for the team.

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12-29-2012, 02:09 PM
  #198
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Parise and Suter signed their deals with a 72 million ceiling, if the new ceiling gets to 58 or 57 million, those deals are magnified for the team.
Good point. Wild may end up having Parise and Suter but no team.

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12-29-2012, 03:09 PM
  #199
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Good point. Wild may end up having Parise and Suter but no team.
Yeah how much do you think MiG and Brodin will be pissed when the PA is responsible for them having a smaller pie

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12-31-2012, 08:17 PM
  #200
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Thanks Bettman and Fehr for ruining a long yearly tradition. Not being down at the Xcel with friends for Wild hockey on New Year's Eve sucks!

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