HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The Business of Hockey
The Business of Hockey Discuss the financial and business aspects of the NHL. Topics may include the CBA, work stoppages, broadcast contracts, franchise sales, and NHL revenues.

Realistically....How many teams should be in the NHL?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-29-2012, 01:22 PM
  #126
MISC*
Negged.
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,691
vCash: 500
Panthers.
Stars.
Ducks.
Yotes.
Jackets.



Get rid of em.


Last edited by MISC*: 12-29-2012 at 01:44 PM.
MISC* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:23 PM
  #127
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
I agree about the trap, it's very detrimental to the game. But here's the thing about the talent pool though is that for example less and less kids play hockey in Canada and Canada should be the the NHL's biggest source of talent. And we can't rely on Europe to save us given their small population. The idea that let's go keep having expansions there's always gonna be players to fill these teams' jerseys is science-fiction, especially considering the reality of hockey in 2012: less available talent, bad markets, bad US economy.
First question: why should Canada be the NHL's biggest source of talent?

Second question: Are further inroads being made into Europe or not?

For the smaller countries, here's how many NHL players they had in their history by 1996, and how many they've had since then:
Austria - 0 in 1996, 6 from 1997-2012
Denmark - 1 by 1996, 6 from 1997-2012
France - 4 by 1996, 3 from 1997-2012
Germany - 9 by 1996, 17 from 1997-2012
Norway - 1 by 1996, 6 from 1997-2012
Switzerland - 2 by 1996, 18 from 1997-2012

Not included are the USSR and former Soviet republics. I can also throw in IIHF rankings over time, which has seen Slovenia go from the bottom to the top division in less than 20 years, that has seen Hungary go from middling to the top division, that has seen Belarus and Latvia surge...

Third question: With natural population growth and shifts, why would there be less available talent even within already-developed countries? We haven't touched on the next wave of Swedish players; 10 years ago, they weren't producing anyone. Slovakia and the Czech Republic both went through an extended lull. And the United States was entirely confined to Minnesota, Massachusetts, and Michigan....now we've seen a resurgence in the European countries, and a huge influx of NHL talent from other American states.

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:34 PM
  #128
Conflicted Habs fan
Registered User
 
Conflicted Habs fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Martinique
Posts: 539
vCash: 50
Out: Columbus, Phoenix, Tennesee, Florida
In: Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, Halifax
= healthy 30 teams

Conflicted Habs fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:37 PM
  #129
DaveG
Mod Supervisor
RIP Kev
 
DaveG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Durham NC
Country: United States
Posts: 30,905
vCash: 2498
32, see if you can stabilize things in Phoenix (have KC, Houston, Hamilton/Toronto 2 as fallback options if that doesn't work), place expansion franchises in Seattle and Quebec.

DaveG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:37 PM
  #130
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
Out: Columbus, Phoenix, Tennesee, Florida
In: Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, Halifax
= healthy 30 teams
Halifax has a population barely bigger than Saskatoon. That's a non-starter from the get go.

SaintPatrick33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:41 PM
  #131
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
32, see if you can stabilize things in Phoenix (have KC, Houston, Hamilton/Toronto 2 as fallback options if that doesn't work), place expansion franchises in Seattle and Quebec.
If any plan is dependent on kc, the league is screwed.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:43 PM
  #132
sandysan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 4,280
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
Out: Columbus, Phoenix, Tennesee, Florida
In: Quebec, Hamilton, Markham, Halifax
= healthy 30 teams
I won't speak to the outs, but Halifax isn't an in any time soon.

sandysan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 01:57 PM
  #133
No Fun Shogun
Global Moderator
34-38-61-10-13
 
No Fun Shogun's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Chicagoland, IL
Country: United States
Posts: 24,622
vCash: 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by MISC View Post
Panthers.
Stars.
Ducks.
Yotes.
Jackets.



Get rid of em.
Only if we get rid of your team as well so as to create a nice and even numbered league. Fair enough?

No Fun Shogun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 02:45 PM
  #134
JETZZZ
Registered User
 
JETZZZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Winnipeg Manitoba
Country: Canada
Posts: 177
vCash: 500
Why the NHL should return to just the original 6 just like how it should have been all along. Get rid of the NHLPA, have a salary cap around $50-70 thousand dollars per player like the good ol days, and have anyone who ever signs with these teams be tied to them for their entire lives.

JETZZZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 03:04 PM
  #135
Riptide
Moderator
 
Riptide's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: Yukon
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,436
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Habsrule View Post
I know that it would never happen but I truly believe that the best way to solve the NHL lockout would be to have less teams.

Their are a bunch of teams who are losing money year after year. I think the best way to get economics back to where they should be would be to cut the fat and lose a few teams.

So the question that I ask here is how many teams should be cut and what teams?
From a talent point of view, if the talent is there (and I firmly believe it is) then we should not be cutting teams - actually we should be adding teams. If the PA would let them, the NHL could come up with a system (and that's really the only issue) that allows teams to be successful (or rather limits their losses).

And before you cut teams, you give them a chance to move. Seattle, Quebec City, Toronto#2/Southern Ontario would all be wildly successful off the ice (not sure about Seattle, but it couldn't be worse than a bunch of the teams at the bottom now).

__________________
"Itís not as if Donald Fehr was lying to us, several players said. Rather, itís as if he has been economical with information, these players believe, not sharing facts these players consider to be vital."
Riptide is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 03:13 PM
  #136
Puckschmuck*
Doan Shall Be Boo'ed
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Winnipeg
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,937
vCash: 131
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
First question: why should Canada be the NHL's biggest source of talent?
Why shouldn't it be? Is this a problem for you?

Puckschmuck* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 03:15 PM
  #137
moosehead81
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Great White North
Country: Canada
Posts: 838
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JETZinmypants View Post
Why the NHL should return to just the original 6 just like how it should have been all along. Get rid of the NHLPA, have a salary cap around $50-70 thousand dollars per player like the good ol days, and have anyone who ever signs with these teams be tied to them for their entire lives.
And you'd pay to watch this?

moosehead81 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 03:22 PM
  #138
JETZZZ
Registered User
 
JETZZZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Winnipeg Manitoba
Country: Canada
Posts: 177
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosehead81 View Post
And you'd pay to watch this?
Id pay to watch the the other 24 teams that left the NHL to form a different league...lets call this hypothetical league the WHA. Then i think we could add 6 more teams: Quebec City, Toronto, Hamilton, Houston, New England, and Seattle.

...but that would just be silly

JETZZZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 03:41 PM
  #139
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 21,272
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JETZinmypants View Post
...lets call this hypothetical league the WHA.
Effectively what your suggesting would be
inevitable. History would simply repeat itself.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 03:51 PM
  #140
Conflicted Habs fan
Registered User
 
Conflicted Habs fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Martinique
Posts: 539
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Halifax has a population barely bigger than Saskatoon. That's a non-starter from the get go.
Well if there's a team in non tradition hockey market, ie: Glendale pop: 191,719, then a team deserves to be in tradition hockey markets: Halifax (pop: 390,096) AND Saskatoon (pop: 222,189).

Conflicted Habs fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 03:54 PM
  #141
Blue Regime
Registered User
 
Blue Regime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Groton, CT
Country: United States
Posts: 711
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
32, see if you can stabilize things in Phoenix (have KC, Houston, Hamilton/Toronto 2 as fallback options if that doesn't work), place expansion franchises in Seattle and Quebec.
Agreed. I would ignore KC though, Toronto area would be the 1st choice, but I'd also look into Portland and Milwaukee, which seem more logical from a business standpoint.

Blue Regime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 04:00 PM
  #142
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
Well if there's a team in non tradition hockey market, ie: Glendale pop: 191,719, then a team deserves to be in tradition hockey markets: Halifax (pop: 390,096) AND Saskatoon (pop: 222,189).
Glendale is smack in the middle Phoenix: Population 4.3 Million. Try again.

SaintPatrick33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 04:02 PM
  #143
Tawnos
Moderator
BoH Mod Only
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 11,276
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Conflicted Habs fan View Post
Well if there's a team in non tradition hockey market, ie: Glendale pop: 191,719, then a team deserves to be in tradition hockey markets: Halifax (pop: 390,096) AND Saskatoon (pop: 222,189).


Phoenix metro, of which Glendale is a part, has 4.2 million people in it. Neither Halifax nor Saskatoon have even a half million. No comparison.

Tawnos is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 04:06 PM
  #144
Kimota
Nation of Poutine
 
Kimota's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: La Vieille Capitale
Country: France
Posts: 21,654
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor Bee View Post
First question: why should Canada be the NHL's biggest source of talent?
Because they are the biggest providers of NHL players and if they stop being that, then we have no NHL.

And the CHL for instance have the best model at producing NHL-ready players as far developement and having the character-players for the NHL. You won't see a James Neal and Milan Lucic come out of Sweden(although from Europe you have an odd cat like Chara).

Quote:
Second question: Are further inroads being made into Europe or not?

For the smaller countries, here's how many NHL players they had in their history by 1996, and how many they've had since then:
Austria - 0 in 1996, 6 from 1997-2012
Denmark - 1 by 1996, 6 from 1997-2012
France - 4 by 1996, 3 from 1997-2012
Germany - 9 by 1996, 17 from 1997-2012
Norway - 1 by 1996, 6 from 1997-2012
Switzerland - 2 by 1996, 18 from 1997-2012

Not included are the USSR and former Soviet republics. I can also throw in IIHF rankings over time, which has seen Slovenia go from the bottom to the top division in less than 20 years, that has seen Hungary go from middling to the top division, that has seen Belarus and Latvia surge...
But how many of them are NHL players? Russia is supposed to be a big country but as far as number of players and quality of them, they have a only a few.

Quote:
Third question: With natural population growth and shifts, why would there be less available talent even within already-developed countries? We haven't touched on the next wave of Swedish players; 10 years ago, they weren't producing anyone. Slovakia and the Czech Republic both went through an extended lull. And the United States was entirely confined to Minnesota, Massachusetts, and Michigan....now we've seen a resurgence in the European countries, and a huge influx of NHL talent from other American states.
No question it's great that other areas of the states are producing players but not enough that it can justify having more NHL teams. And it's not that other countries produce more talent than before, it's that the NHL more easily welcome them. There has been great players in the past from these countries that have never played for the NHL. But now the NHL are tracking the whole planet to find players and they let everyone in.

Kimota is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 04:07 PM
  #145
Mayor Bee
\/me_____you\/
 
Mayor Bee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 14,181
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckschmuck View Post
Why shouldn't it be? Is this a problem for you?
No, I don't care where talent comes from. If Canada started pumping out massive numbers of NFL players, I wouldn't be less likely to watch it and I sure wouldn't sit around and complain about it.

Talent is talent. If I'm going to pay money to watch the best in the world, I don't care if his name is John Smith, Federico Montagna, Akira Fujimoto, or Ekwueme Gbagbo.

Mayor Bee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 04:09 PM
  #146
DaveG
Mod Supervisor
RIP Kev
 
DaveG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Durham NC
Country: United States
Posts: 30,905
vCash: 2498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Regime View Post
Agreed. I would ignore KC though, Toronto area would be the 1st choice, but I'd also look into Portland and Milwaukee, which seem more logical from a business standpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sandysan View Post
If any plan is dependent on kc, the league is screwed.

Yeah trust me, KC's not my first choice even though I listed them first. Just floated out markets off the top of my head that I know have the population and the available arena (or plans for one in the case of TO2/Markham), though Hamilton would need refurbed.

Milwaukee is another good possible natural market. Bradley center can definitely handle a good sized NHL crowd too.

Portland is an interesting one, does anyone know if Paul Allen still has interest in an NHL team?

DaveG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 04:10 PM
  #147
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 21,272
vCash: 500
Admittedly Conflicted Habs fans analogy missed the mark by about the distance from the Earth to the Moon, however, his translation was literal & therefore accurate. Obviously Amalgamation wouldve gone far in the case of what Glendales up against... but even then and at that, Phoenix proper isnt in the greatest of shape, and Im not so sure the thought of Amalgamation in places like Scottsdale & Cave Creek, the wealthier enclaves throughout the Valley would be well received. Eventually it'll happen, bound to, but not soon enough to potentially save the Coyotes.

Killion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 04:34 PM
  #148
TwistedWrister90
Registered User
 
TwistedWrister90's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Chicago
Country: United States
Posts: 4,301
vCash: 500
I don't understand why so many people would get rid of the Stars. Texas is a great sports market.


Last edited by TwistedWrister90: 12-29-2012 at 04:41 PM.
TwistedWrister90 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 05:00 PM
  #149
SaintPatrick33
Conn Smythe Winner
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Admittedly Conflicted Habs fans analogy missed the mark by about the distance from the Earth to the Moon, however, his translation was literal & therefore accurate. Obviously Amalgamation wouldve gone far in the case of what Glendales up against... but even then and at that, Phoenix proper isnt in the greatest of shape, and Im not so sure the thought of Amalgamation in places like Scottsdale & Cave Creek, the wealthier enclaves throughout the Valley would be well received. Eventually it'll happen, bound to, but not soon enough to potentially save the Coyotes.
I believe at some point the Coyotes are going to be gone from Phoenix. It's just laughable that anyone would suggest dropping them in a town as small as Halifax.

SaintPatrick33 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-29-2012, 05:12 PM
  #150
Conflicted Habs fan
Registered User
 
Conflicted Habs fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montreal
Country: Martinique
Posts: 539
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Glendale is smack in the middle Phoenix: Population 4.3 Million. Try again.
Glendale is a suburb where no-one in Phoenix wants to go

Conflicted Habs fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:33 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.