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Lockout Discussion Thread 5.0: The Lockout is over!!

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Old
12-29-2012, 09:17 AM
  #26
Frozenice
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That would be moronic. Bourque can actually be a steal at 3.3 mil/year while Gomez has a snowball's cahnce in hell at being worth anything close to 7.35 mil/year.

Bourque is a better player than Gomez AND he makes less than HALF the cap hit.
I disagree completely with your comparison of Gomez and Bourque. Assuming both start here shortly it will be pretty clear who wants the buyout more and who has a bit of pride and dignity.

Should we re-hire Gauthier, too? He is after all the genius who acquired Bourque and Kaberle.

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12-29-2012, 09:29 AM
  #27
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Originally Posted by the vinyl version View Post
I haven't really followed the whole "hill we will die on thing" particularly closely. Was he saying that the general inclusion of contract limits of some sort was the hill, or was it specifically the 5 year limit?
It was the 5 year limit - the union had already made an offer that included a longer limit.

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12-29-2012, 09:39 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I disagree completely with your comparison of Gomez and Bourque. Assuming both start here shortly it will be pretty clear who wants the buyout more and who has a bit of pride and dignity.

Should we re-hire Gauthier, too? He is after all the genius who acquired Bourque and Kaberle.
It's not about pride and dignity it's about a salary cap and production. I'm sure Gomez wants out of Montreal worse than any NHLer this side of Redden and NYR.

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12-29-2012, 10:38 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by makbowles View Post
Is it one buyout per year? If that's the case I'd buy out Gomer first. Bourque has a lot more chance of turning it around than Gomer does.
The offer of the NHL has one compliance buyout with no cap hit. Whether a team can still buyout a player with the old regular rule is a good question. Regular rule: Pay 2/3 of the remaining salary and the spread the amount on twice the amount of remaining years as cap hit. Gomez's hit like this would be 1.5 million for 2 years.

I say buy them both out. Or just buy Kaber & Gomez. We'll need cap space that's for sure, either for a real top 6 winger or a real top 4 dman.

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12-29-2012, 10:46 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
It's not about pride and dignity it's about a salary cap and production. I'm sure Gomez wants out of Montreal worse than any NHLer this side of Redden and NYR.
Gomez may want out of Montreal but if Bourque wants the buyout more, my feeling is Bourque will get it. The problem is because Gomez has pride and dignity, he won't stoop to do what Bourque will do to get the buyout.

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12-29-2012, 10:49 AM
  #31
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They better get a deal done here in the next 2 weeks

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12-29-2012, 10:56 AM
  #32
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I've never heard of a 3.3 million cap hit being a cap hit that is hindering a team. It represents a little under 5% of the cap. Gomez eats up a little over 10% of the cap and plays at a position that is full for the habs. With Eller, Desharnais, Plekanec and maybe even Galchenyuk, Gomez will have a tough time finding a spot. He isn't needed and if there is a compliance buy-out, he is the logical choice.

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Old
12-29-2012, 10:58 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I've never heard of a 3.3 million cap hit being a cap hit that is hindering a team. It represents a little under 5% of the cap. Gomez eats up a little over 10% of the cap and plays at a position that is full for the habs. With Eller, Desharnais, Plekanec and maybe even Galchenyuk, Gomez will have a tough time finding a spot. He isn't needed and if there is a compliance buy-out, he is the logical choice.
If Desharnais can bring back a solid piece(winger) I would consider moving him. I don't see him repeating last years play to be honest

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12-29-2012, 11:28 AM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Andy View Post
I've never heard of a 3.3 million cap hit being a cap hit that is hindering a team. It represents a little under 5% of the cap. Gomez eats up a little over 10% of the cap and plays at a position that is full for the habs. With Eller, Desharnais, Plekanec and maybe even Galchenyuk, Gomez will have a tough time finding a spot. He isn't needed and if there is a compliance buy-out, he is the logical choice.
Maybe re-read the 450,000 posts about AK.

I've watched a lot of football and what Bourque is going through isn't that uncommon and the same thing happens in motorcycle racing - GP and TT or boxing. At best Bourque is going to be okay some of the time and there will always be better choices out there.


Last edited by Frozenice: 12-29-2012 at 12:35 PM.
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Old
12-29-2012, 12:08 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
That would be moronic. Bourque can actually be a steal at 3.3 mil/year while Gomez has a snowball's cahnce in hell at being worth anything close to 7.35 mil/year.

Bourque is a better player than Gomez AND he makes less than HALF the cap hit.
Agreed. I have asked about 20 times for someone to find another 20 goal scoring 3rd liner who gets paid less than 3.3 million and they all go quiet for some reason.

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Old
12-29-2012, 12:33 PM
  #36
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http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sport...rticle6795107/

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Three of the teams contacted this week were willing to put an exact figure on the number of cancellations they have had over the past 3 1/2 months: The Winnipeg Jets reported no cancellations; the Toronto Maple Leafs indicated they had had just one; and the Montreal Canadiens noted only eight people had given up their tickets.

“We’ve got extremely passionate and loyal fans,” Canadiens senior vice-president Donald Beauchamp said

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Old
12-29-2012, 12:33 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Agreed. I have asked about 20 times for someone to find another 20 goal scoring 3rd liner who gets paid less than 3.3 million and they all go quiet for some reason.
I'd rather have Yannick Weber as a 3rd line winger or bring AK back. I'd even take Darche or Moen instead of Bourque. Or Leblanc or Geoffrion, if he was healthy.

Bourque had 24 points last year, that shouldn't be that hard to replace.

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12-29-2012, 12:38 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Agreed. I have asked about 20 times for someone to find another 20 goal scoring 3rd liner who gets paid less than 3.3 million and they all go quiet for some reason.
I don't think that's quite fair - Bourque was 6th among Hab forwards in TOI last season, at 17:49 - Moen was 7th at 15:42.

I do think that 18 goals is fine for a complementary 2nd liner. The problem is a mix of Bourque's cap hit and his one dimensional skillset. IMO Kostitsyn or Sykora could have filled the same role for cheaper. There are always Wellwoods and Grabners and Omarks available. None of these are fantastic players, but as far as one dimensional 2nd liners go, there are options that require less commitment.

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Old
12-29-2012, 02:13 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I don't think that's quite fair - Bourque was 6th among Hab forwards in TOI last season, at 17:49 - Moen was 7th at 15:42.

I do think that 18 goals is fine for a complementary 2nd liner. The problem is a mix of Bourque's cap hit and his one dimensional skillset. IMO Kostitsyn or Sykora could have filled the same role for cheaper. There are always Wellwoods and Grabners and Omarks available. None of these are fantastic players, but as far as one dimensional 2nd liners go, there are options that require less commitment.
Sure, but it really is not a big deal. Especially since he does have good size.

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Old
12-29-2012, 02:17 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I'd rather have Yannick Weber as a 3rd line winger or bring AK back. I'd even take Darche or Moen instead of Bourque. Or Leblanc or Geoffrion, if he was healthy.

Bourque had 24 points last year, that shouldn't be that hard to replace.
That's not really the question, otherwise, if we're going to go into what we'd rather have, then I rather have a solid consistent top six a la MaxPac.
What you should be asking yourself is would you rather have Gomez or Bourque. Darche-Weber-LL-whoever else is completely irrelevant.
It's between Gomez and Bourque.

Let's look at the cap hits:
Gomez - 7.357 cap hit for this year +1.
Bourque - 3.333 this year +3.

Now, we're pretty much at 64M in cap hits. If the current offer is accepted (or at least this part agreed on), then next year, the cap will drop back down to 63M (or was it 60?).
Keep in mind, Subban is still unsigned. Because of all these reasons alone, freeing up 7.357 from our cap would be a lot better, even if Gomez only has one extra season left. If we remove Bourque, we're going to get stuck having to move a couple players in order to create space and fit under the cap.
It only makes things simpler.

Also, Bourque looked absolutely horrible last season, but I also think he was completely misused by RC (like pretty much the whole team). You can't make him play along side Plekanec, he can't handle that role. He needs to be either with DD or Eller, getting easier match ups. I'm sure he could do a much better job than last year. We saw how AK could dominate opponents with Eller when facing 3rd liners, I don't see why Bourque wouldn't be able to do the same.


Gomez, on the other hand, has no use. He isn't in our top 3 centers, and he can't fill the role of a 4th line center either. His only chance is to be merged to the wing. The only reason why this is an option is because of our poor winger depth, but we don't know if that transition would work.


However, Gomez has had more than one chance to bounce back and he's failed miserably. Bourque only played 38 games with us, and did so under the supervision of one of the worst coaches I've seen in years.
If you also look at his cap hit, Prust is making 2.5M. Bourque has a friendly cap hit,
Gomez doesn't, and we need room.

It's a no brainer to me. Gomez is out.

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Old
12-29-2012, 02:31 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frozenice View Post
I'd rather have Yannick Weber as a 3rd line winger or bring AK back. I'd even take Darche or Moen instead of Bourque. Or Leblanc or Geoffrion, if he was healthy.

Bourque had 24 points last year, that shouldn't be that hard to replace.
I am sure you would rather have a 4 goal scoring dman on wing, shame every centre in the world would disagree. If it so easy to replace go find one, 18 goals, go find it.

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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I don't think that's quite fair - Bourque was 6th among Hab forwards in TOI last season, at 17:49 - Moen was 7th at 15:42.

I do think that 18 goals is fine for a complementary 2nd liner. The problem is a mix of Bourque's cap hit and his one dimensional skillset. IMO Kostitsyn or Sykora could have filled the same role for cheaper. There are always Wellwoods and Grabners and Omarks available. None of these are fantastic players, but as far as one dimensional 2nd liners go, there are options that require less commitment.
Sykora is a good example as he was cheap but he was also coming off a season where he was injured playing 14 games. Kostitsyn cost 3.25 so right on par, Wellwood made 1.6 and I would expect he will get a raise with a decent season and Grabner makes 3M. If you think players like Grabner are "always available" you need a dose of reality. I wont even respond to Omark, please.

Bourque is more proven than them, brings a physical game and is overpaid by what? 300K? If that warrants a buyout then half the league will get bought out.

edit: Hell Bergevin just signed Prust to a 2.5 and he never topped 13 goals. Where are the riots?


Last edited by OneSharpMarble: 12-29-2012 at 02:37 PM.
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Old
12-29-2012, 02:56 PM
  #42
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Kaberle, bourque, Gomez are all going to be punted . No need to argue about the order in which that will happen.

Their sole purpose now is to make this team as miserably bad as it was last year, but the team will never prosper with such unengaged players.

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12-29-2012, 03:07 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Agreed. I have asked about 20 times for someone to find another 20 goal scoring 3rd liner who gets paid less than 3.3 million and they all go quiet for some reason.
OneSharpMarble,

Would you care for a wager?

How's this,

- Assuming there's a season;
- Assuming Bourque is injured for fewer than half the games;

If Bourque scores at a pace of 21 goals or higher (no rounding), you win, if he scores at a lower pace, I win.

Loser has to start a thread entitled "Why I Was Wrong about Rene Bourque", and then write a 700+ word essay detailing why they're wrong.

Feel free to edit the terms before we finalize.

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12-29-2012, 03:10 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
Kaberle, bourque, Gomez are all going to be punted . No need to argue about the order in which that will happen.

Their sole purpose now is to make this team as miserably bad as it was last year, but the team will never prosper with such unengaged players.
Kaberle is going to be a very useful player this year. He's going to make the 2nd PP unit almost as fearsome as Markov's 1st PP unit. He'll provide secondary scoring on the third line playing with Bouillon.

If we're lucky, he'll be playing at a 30 point pace with limited minutes (which would be incredible) and we can flip him to a contender at the deadline.

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12-29-2012, 03:42 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Kriss E View Post

Also, Bourque looked absolutely horrible last season, but I also think he was completely misused by RC (like pretty much the whole team). You can't make him play along side Plekanec, he can't handle that role. He needs to be either with DD or Eller, getting easier match ups. I'm sure he could do a much better job than last year. We saw how AK could dominate opponents with Eller when facing 3rd liners, I don't see why Bourque wouldn't be able to do the same.
I think this is the crux of the problem. Gauthier traded both Cammalleri and AK and gets Bourque who can't play with Plekanec or play very well with him. We need a winger or two for Pleks and if Bourque can't do it we should send him on his way and use the cap space to find one with the cap space that's freed up.

When or if the cap goes to $60 million there should be a few wingers available that would be suitable for Pleks. I'm not a fan of rejigging the whole team to accomodate Bourque or giving him "easy minutes".

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12-29-2012, 03:44 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
OneSharpMarble,

Would you care for a wager?

How's this,

- Assuming there's a season;
- Assuming Bourque is injured for fewer than half the games;

If Bourque scores at a pace of 21 goals or higher (no rounding), you win, if he scores at a lower pace, I win.

Loser has to start a thread entitled "Why I Was Wrong about Rene Bourque", and then write a 700+ word essay detailing why they're wrong.

Feel free to edit the terms before we finalize.
So if there is a half season (41games), Bourque is healthy and gets decent minutes I think 10 goals is within reason. There is an awful lot of variables involved, if he gets stuck on a line with a different centre, if Galchenyuk is brought into the picture, how will Therien run the team yadda yadda.

I get 10 goals and up, you get single digits.

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Old
12-29-2012, 03:56 PM
  #47
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I think this is the crux of the problem. Gauthier traded both Cammalleri and AK and gets Bourque who can't play with Plekanec or play very well with him. We need a winger or two for Pleks and if Bourque can't do it we should send him on his way and use the cap space to find one with the cap space that's freed up.

When or if the cap goes to $60 million there should be a few wingers available that would be suitable for Pleks. I'm not a fan of rejigging the whole team to accomodate Bourque or giving him "easy minutes".
Good luck finding a top 6 winger capable of shutting down top opponents well and producing at 3.3M. I don't see who would want Bourque if he again is underwhelming.

As for rejigging the whole team to accomodate Bourque, I disagree. It's not about one player, it's about the team.
Keep the DD line intact, then what do you have to give to your best center? Gionta. That's it. Bourque can't play there, although he'd probably have an easier time doing it with Gionta on the other side (as opposed to grinders last year due to Gigi's injury). So, who else? Amrstrong? Prust?
The team, as a whole, would be much better if that DD line was dismantled. Last season was great for MaxPac to play next to Cole. This year, I'd like to see him be the main PF of his line. One of these two should be placed with another center.

I also think it would be much better to have big wingers on every line, say MaxPac with DD, Cole with Plek, Bourque with Eller. Fill in the blanks after with whatever else we have.
I'd add Gionta to Plek-Cole, a solid veteran line where every one of them can play a shutdown role to top opponents while still generating offensive chances.
I'd give Leblanc to DD-MaxPac. That would be my first try out combination. Reliable defensive player with decent offensive capabilities in Leblanc. I think he'd be a good filler there.
In the even that Gally would be tried in Mtl, I'd put him alongside Eller-Bourque as a winger. Sheltered minutes, low role, I'm pretty sure they could dominate opponents especially if Gally actually handles himself well. If not, Prust-Moen-Armstrong can fight for that spot.

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12-29-2012, 04:16 PM
  #48
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If Bourque doesn't play RW for the Canadiens, he's worthless.

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12-29-2012, 04:24 PM
  #49
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You want to keep Bourque? Then fine buyout Gomez & Markov and we're good. There's no easy solutions here, we've got contracts to review in less than 2 seasons + a cap to fit under.

Edit: It's called a sacrifice for a reason.


Last edited by vokiel: 12-29-2012 at 04:30 PM.
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12-29-2012, 04:49 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
If Bourque doesn't play RW for the Canadiens, he's worthless.
Not really, he can play 3rd line duties, Armstrong can play right wing in a complementary role on other lines.

Bourque is not the best target for cap space. Gomez is our compliance buy-out. Kaberle and Gionta become the other options. Kaberle's experience can be endearing to another club and Gionta may be the single one that still has value on the market.

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