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Mark Scheifele for Phil Kessel

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Old
12-29-2012, 12:53 PM
  #201
YWGinYYZ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Yes, Kessel for Scheifele is WPG getting absolutely fleeced Oh wait my bad, I'm overvaluing Kessel -- he's one dimensional and doesn't cross check nearly enough. Definitely not worth an OHL scoring star.
You're ignoring organizational needs. There's no question that Kessel is a proven 1st line player, whose worth is greater than Scheifele's current worth. That said: if Kessel did not resign, then he'd be an expensive rental for the Jets that would leave the prospect cupboards bare.

In my eyes, trades have to look at current and future needs, contract status, salary cap, etc, etc. I'd give my right you-know-what to have Kessel, but not at the expense of long term organization success, and not as a (potentially) 1 year + rental. The Jets aren't going to be contenders in the short term, which is where Kessel could definitely help.

I don't know why the Leafs would't simply go after someone like Getzlaf when he's UFA - keep Kessel, and pair him with Getz. You've given up nothing, and only had to find cap space to sign him.

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12-29-2012, 12:54 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Takes a lot more time to assemble a team chemistry like Boston, LA, St Louis, Nashville, Penguins...you know....GOOD TEAMS.

That seems to be what Jets fans are truly after. Flour is the main ingredient and perhaps its a bad analogy but it is the main composition of the cake. Just throwing on a cherry should be the easiest and least strenuous thing to do.
Is it really chemistry that makes those teams good? Or is it the fact that they have better players?

I don't even get where the "Kessel has no chemistry" thing is coming from????

Did you forget the season that Kessel and Lupul just put up?? I don't think I've seen chemistry like that in a while on this leafs team. The only duo that has more chem IMO is Sedin/Sedin for obvious reasons.

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12-29-2012, 12:54 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
But Kessel is one dimensional
You're sarcastic?

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12-29-2012, 12:55 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Hard to draft those kinds of players like Bergeron, Krecji, Kopitar, Scheifle (who i think will compare one day). Takes time and scouting expertise and you dont always get what you want..some bust and what not.
Yet we should take that chance and trade away our top 10 winger. Laughable.

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12-29-2012, 12:56 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by YWGinYYZ View Post
I don't know why the Leafs would't simply go after someone like Getzlaf when he's UFA - keep Kessel, and pair him with Getz. You've given up nothing, and only had to find cap space to sign him.
This... Even a lower end C like Weiss/Zajac/etc would work wonders...

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12-29-2012, 12:58 PM
  #206
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Im gonna go point by point here cuz I may need to long wind it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Is it really chemistry that makes those teams good? Or is it the fact that they have better players?
Its both. But hockey is a game of roles and if you can have the same players with offensive ability but who do things that other players dont (check, hit, strip pucks, draw calls, fight, block shots, take faceoffs) then you have better players. Its basically intangibles and its what is hard to find (combinations of both skill and intangibles)

Quote:
I don't even get where the "Kessel has no chemistry" thing is coming from????
I think youre misundersanding the word. By team chemistry I mean team composition. What kind of players your team is composed of...the chemistry of it.

Quote:
Did you forget the season that Kessel and Lupul just put up?? I don't think I've seen chemistry like that in a while on this leafs team. The only duo that has more chem IMO is Sedin/Sedin for obvious reasons.
This is not what I mean by chemistry. This is like production chemistry and while pretty good, the line was still quite poor in the intangible department and was allowing more goals against them then they ultimately scored./

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12-29-2012, 12:59 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
The only insult I've seen in this thread so far is the original offer in the op.
Alright man good for you

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12-29-2012, 01:00 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Yet we should take that chance and trade away our top 10 winger. Laughable.
For a great prospect or two.

All day,.and then some.

Top 10 in scoring points...I will correct you there.

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12-29-2012, 01:00 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
No, I see it as Scheifele was proclaimed as the face of the franchise because he was the 1st pick by the Jets so it made waves in their eyes. Look at the success rate of 6-10 drafted forwards, from even the most stacked draft of 2003 to now, all I see is Couture and Skinner as a 1st liner.
While I am high on Scheifele, it's interesting to look at 7th overall picks from 2001 to 2008.

2001: Komisarek (Healthy scratch)
2002: Lupul (1st line winger last year, but traditionally a 2nd line winger)
2003: Suter (1st pairing D)
2004: Olesz (AHLer)
2005: Skille (Healthy scratch)
2006: Okposo (2nd line winger)
2007: Voracek (2nd line winger)
2008: Wilson (2nd line centre)

Out of eight years, one top player, one 1st/2nd line tweener, three 2nd liners, three busts.

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12-29-2012, 01:03 PM
  #210
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Draft Monahan. Trade for Scheifele.

SIZE DOWN THE MIDDLE BOYZ.

I'd consider Kessel for Scheifele + Trouba, but I don't think either team does it. Scheifele and Trouba are nice, and will be NHL players for sure, but I don't think either will be stars.

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12-29-2012, 01:04 PM
  #211
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Top 10 in scoring points...I will correct you there.
A few posts ago you called him a top 10 winger.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Top 10 winger for sure.

Scheifele looks good. I'm not fessing to know how the future will work out but he does have top six potential and intangible qualities.

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12-29-2012, 01:04 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Falconator View Post
All I'm saying is he's publicly stated that he's not interested in following what Pittsburgh and Edmonton did by losing for five years in a row. Which backfired on him anyways, being that the Leafs have drafted or could have drafted 5th, 9th, 2nd and 7th overall in the past four years. Drafting Rielly was a great move, he looks to be a very good young prospect.

I just don't believe for a second that he's gonna wanna finish in the bottom five for the next four years, he'll be fired before that. In the below video he's so full of it! Pittsburgh didn't win the Cup solely because of Sidney Crosby, they won the Cup because they drafted Malkin 2nd overall, Staal 2nd overall, Fleury 1st overall, Whitney 5th overall etc etc. I don't hate the Leafs but I love the fact they are failing miserably under his watch, because I really don't care for the man.

http://youtu.be/jzbUKhI5JfQ
Whst you're missing is they got Crosby because they drafted Malkin. They lost the Ovechkin draft, and took Malkin second instead. That meant they had 3 balls in the crosby lottery instead of 2.

It's asinine for anyone to say build like Pittsburgh. You could try 1000 times and never get the luck they had.

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12-29-2012, 01:05 PM
  #213
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Only on HF is a prospect better than a young player who has 4 straight 30+ goal seasons.

How underrated is Kessel? Finishes 6th in league scoring with Tyler Bozak as his centre and he's just a crappy one-dimensional winger.

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12-29-2012, 01:06 PM
  #214
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dangles McGavin View Post
Draft Monahan. Trade for Scheifele.

SIZE DOWN THE MIDDLE BOYZ.

I'd consider Kessel for Scheifele + Trouba, but I don't think either team does it. Scheifele and Trouba are nice, and will be NHL players for sure, but I don't think either will be stars.
I think Trouba will be as good as Bogosian (any role, any situation) and Scheifele is the next Bergeron (any role, any situation).

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12-29-2012, 01:06 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
No, I see it as Scheifele was proclaimed as the face of the franchise because he was the 1st pick by the Jets so it made waves in their eyes. Look at the success rate of 6-10 drafted forwards, from even the most stacked draft of 2003 to now, all I see is Couture and Skinner as a 1st liner.
But you're so right it's all about trends and we all know history repeats itself. It could never be that analyzing a player like the scouts in carolina knew this kid would amount to something instead of playing the numbers game huh? You're so so right.

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12-29-2012, 01:08 PM
  #216
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Only on HF is a prospect better than a young player who has 4 straight 30+ goal seasons.

How underrated is Kessel? Finishes 6th in league scoring with Tyler Bozak as his centre and he's just a crappy one-dimensional winger.
Let me guess...it's all the LEafs' goalies fault Kessel is one-dimensional.

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12-29-2012, 01:09 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by Badger Mayhew View Post
While I am high on Scheifele, it's interesting to look at 7th overall picks from 2001 to 2008.

2001: Komisarek (Healthy scratch)
2002: Lupul (1st line winger last year, but traditionally a 2nd line winger)
2003: Suter (1st pairing D)
2004: Olesz (AHLer)
2005: Skille (Healthy scratch)
2006: Okposo (2nd line winger)
2007: Voracek (2nd line winger)
2008: Wilson (2nd line centre)

Out of eight years, one top player, one 1st/2nd line tweener, three 2nd liners, three busts.
Wilson was a 2nd line center? When? Since Trotz does not like him for some reason. Go ask Pred fans. And he has played winger for most of his 'nhl career'. And I was saying that the forwards drafted 6-10 have a crap success rate. And Lupul is considered a 2nd line winger in the majority of HF's view, so lets go with that. And if you look at the year above+below, you are getting the almighty 'bust' of Kadri, and a no name in Lars Jonsson. and going 2 more, you get Beech, and Malhotra.

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12-29-2012, 01:12 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I think Trouba will be as good as Bogosian (any role, any situation) and Scheifele is the next Bergeron (any role, any situation).
Damn, won't you be disappointed. Trouba is a shutdown dman, while Bogo is an offensive dman. Scheifele is not a 2 way center.

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12-29-2012, 01:15 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Im gonna go point by point here cuz I may need to long wind it.



Its both. But hockey is a game of roles and if you can have the same players with offensive ability but who do things that other players dont (check, hit, strip pucks, draw calls, fight, block shots, take faceoffs) then you have better players. Its basically intangibles and its what is hard to find (combinations of both skill and intangibles)



I think youre misundersanding the word. By team chemistry I mean team composition. What kind of players your team is composed of...the chemistry of it.



This is not what I mean by chemistry. This is like production chemistry and while pretty good, the line was still quite poor in the intangible department and was allowing more goals against them then they ultimately scored./
Ty Bomber.

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12-29-2012, 01:17 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Leaffan16 View Post
Damn, won't you be disappointed. Trouba is a shutdown dman, while Bogo is an offensive dman. Scheifele is not a 2 way center.
That's your opinion. I have mine.

Neither of us are pro scouts. We'll leave it at that.

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12-29-2012, 01:19 PM
  #221
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Only on HF is a prospect better than a young player who has 4 straight 30+ goal seasons.

How underrated is Kessel? Finishes 6th in league scoring with Tyler Bozak as his centre and he's just a crappy one-dimensional winger.
? Nobody ever stated throughout this entire thread that the prospect being examined, Scheifele, is better than Kessel... Nobody.

Bomber explain to this guy further if you wish, I'm headed to shinny.

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12-29-2012, 01:19 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
This... Even a lower end C like Weiss/Zajac/etc would work wonders...
These players would help the Leafs poor roster chemistry but they would ultimately cost a pretty penny and this is why many teams just draft these kinds of players over many years

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12-29-2012, 01:20 PM
  #223
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
That's your opinion. I have mine.

Neither of us are pro scouts. We'll leave it at that.
Alright, but you are trying to push your opinion that they will turn into X player 2.0 while they dont even have the same playing style.

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12-29-2012, 01:21 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
These players would help the Leafs poor roster chemistry but they would ultimately cost a pretty penny and this is why many teams just draft these kinds of players over many years
You are complaining that the Leafs will have to pay a pretty penny on the Ufa market to get some good talent?

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12-29-2012, 01:24 PM
  #225
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You are complaining that the Leafs will have to pay a pretty penny on the Ufa market to get some good talent?
Yes and also the trade option too which is why teams prefer to draft their players (just as the Winnipeg fans have stated they want).

I see where theyre coming from.

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