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Old
12-28-2012, 07:44 PM
  #76
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Sammy is not a better player than Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi at least provides some toughness and ability to play big.

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12-28-2012, 07:46 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Sammy is not a better player than Bertuzzi. Bertuzzi at least provides some toughness and ability to play big.
Samuelsson is better offensively, skates better and is better at defense. Bertuzzi hugging Weber last year and body slamming Phaneuf a few years ago doesn't make him a better player.

Bertuzzi really worked on his defense and skating to keep a roster slot, but besides his usual 2 week hot streak during the middle of the season he's a detriment. Samuelsson has flourished since leaving on both Vancouver and Florida. But the only reason Bertuzzi and/or Samuelsson look bad is because the Wings literally have nothing else. We have to count on these guys when they should be passengers.

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12-28-2012, 08:08 PM
  #78
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Wings should keep Bert just for his shootout skills.

Panthers made the playoffs by winning a billion shootout games.

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12-28-2012, 08:15 PM
  #79
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I'd buy out Quincey so I don't have to keep hearing how awful he is from y'all.

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12-28-2012, 09:25 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Samuelsson is better offensively, skates better and is better at defense. Bertuzzi hugging Weber last year and body slamming Phaneuf a few years ago doesn't make him a better player.

Bertuzzi really worked on his defense and skating to keep a roster slot, but besides his usual 2 week hot streak during the middle of the season he's a detriment. Samuelsson has flourished since leaving on both Vancouver and Florida. But the only reason Bertuzzi and/or Samuelsson look bad is because the Wings literally have nothing else. We have to count on these guys when they should be passengers.
1. I don't think Sammy is better offensively, defensively or at skating. Bertuzzi also has better hockey sense, is stronger along the boards, and gives defensemen something to consider.

Neither guy is a world beater. Sammy has a bigger caphit. He doesn't really offer anything we need now that we have Brunner, Tootoo and Mursak who can shoot right.


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12-28-2012, 09:29 PM
  #81
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1. I don't think Sammy is better offensively, defensively or at skating. Bertuzzi also has better hockey sense, is stronger along the boards, and gives defensemen something to consider.
I think the actual production speaks for itself, Bertuzzi is a mid 30 point player who needs to be saddled next to Datsyuk or a red hot Franzen to produce. He's a good team player though and I think he adds an element this team needs, but him being in the top 6 means this team has major issues.

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12-28-2012, 09:33 PM
  #82
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Neither guy is a world beater. Sammy has a bigger caphit. He doesn't really offer anything we need now that we have Brunner, Tootoo and Mursak who can shoot right.
I don't think Mursak is long for this team, I think he'll probably go down the same road Ritola did. Tootoo plays a different role and while he put up points last year he's not the same type of player Samuelsson is.

The biggest downside to him is that he'll play the point on the powerplay, but that's on Babcock.

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12-28-2012, 09:50 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
I think the actual production speaks for itself, Bertuzzi is a mid 30 point player who needs to be saddled next to Datsyuk or a red hot Franzen to produce. He's a good team player though and I think he adds an element this team needs, but him being in the top 6 means this team has major issues.
Bertuzzi scored fewer points playing on Datsyuk's line than he did in any year of his career where he played 65 games.

He scored 38 points last year after three straight years of 44-44-45.

I have no problem with Bertuzzi as a top sixer as long as your other 5 are legit.

Bertuzzi puts up about 35 even strength points every year.
35-38-34 (71 games)
Here's Franzen's
10 (27 games) 38 43
Here's Sammy's
39 31 18 (54 games)

Sammy is "flourishing" with an even strength point every three games in Florida? Bert with a point every 2 games in Detroit.
Good ol' Shawn Matthias scored more even strength points than Sammy.

To be clear, I don't think either guy helps Detroit much.

But Sammy adds NOTHING that this team needs. Bert, at least, will stick up for a teammate and strike fear into the heart of an opponent from time to time.

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12-28-2012, 09:59 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
Bertuzzi scored fewer points playing on Datsyuk's line than he did in any year of his career where he played 65 games.

He scored 38 points last year after three straight years of 44-44-45.
And while that probably has a lot to do with the lack of talent on the Wings it also says a lot about where Bertuzzi is trending.


Quote:
Sammy is "flourishing" with an even strength point every three games in Florida? Bert with a point every 2 games in Detroit.
Good ol' Shawn Matthias scored more even strength points than Sammy.
Matthias played nearly 30 more games. And I don't really care when players get their points, we could use more players to score on the PP. I don't know (or really think) that will be Samuelsson. Though after last year it can't get much worse.

Quote:
But Sammy adds NOTHING that this team needs. Bert, at least, will stick up for a teammate and strike fear into the heart of an opponent from time to time.
Samuelsson adds things Hudler didn't, but he won't replace the offense. Unfortunately that is the minor upgrade we got when Hudler went to Calgary.

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12-28-2012, 10:11 PM
  #85
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I don't think Mursak is long for this team, I think he'll probably go down the same road Ritola did. Tootoo plays a different role and while he put up points last year he's not the same type of player Samuelsson is.

The biggest downside to him is that he'll play the point on the powerplay, but that's on Babcock.
Well, I don't see it. But I'd buy out Sammy and Keep Ritola.

If the season started Jan 15...

Flip Datsyuk Nyquist
Franzen Zetteberg Brunner
Cleary Helm Tootoo
Bertuzzi Abdelkader Mursak
Miller/Emmerton

I really don't see any reason why in the hell Sammy is on this team.
I don't see much need for Bertuzzi, either. but he's cheaper and has ability to intimidate and stick up for teammates.

By the way:
Even Strength points last year:
Tootoo 28 in 991
Sammy 18 in 719
Bertuzzi 34 in 983

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12-28-2012, 10:37 PM
  #86
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And while that probably has a lot to do with the lack of talent on the Wings it also says a lot about where Bertuzzi is trending.
44-44-45-38 is not a trend. Last year, Bertuzzi missed 10 games after playing 81 and 82 games the previous two years.




Quote:
Matthias played nearly 30 more games. And I don't really care when players get their points, we could use more players to score on the PP. I don't know (or really think) that will be Samuelsson. Though after last year it can't get much worse.
Good that you don't care where a player gets his points. But the reality is that guys who play lots of PP minutes get a great opportunity to score more points.




Quote:
Samuelsson adds things Hudler didn't, but he won't replace the offense. Unfortunately that is the minor upgrade we got when Hudler went to Calgary.
The only thing we gained in the Hudler for Sammy trade is cap space.

Sammy is nowhere near the player Hudler is at this point.

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12-29-2012, 03:14 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Wings should keep Bert just for his shootout skills.

Panthers made the playoffs by winning a billion shootout games.
Panthers had actually rather poor S/O record. 6 wins, 11 losses.

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12-29-2012, 04:24 AM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
But Sammy adds NOTHING that this team needs. Bert, at least, will stick up for a teammate and strike fear into the heart of an opponent from time to time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
Samuelsson adds things Hudler didn't, but he won't replace the offense. Unfortunately that is the minor upgrade we got when Hudler went to Calgary.
Sammy shoots like madman (Babcock loves that) and Bertuzzi whacks those rebounds in. Both of them are needed to have a great team depth.

When we have a great depth, they play less and then also the age factor disappears.

Either of them won't replace Hudler. It's more of Gustav Nyquist who will do that.

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12-29-2012, 04:35 AM
  #89
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The Wings disappoint every one here and buy out an injured Eaves. Honestly I hope they don't but it would not shock me if they did.

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12-29-2012, 07:06 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by RedWings19405 View Post
The Wings disappoint every one here and buy out an injured Eaves. Honestly I hope they don't but it would not shock me if they did.
Doesn't LTIR remain the same way reg. the cap? Why would he need to be bought out then?

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12-29-2012, 12:02 PM
  #91
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Sammy shoots like madman (Babcock loves that) and Bertuzzi whacks those rebounds in. Both of them are needed to have a great team depth.

When we have a great depth, they play less and then also the age factor disappears.

Either of them won't replace Hudler. It's more of Gustav Nyquist who will do that.
If Nyquist (or any rookie) breaks 45 pts that will be a great season. Sammy will score more than him.

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12-29-2012, 01:47 PM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Sammy shoots like madman (Babcock loves that) and Bertuzzi whacks those rebounds in. Both of them are needed to have a great team depth.

When we have a great depth, they play less and then also the age factor disappears.

Either of them won't replace Hudler. It's more of Gustav Nyquist who will do that.
Neither of them are needed.

Having both of them is a prime example of Holland holding back youth to keep over-the-hill, middle-of-the-road players.

If we lose Mursak because of Samuelsson, we've made a big mistake.

I'm dismayed by Holland's recent performance.

Mursak should have been given a shot two years ago. Tatar and Nyquist should have been rookies this year. Kindl should have gotten the shot instead of Salei a couple years ago. Smith should have been a rookie last year.,

Think about the CRASH of rookies we're going to have next year if there is no season.

Tatar. Nyquist. Smith. Brunner. Jarnkrok. Andersson. Lashoff and Mursak, if he's not waived.

Here's who we might lose:
Flip (doubt it.) Cleary (probably) Miller (possibly), Kindl (maybe), White (maybe)

Defense, we're OK. We should have done more to establish Kindl because, IMO, he has the tools. Smith should have had his rookie season last year so we didn't have to waste $4M a year on Quincey.

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12-29-2012, 02:07 PM
  #93
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Neither of them are needed.

Having both of them is a prime example of Holland holding back youth to keep over-the-hill, middle-of-the-road players.

If we lose Mursak because of Samuelsson, we've made a big mistake.

I'm dismayed by Holland's recent performance.

Mursak should have been given a shot two years ago. Tatar and Nyquist should have been rookies this year. Kindl should have gotten the shot instead of Salei a couple years ago. Smith should have been a rookie last year.,

Think about the CRASH of rookies we're going to have next year if there is no season.

Tatar. Nyquist. Smith. Brunner. Jarnkrok. Andersson. Lashoff and Mursak, if he's not waived.

Here's who we might lose:
Flip (doubt it.) Cleary (probably) Miller (possibly), Kindl (maybe), White (maybe)

Defense, we're OK. We should have done more to establish Kindl because, IMO, he has the tools. Smith should have had his rookie season last year so we didn't have to waste $4M a year on Quincey.
I would have said Mursak and Kindl are examples of how Holland was right and they were not ready. Kindl is still a 6th dman. Mursak will never be ready. Them playing would have done nothing but crush them.

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12-29-2012, 02:18 PM
  #94
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I would have said Mursak and Kindl are examples of how Holland was right and they were not ready. Kindl is still a 6th dman. Mursak will never be ready. Them playing would have done nothing but crush them.
If that's the case, why are they playing at all? Kindl is a sixth dman because he never got an opportunity to be anything else. You are wasting roster spots if you actually believe they will never be ready. Either scenario makes it look like Ken Holland screwed up.

Mursak was DOA the second he got hurt and was never given a chance after that.

I really believe that the only reason Holland keeps going with washed up veterans over youth is because, he still views the Wings as contenders. It makes total sense when you look at it from that perspective. You want the veteran presence that makes less mistakes over rookies/younger inexperienced players in the later rounds.

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12-29-2012, 02:58 PM
  #95
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I would have said Mursak and Kindl are examples of how Holland was right and they were not ready. Kindl is still a 6th dman. Mursak will never be ready. Them playing would have done nothing but crush them.
Mursak has good NHL speed and great work ethic. Even if he never becomes a 20 G 40 point guy, he's got NHL written all over him.

Kindl is already a better defenseman than Quincey, in my book.
The difference is that Quincey got top minutes with really bad teams so he has a resume to earn money. But if you watch them, the only thing Quincey does better is go all-out offense (to the point that its a defensive liability) and play physical (but also take lots of really careless, undisciplined penalties).

If and when Kindl is cut, he's going to go to some bottom feeding team, get top 4 minutes and prove he's an NHLer.

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12-29-2012, 03:06 PM
  #96
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If that's the case, why are they playing at all? Kindl is a sixth dman because he never got an opportunity to be anything else. You are wasting roster spots if you actually believe they will never be ready. Either scenario makes it look like Ken Holland screwed up.

Mursak was DOA the second he got hurt and was never given a chance after that.

I really believe that the only reason Holland keeps going with washed up veterans over youth is because, he still views the Wings as contenders. It makes total sense when you look at it from that perspective. You want the veteran presence that makes less mistakes over rookies/younger inexperienced players in the later rounds.
The really stupid part of Holland's thinking is that this isn't a 37-year-old Hull or Robitaille or Larionov.
This is a washed up Bertuzzi (post back injury/Steve Moore incident) and Mikeal Whoopty-Doo Samuelsson.

The other really stupid part of this equation is the idea that veterans win cups.
We've got lots of Vets.
Last year's Kings team had 7 players 25 and under who played 20 games or more.
The Bruins winning team had 7 too.
The Hawks cup winners were one of the youngest in years.

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12-29-2012, 03:07 PM
  #97
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http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-pu...medium=twitter

Hopefully good moves behind the scenes.

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12-29-2012, 04:53 PM
  #98
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If that's the case, why are they playing at all? Kindl is a sixth dman because he never got an opportunity to be anything else. You are wasting roster spots if you actually believe they will never be ready. Either scenario makes it look like Ken Holland screwed up.

Mursak was DOA the second he got hurt and was never given a chance after that.

I really believe that the only reason Holland keeps going with washed up veterans over youth is because, he still views the Wings as contenders. It makes total sense when you look at it from that perspective. You want the veteran presence that makes less mistakes over rookies/younger inexperienced players in the later rounds.
Having a reasonably young dman playing in the 6th spot is waste?. I still think Kindl will continue to get better. I don't mind young players having to earn a roster spot rather than just handing it to them. If Bert and Sammy are as bad as many of the Negitive Nancy's say, any reasonable youngster should be able to take their spot.

We have too many Mursak's in the system and Mursak is one of the worst Mursak's we have.

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12-29-2012, 04:57 PM
  #99
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Mursak has good NHL speed and great work ethic. Even if he never becomes a 20 G 40 point guy, he's got NHL written all over him.

Kindl is already a better defenseman than Quincey, in my book.
The difference is that Quincey got top minutes with really bad teams so he has a resume to earn money. But if you watch them, the only thing Quincey does better is go all-out offense (to the point that its a defensive liability) and play physical (but also take lots of really careless, undisciplined penalties).

If and when Kindl is cut, he's going to go to some bottom feeding team, get top 4 minutes and prove he's an NHLer.
I hope there is a NHL GM out there that thinks like you so we can unload Mursak and get something decent in return. Maybe a grinder with some size.

I agree with you on Kindl (there's a first time for everything) I hope he continues to get more oppertunity and stays with the team.

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12-29-2012, 04:59 PM
  #100
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The really stupid part of Holland's thinking is that this isn't a 37-year-old Hull or Robitaille or Larionov.
This is a washed up Bertuzzi (post back injury/Steve Moore incident) and Mikeal Whoopty-Doo Samuelsson.

The other really stupid part of this equation is the idea that veterans win cups.
We've got lots of Vets.
Last year's Kings team had 7 players 25 and under who played 20 games or more.
The Bruins winning team had 7 too.
The Hawks cup winners were one of the youngest in years.
There are many ways to build a winner. Must be nice to have top 3 draft picks on your team to help the way those teams were built.

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