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Paul Martin Trade or Buyout? (if there's a season)

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Old
12-29-2012, 11:30 AM
  #26
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by theicebox View Post
I respectfully disagree with your last assertion. Our prospect assets are on D, you trade Martin in this scenario so you can invest his excess caphit on getting the Two-Headed Monster some new Wings.
I was talking about the possibility of Paul Martin turning back the clock and becoming the New Jersey Devils version of Paul Martin...the guy we ALL salivated about when he was there. I'm not talking about the guy we've seen in Pittsburgh, even when he was playing well. The Paul Martin in Jersey was a guy we could use right now. I doubt we'll ever see him again, though.

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12-29-2012, 11:35 AM
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I'm not a huge fan of our system or the lack of skill Martin showed last year, but can we really lose the guy after losing Z, too? I'm just not so sure of that.

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12-29-2012, 11:44 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I'm not a huge fan of our system or the lack of skill Martin showed last year, but can we really lose the guy after losing Z, too? I'm just not so sure of that.
It will be financially required to lose him (or if not him then "$2M Kennedy" + another $1-2M in salary hit), because Letang is going to be making $5-6M season after next. Malkin... will likely take a deal similar to Sid's but shorter in term and higher in hit IMO. Maybe $9-10M hit, 6 year max. Cooke and Dupuis will be up for modest raises in cap hit in 2013-2014 and they're not going anywhere IMO...

...you can fill a roster with only so many "cheap rookie contracts" to avoid a bad cap situation, before you shoot yourself in the foot, competitively. We could replace a Kennedy with a Tangradi, a Michalek with a Despres, etc (in order to keep Martin). But once you start signing the big names, someone with a bigger salary has to go if the cap's around $60M vs. say, $65M.

A couple years ago we could afford to pay Martin that premium. After this season we won't be able to. The odds of Martin being at camp next year (if there is a next year) are about 30:1 IMO.


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12-29-2012, 11:51 AM
  #29
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My first gut instinct is to say, yes, buy him out. But as Jiggy said, where's his replacement? Add to that, Shero has already dumped Michalek, leaving the Pens with Letang, a very shaky Orpik (who was just as much a train wreck as Martin a lot of the time), Niskanen and Engelland as the veterans. That doesn't look like a Cup contender defense, IMO.

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12-29-2012, 11:53 AM
  #30
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
I'm not a huge fan of our system or the lack of skill Martin showed last year, but can we really lose the guy after losing Z, too? I'm just not so sure of that.
Yeah. This sums it up for me, too.

I have an equally dim view of both Paul Martin as a defenseman (for the reasons RRP already laid out) and Disco's defensive scheme. But the team is already short on veteran blueliners, as is. So I don't see a buyout being realistic or necessary. We'll just have to hope Paul Martin can round back into his "serviceably mediocre at everything" halcyon days.

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12-29-2012, 11:57 AM
  #31
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IMO, we're not going to have a Cup Favorite type D for a couple years at least. I think this D is about to be blown up if you want my honest opinion. Martin's days are numbered because of money (his $5M within a $60M cap with other key players getting big raises, is not going to work), Orpik's days are numbered too potentially, because of age and health issues (which makes his $3.75M and likely $4M+ contract in 2014, tough to swallow).

As soon as they think Bennett is ready to help the offense produce more points and give us two genuine scoring lines to make up for it, he's going to rebuild the defense around Letang and one quality, veteran D not currently playing for us. Someone more healthy and about the same age as Orpik.

Basically: Letang, FA vet, Niskanen + Despres + whoever else wins the jobs. Around 2015-2016 we'll have a very well rounded, experienced-enough D to contend with anyone's.

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12-29-2012, 11:59 AM
  #32
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While I do like a mobile defense, I'm not a fan of an overly active defense. Even at his best Martin is a defensemen that is soft and gets paid a lot for a non point producer. I know his game is about transitional passing but its not like he's making these long break away passes up ice.

I'm hoping for some massive changes to Disco's system and Pens hockey. If not by him then someone else.

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12-29-2012, 12:05 PM
  #33
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For some reason I'm fairly confident Martin will return to the level he played at his first season as a Penguin. I think a lot of fans are unfairly holding him to another standard that most other players seem to be getting a pass on after last season. Martin playing at a level he did when he first signed is a very good deal for his cap hit. He is a great skater, smart, and has a very active stick. He didn't show much of that last season but these are not things that completely disappear overnight. He looked lost and confused as did most Penguins defenseman last season.

The change that needs to happen most on defense is from the coaching staff. The Penguins need to simplify their game in their own end. We won with a defense very similar to what the Rangers have been doing of late. A style to lends itself to collapsing around the net and committing on defense. The problem with what they they ran last season is that every scheme seemed to be built around quickly exiting the zone, which is great when it works, but never addressing what happens if things don't immediately transition the way they want. As soon as something didn't go exactly the way the Pens wanted in their own end it was meltdown city. And players that are very impressive when what they are taught to do happens, suddenly look like they have no idea what they are doing on the ice.

A player like Martin came from a very structured environment into one that seems to say "Hey, this is what we want to have happen. If anything else besides that happens, you're on your own.". If the Pens realize what a glaring coaching staff gaffe it was in our own end last year and simplify things, Martin will be a much more valuable player. One that, looking at our depth chart and the ages next to them on defense, we really can't afford to lose as things stand, imo.

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12-29-2012, 12:13 PM
  #34
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I don't disagree with the idea that we need to change our gameplan some too, but I don't think it matters much in this situation. The team will handle the finances and potential hurdles to putting a good team together under a limited cap situation the next couple years first... then work changes into the system if they think they're needed. This team will always put financial flexibility first. Martin and soon to a lesser degree Orpik, hurt this team's financial flexibility.

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12-29-2012, 12:13 PM
  #35
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Respectfully, a good defenseman (regardless of system) doesn't play the gutless, stick-checking, contact-allergy, totally disinterested style of play that Martin exhibited all of last season. I don't much care what he has done before that... the guy was and is supposed to be a leader (if not the leader) on the blueline. I shouldn't flip on the game and watch a completely green Simon Despres making the team's veteran defensive leader look like a nincompoop. On many different occasions.

The system doesn't help any but Martin consistently displayed all of the characteristics last season of a defenseman that this team should ideally want nothing to do with. But I think that the team's situation on defense dictates that we'll have to put up with him for at least a little longer.

Burning the team's one-time buyout is probably more than Martin deserves, honestly.

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12-29-2012, 12:25 PM
  #36
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I guess the Pens keep him for the rest of the season then put him on the trade block in the off season. Nashville and Detroit reportedly showed interest.

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12-29-2012, 12:26 PM
  #37
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I tend to think that if they actually reach a deal and save the season, that $60 million number for the 2013-14 ceiling will have to tick up a bit. So I wouldn't characterize any potential buyout as inevitable. A lot can happen between now and next summer, and I'm thankful the Pens still have Botterill on staff to sort this stuff out.

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12-29-2012, 12:28 PM
  #38
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I wonder if a team can buy a guy out, and then bring him back...it'd sort of work as a restructuring. Most would contend that if a team cut a guy because of his salary that a guy would just move on from that team, but say you're a guy who has roots set down, you want to be with the team who is buying you out, and the team actually wants you, just not at your cap hit.

I'd still like to see a clause in the new CBA that allows for restructuring of deals. There would be more player movement and less albatross contracts, which I think is a good thing.


I also don't think Martin is done. I think he had an average season, but people just remember the bad last season, and not the good. He played a few months of very good hockey.

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12-29-2012, 12:30 PM
  #39
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I'd still like to see a clause in the new CBA that allows for restructuring of deals. There would be more player movement and less albatross contracts, which I think is a good thing.
Absolutely.

I think it would solve more problems than it creates, so long as it was implemented correctly.

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12-29-2012, 12:30 PM
  #40
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It's really hard to say how this defense will look in two years. With every single player being a free agent except Martin who have three seasons left including this maybe our extremely D-heavy drafting will be a blessing in disguise.

http://capgeek.com/penguins/

I am in the camp give Martin this season (if there is one) to show that he belongs or try to trade him this summer. Emergency buy out as a very last resort.

Also even if the cap will become 60M next season remember that any Letang and Malkin extentions wont count until the season after where the cap very well might have increased a bit.

With a 60M cap next season the pens would have 7.5M with Kennedy, Cooke and Dupuis being the only important players to sign.

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12-29-2012, 12:39 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I wonder if a team can buy a guy out, and then bring him back...it'd sort of work as a restructuring. Most would contend that if a team cut a guy because of his salary that a guy would just move on from that team, but say you're a guy who has roots set down, you want to be with the team who is buying you out, and the team actually wants you, just not at your cap hit.

I'd still like to see a clause in the new CBA that allows for restructuring of deals. There would be more player movement and less albatross contracts, which I think is a good thing.


I also don't think Martin is done. I think he had an average season, but people just remember the bad last season, and not the good. He played a few months of very good hockey.
When they had an emergency buy out after the last lockout you werent allowed to resign your player. That was the reason the Penguins ended up with John Leclair.

Say hypotetically the penguins buys out Crosbys deal and the resign him for the same lenght at league minimum. That would be ridiculous. And cap circumvention.

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12-29-2012, 12:46 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
I don't disagree with the idea that we need to change our gameplan some too, but I don't think it matters much in this situation. The team will handle the finances and potential hurdles to putting a good team together under a limited cap situation the next couple years first... then work changes into the system if they think they're needed. This team will always put financial flexibility first. Martin and soon to a lesser degree Orpik, hurt this team's financial flexibility.
I believe that's why they traded Michalek for next to nothing. Shero understands that he made a mistake locking up so much money so suddenly in two free agent defenseman. So he traded one and gained the, perceived at the time, flexibility to see what happens with the other. If he trades/releases/whatever both then it's viewed as quite a failure on his part and any business man knows that saving face is a large part of the battle when things don't go your way. It hurts his reputation amongst other GMs, agents, and fans. Martin isn't going anywhere soon, imo. Michalek wasn't great last year but he was better than Martin in terms of bringing his talents to the table most would agree I'd think and had the smaller cap hit, yet he was the one traded. Shero still sees value in Martin.

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12-29-2012, 12:54 PM
  #43
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When they had an emergency buy out after the last lockout you werent allowed to resign your player. That was the reason the Penguins ended up with John Leclair.

Say hypotetically the penguins buys out Crosbys deal and the resign him for the same lenght at league minimum. That would be ridiculous. And cap circumvention.
That is true.


If the buyout thing happens, it could be interesting as some good players may be switching cities.

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12-29-2012, 01:00 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
Respectfully, a good defenseman (regardless of system) doesn't play the gutless, stick-checking, contact-allergy, totally disinterested style of play that Martin exhibited all of last season. I don't much care what he has done before that... the guy was and is supposed to be a leader (if not the leader) on the blueline. I shouldn't flip on the game and watch a completely green Simon Despres making the team's veteran defensive leader look like a nincompoop. On many different occasions.

The system doesn't help any but Martin consistently displayed all of the characteristics last season of a defenseman that this team should ideally want nothing to do with. But I think that the team's situation on defense dictates that we'll have to put up with him for at least a little longer.

Burning the team's one-time buyout is probably more than Martin deserves, honestly.
Martin was never a physical defenseman. He doesn't need to play very physically to be effective when he is being used correctly.

Do you think it's a matter of Despres being that good, and Martin being that bad? Sure at the time, that was the case. But overall? Where these two players are in their careers? Clearly, Martin wasn't without his own mental breakdowns but the coaching staff is also to blame when a rookie looked to have a better idea of what to do in his own end than a guy who was viewed as a top two-way defenseman in the NHL two years ago. Things don't add up here and the missing money is in the way the coaching staff coaches the defense in their own end.

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12-29-2012, 01:02 PM
  #45
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That is true.


If the buyout thing happens, it could be interesting as some good players may be switching cities.
I wonder if youre allowed to buy out injured players. If that's the case the prime candidates will be Chris Pronger and Marc Savard. I expect a player like Mattias Öhlund will also be bought out. Then you have Gomez and Redden. Though it is possible some team would trade for Gomez to have some free cap millions to reach the floor.

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12-29-2012, 01:02 PM
  #46
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Let's not forget that teams that WERE interested in Paul Martin before the lockout may no longer be interested in him...after losing a lot of money this season.

Currently, Martin has no value. Or negative value, even. Because teams will be all about the bottom line for the next little while. And everybody's last image of Paul Martin was that he played defense like the former Canadian Prime Minister...not the former Devil. Not good.

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12-29-2012, 01:16 PM
  #47
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Now is the time to propose absurd salary shedding trades.

Pittsburgh sends Crosby and Martin to NYI for John Tavares, Andrew MacDonald, and a first round pick!

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12-29-2012, 01:25 PM
  #48
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The fact that Philly will be able to get out of that Pronger deal is sickening to me.

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12-29-2012, 01:51 PM
  #49
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I'm surprised Martin wasn't blamed for the lock out. The first glimpse of there being a season & the first thought out of people is get rid of Martin.

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12-29-2012, 02:18 PM
  #50
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Martin was never a physical defenseman. He doesn't need to play very physically to be effective when he is being used correctly.

Do you think it's a matter of Despres being that good, and Martin being that bad? Sure at the time, that was the case. But overall? Where these two players are in their careers? Clearly, Martin wasn't without his own mental breakdowns but the coaching staff is also to blame when a rookie looked to have a better idea of what to do in his own end than a guy who was viewed as a top two-way defenseman in the NHL two years ago. Things don't add up here and the missing money is in the way the coaching staff coaches the defense in their own end.
I guess I can't really disagree with much of that, at all. If I had to choose one thing to "fix" between the two, it would absolutely be the way this team approaches the defensive side of the game. Not simply dumping Martin who, as you said, can be an effective player if used correctly.

I just don't think Paul Martin, even at his best, is really what this team needs. But obviously Ray Shero disagrees. So we'll just have to see.

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