HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Detroit Red Wings
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Lockout talk thread

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-29-2012, 04:11 PM
  #101
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 8,173
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TS Quint View Post
Having a reasonably young dman playing in the 6th spot is waste?. I still think Kindl will continue to get better. I don't mind young players having to earn a roster spot rather than just handing it to them. If Bert and Sammy are as bad as many of the Negitive Nancy's say, any reasonable youngster should be able to take their spot.

We have too many Mursak's in the system and Mursak is one of the worst Mursak's we have.
Corey Emmerton is the worst Mursak we have.

We simply do not know what Mursak is capable of on the NHL level.

There is no potential upside by bringing back Sammy and Bert. You know what you are getting, but you also know what you arent getting. At this point, going with the unknown makes more sense than bringing back players like Bert and Sammy. Ken Holland has become far too conservative and refuses to play the kids anymore. Brendan Smith got burned because of this, and instead of him having his rookie year last year, he is now going to have it this year with almost no training camp and no Lidstrom to help him out.

Bob has accurately described the situation Kindl will eventually be in. Quincey 2.0

He made his fair share of mistakes last season and i complained about it, but bringing in CC and basically making Kindl the 7th dman again is a complete waste. You really think CC is going to be the 7th man? That has Kindl written all over it.

We have a billion prospects, but dont know if any of them are good enough to play at the NHL level because they arent being given a chance. This is only going to get worse, and the Wings are going to lose talent because of it.

We dont have the next Datsyuk or Z and Lidstrom waiting to take over the team like we did last time when the Yzerman era finally came to an end. Wings are in a transitional period, but with nobody waiting to take the baton. Playing your prospects is the only way you can figure out if you have anybody who can fill that role.

WingedWheel1987 is offline  
Old
12-29-2012, 04:24 PM
  #102
RedWingsNow*
SaskatoonDeathSquad
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Ann Arbor
Country: Canada
Posts: 23,356
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TS Quint View Post
There are many ways to build a winner. Must be nice to have top 3 draft picks on your team to help the way those teams were built.
We have the young talent. We choose to let it rot in favor of Ken Holland's "Let's Reunite the Old Gang" philosophy of team building

RedWingsNow* is offline  
Old
12-29-2012, 04:29 PM
  #103
Henkka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,825
vCash: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
We have a billion prospects, but dont know if any of them are good enough to play at the NHL level because they arent being given a chance. This is only going to get worse, and the Wings are going to lose talent because of it.

We dont have the next Datsyuk or Z and Lidstrom waiting to take over the team like we did last time when the Yzerman era finally came to an end. Wings are in a transitional period, but with nobody waiting to take the baton. Playing your prospects is the only way you can figure out if you have anybody who can fill that role.
The team will change pretty fast in the next three years after this current season.

Cory Emmerton, Jan Mursak and Jakub Kindl are borderline NHLrs, Curt Fraser products. We wasted all these last 4 years with bad development at farm system because of Fraser. Or maybe we drafted bad. We didn't have enough prospects and enough good prospects to put in for now and the latest years, that why Bert and Sammy are there.

But everything will change in the years between 2013-16. And it changes fast. Those drafts from 2010 and 2011 looks ten times promising than the years before them. And Blashill is doing unbelieveable work at Grand Rapids. Team is winning with prospects and Fraser couldn't build a winning team with veterans!

I just don't understand why you others can't see it. I see a clear path in our organizational planning. Change will come. Whining doesn't help. Bertuzzi and Sammy play their contracts out.

Just. Be. Patient.

Henkka is offline  
Old
12-29-2012, 04:46 PM
  #104
Heaton
Moderator
#disapointment
 
Heaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 16,931
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Heaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Bob View Post
We have the young talent. We choose to let it rot in favor of Ken Holland's "Let's Reunite the Old Gang" philosophy of team building
And that's the biggest problem. If this team didn't have Miller and Cleary I don't see it being an issue. And I agree with you that having both Samuelsson and Bertuzzi is redundant, so buying out one is a good idea. I just think Samuelsson adds more to the team - but we won't agree on that.

I don't think anyone (besides the ghost of HiHD) could make sense of what Holland has done the last few years. It's completely baffling.

Heaton is offline  
Old
12-29-2012, 04:48 PM
  #105
Heaton
Moderator
#disapointment
 
Heaton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Rochester, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 16,931
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Heaton
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Sammy shoots like madman (Babcock loves that) and Bertuzzi whacks those rebounds in. Both of them are needed to have a great team depth.

When we have a great depth, they play less and then also the age factor disappears.

Either of them won't replace Hudler. It's more of Gustav Nyquist who will do that.
I agree. Adding a guy who shoots a lot more will help with this teams offense and defense. And while people complained about Samuelsson's shot selection - the mere fact he isn't going to pass up good opportunities is a plus.

Heaton is offline  
Old
12-29-2012, 05:00 PM
  #106
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 8,173
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
The team will change pretty fast in the next three years after this current season.

Cory Emmerton, Jan Mursak and Jakub Kindl are borderline NHLrs, Curt Fraser products. We wasted all these last 4 years with bad development at farm system because of Fraser. Or maybe we drafted bad. We didn't have enough prospects and enough good prospects to put in for now and the latest years, that why Bert and Sammy are there.

But everything will change in the years between 2013-16. And it changes fast. Those drafts from 2010 and 2011 looks ten times promising than the years before them. And Blashill is doing unbelieveable work at Grand Rapids. Team is winning with prospects and Fraser couldn't build a winning team with veterans!

I just don't understand why you others can't see it. I see a clear path in our organizational planning. Change will come. Whining doesn't help. Bertuzzi and Sammy play their contracts out.

Just. Be. Patient.
I have been patient.

This was supposed to be the season that Ken Holland finally addressed what this team needed. (Legit top six player and after Lidstrom retired a top pairing dman) Instead, we got Samuelsson, a player we used as a joke months before he got signed saying that Holland's biggest acquisition would be Mikael Samuelsson. It's scary how predictable Holland has become.

Two more years of Bert and Sammy is ridiculous. I dont have a problem seeing the kids take those roles. Give them a shot, and maybe you get somebody with a much higher ceiling than either of those players.

Ken Holland still thinks this team is 1-2 tweaks from contending, and i disagree. We saw what 1-2 tweaks got us. A 1st round exit where the Predators absolutely annihilated the Wings.

I wasn't fully on board with Holland's philosophy on signing veterans while Lidstrom was still around but i at least could understand where he was coming from. One last go for the captain..........blahh........blahhh.......blah, you get what i'm saying. Lidstrom is gone, and this team is the worst team defensively in the division. (excluding the Jackets obviously, but they arent an NHL team in my book) Chicago has Ray Charles in net, but i still think they are better defensively and Corey Crawford has shown he can beat the Wings.

Right now it looks like this

Blues
Preds/Hawks
Wings
Jackets

The additions made this year resulted in a net loss of talent.

The lockout hurts the Wings even more since Brendan Smith has had zero training camp and will get 3-4 games to get ready when the season does start.

As for Mursak, i will withhold judgement until i at least see him play one full season.

WingedWheel1987 is offline  
Old
12-29-2012, 06:09 PM
  #107
Winger98
Moderator
powers combined
 
Winger98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 13,825
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Winger98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heaton View Post
And that's the biggest problem. If this team didn't have Miller and Cleary I don't see it being an issue. And I agree with you that having both Samuelsson and Bertuzzi is redundant, so buying out one is a good idea. I just think Samuelsson adds more to the team - but we won't agree on that.

I don't think anyone (besides the ghost of HiHD) could make sense of what Holland has done the last few years. It's completely baffling.
Holland seems to have a list of things he wants to improve from year to year but he seems to strangely lack a vision of how he wants the team to come together as a whole. I can understand why he went after Sammy and Tootoo, but that was half the job - he didn't make any corresponding moves after that to continue shaping the roster.

__________________
blah, blah, blah
Winger98 is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 12:33 AM
  #108
TS Quint
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 504
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
Corey Emmerton is the worst Mursak we have.

We simply do not know what Mursak is capable of on the NHL level.

There is no potential upside by bringing back Sammy and Bert. You know what you are getting, but you also know what you arent getting. At this point, going with the unknown makes more sense than bringing back players like Bert and Sammy. Ken Holland has become far too conservative and refuses to play the kids anymore. Brendan Smith got burned because of this, and instead of him having his rookie year last year, he is now going to have it this year with almost no training camp and no Lidstrom to help him out.

Bob has accurately described the situation Kindl will eventually be in. Quincey 2.0

He made his fair share of mistakes last season and i complained about it, but bringing in CC and basically making Kindl the 7th dman again is a complete waste. You really think CC is going to be the 7th man? That has Kindl written all over it.

We have a billion prospects, but dont know if any of them are good enough to play at the NHL level because they arent being given a chance. This is only going to get worse, and the Wings are going to lose talent because of it.
We dont have the next Datsyuk or Z and Lidstrom waiting to take over the team like we did last time when the Yzerman era finally came to an end. Wings are in a transitional period, but with nobody waiting to take the baton. Playing your prospects is the only way you can figure out if you have anybody who can fill that role.
Emmerton being a bad player doesn't make Mursak any better.

The down side of Sammy is 40 points. The upside is 55. You have a pretty good idea of what you are going to get, he has proven it year after year.

You are already going to write off Kindl? So much for letting the young guys play. But just another example of you talking out of both sides of your mouth to say Holland is doing something wrong. One post you are saying let the kids play the next you want to cut them after 100 NHL games. Give him a year or two he could be a good 4th dman. But he will have to EARN it.

If a prospect isn't good enough at a lower level they clearly are not good enough at the highest level. If they can't play well enough at the lower level throwing them in the NHL isn't going to make them any better.


Last edited by TS Quint: 12-30-2012 at 12:47 AM.
TS Quint is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 01:09 AM
  #109
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 8,173
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TS Quint View Post
Emmerton being a bad player doesn't make Mursak any better.

The down side of Sammy is 40 points. The upside is 55. You have a pretty good idea of what you are going to get, he has proven it year after year.

You are already going to write off Kindl? So much for letting the young guys play. But just another example of you talking out of both sides of your mouth to say Holland is doing something wrong. One post you are saying let the kids play the next you want to cut them after 100 NHL games. Give him a year or two he could be a good 4th dman. But he will have to EARN it.

If a prospect isn't good enough at a lower level they clearly are not good enough at the highest level. If they can't play well enough at the lower level throwing them in the NHL isn't going to make them any better.
What? I have Kindl written off because the Wings have completely stopped giving their young players any chance to succeed. Kindl should have already played way more games. I am writing him off because i am expecting the Wings to give him mop up duty with no chance to improve his game and sign more veterans who eat up ice time.

The down side of Sammy is his age catching up with him and sucking it up at 3 million per year.

WingedWheel1987 is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 02:17 AM
  #110
Bench
Moderator
Realgud!
 
Bench's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Monk's
Posts: 7,227
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
The down side of Sammy is his age catching up with him and sucking it up at 3 million per year.
Oh noes! Only 9 million dollars of cap space remaining... on a completely full roster that includes 16 forwards.

The Wings have a lot of issues to address if they want to be a top contender, but cap management isn't one of them.

If Sammy sucks, it's just money out of pocket for the owner. Worry not, they got a pretty sweet deal on the incentives to built the new arena.

Bench is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 07:06 AM
  #111
TS Quint
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 504
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
What? I have Kindl written off because the Wings have completely stopped giving their young players any chance to succeed. Kindl should have already played way more games. I am writing him off because i am expecting the Wings to give him mop up duty with no chance to improve his game and sign more veterans who eat up ice time.

The down side of Sammy is his age catching up with him and sucking it up at 3 million per year.
So the only way for Holland and Co. to be right is to give Kindl a position he hasn't earned. Ok, I don't know how we will find common ground.

Sammy is getting paid 3rd line money and cap space isn't an issue. Its not that bad. Sure a roster spot is being taken. But he offers size that the other forwards don't have and that is something this team needs badly.

TS Quint is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 07:19 AM
  #112
Henkka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,825
vCash: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by TS Quint View Post
Sammy is getting paid 3rd line money and cap space isn't an issue. Its not that bad. Sure a roster spot is being taken. But he offers size that the other forwards don't have and that is something this team needs badly.
Yeah, gritty 3rd line player, annoying to play against, right handness needed in a team full of lefties (different story at Anaheim on St. Louis), draws penalties more than takes, shoot-first mentality creates free puck in front of the net, TOP2-4 greatest takeaway ratio compared to our forwards, reliable defensively, power-play quarterback option etc.

Sure, he shoots wide and loses the puck at point, but those are only minor things that look big and people will overreact in them because they don't see those good things Sammy does. But Babcock knows them, that's fine for me, I don't care what people whine here. He is worth of his paycheck.


Last edited by Henkka: 12-30-2012 at 07:53 AM.
Henkka is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 11:03 AM
  #113
Fine young man
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Fine young man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 238
vCash: 1268
You guys might be forgetting that if we get a new CBA soon, there might be some trades. There was some talk before the lockout but they slowed down after the CBA expired - obviously a bit difficult to make trades without knowing what the CBA would be...

Fine young man is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 12:47 PM
  #114
sarcastro
Registered User
 
sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine young man View Post
You guys might be forgetting that if we get a new CBA soon, there might be some trades. There was some talk before the lockout but they slowed down after the CBA expired - obviously a bit difficult to make trades without knowing what the CBA would be...
Good point - it's impossible to say what the league might look like after the dust settles on this. IF the dust ever does settle on this new CBA. Supposedly there will be one amnesty/buyout available per team. Who's to say the Wings won't decide they like what the kids are doing in GR and cut one of the older guys loose?

I don't think they will, but it's possible...

For the first time since July, I think there's a chance there will be an agreement. This latest proposal by the NHL is finally in the ballpark. I'd expect the PA to counter with some tweaks, but the overall framework is finally realistic and is something close to what a final deal might look like.

sarcastro is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 01:01 PM
  #115
Henkka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,825
vCash: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fine young man View Post
You guys might be forgetting that if we get a new CBA soon, there might be some trades. There was some talk before the lockout but they slowed down after the CBA expired - obviously a bit difficult to make trades without knowing what the CBA would be...
Our roster situation is like we could trade forward + defenceman in a package for a better defenceman.

Filppula + Kindl <> Bouwmeester?

or something

then waive Emmerton if Eaves is healthy and we are ready.

Franzen - Zeta - Brunner
Bertuzzi - Dats - Nyquist
Cleary - Helm - Sammy
Mursak - AKader - Tootoo
(Miller, Eaves)

Bouwmeester - White
Kronwall - Ericsson
Quincey - Smith
Cocacola

Howard
Gustavsson

Henkka is offline  
Old
12-30-2012, 02:40 PM
  #116
InjuredChoker
Registered User
 
InjuredChoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: LTIR or golf course
Posts: 17,902
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Our roster situation is like we could trade forward + defenceman in a package for a better defenceman.

Filppula + Kindl <> Bouwmeester?

or something

then waive Emmerton if Eaves is healthy and we are ready.

Franzen - Zeta - Brunner
Bertuzzi - Dats - Nyquist
Cleary - Helm - Sammy
Mursak - AKader - Tootoo
(Miller, Eaves)

Bouwmeester - White
Kronwall - Ericsson
Quincey - Smith
Cocacola

Howard
Gustavsson
I'd be ok with that but Calgary won't do that trade imo.

InjuredChoker is offline  
Old
01-01-2013, 09:23 PM
  #117
sarcastro
Registered User
 
sarcastro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 12,245
vCash: 663
Quote:
Originally Posted by kemisti View Post
I'd be ok with that but Calgary won't do that trade imo.
3 months of Flip and a borderline 3rd pair Dman? That's not going to get you very far even when teams have a bloated cap number they need to dump.

sarcastro is offline  
Old
01-03-2013, 08:05 AM
  #118
loojay
Registered User
 
loojay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 217
vCash: 500
Cox is reporting a possibility of two buyouts per team now.

I don't know if I'd buyout anyone on the team but say it was mandated...as much as I root for him I'd think about buying out Bertuzzi. That second year is unecessary. But the forwards do lose a lot of size with him gone.

I dunno... Use the 2nd one on Sammy? Won't happen though - again the size issue and plus they just signed him and Holland does love his retreads.

loojay is offline  
Old
01-03-2013, 08:14 AM
  #119
loojay
Registered User
 
loojay's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 217
vCash: 500
Forgot link:

http://thestar.blogs.com/thespin/201...ight-hour.html

loojay is offline  
Old
01-03-2013, 09:39 AM
  #120
Vladdy84
L-O-Y-A-L-T-Y
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 7,792
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by loojay View Post
Cox is reporting a possibility of two buyouts per team now.

I don't know if I'd buyout anyone on the team but say it was mandated...as much as I root for him I'd think about buying out Bertuzzi. That second year is unecessary. But the forwards do lose a lot of size with him gone.

I dunno... Use the 2nd one on Sammy? Won't happen though - again the size issue and plus they just signed him and Holland does love his retreads.
I was just going to suggest the same. Buyout Bert and Sammy next year. Cleary will be a FA. And Bring over Iron Hook. Excellent opportunity to drop some old baggage and bring in some youth and perhaps go big after a FA forward again like Perry over maybe some that gets bought out.

Vladdy84 is offline  
Old
01-03-2013, 10:03 AM
  #121
solo16
Registered User
 
solo16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: CT
Posts: 3,574
vCash: 728
Bertuzzi and Sammy are fine. Sammy is a decent pickup who is rock steady as a supporting winger. Realistically none of our prospects have the consistency or size of these two.

We can also be sure that they will both spend time on the IR due to their age and history. Opening up opportuntiies for our young guys to play them out of a job.

Worst case: 1. Steady veteran wingers with size/skill 2. Prospects get a shot to play at the NHL 10-30 games and win a job (and keep their next contract reasonable). 3. Veteran wingers will hopefully be healthy and rested for playoffs.

Whats the downside?

solo16 is offline  
Old
01-03-2013, 10:19 AM
  #122
ProPAIN
I am the Danger!
 
ProPAIN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Paris
Country: Belgium
Posts: 11,515
vCash: 500
Only three players could/should be bought out: Bertuzzi, Samuelsson and Franzen. I think Franzen still has something to offer even with that contract length. Bertuzzi and Samuelsson have one more season after this. I don't think Holland will opt to buy-out any players. If he does, I think it should be Bert and Sammy. There is enough depth on this team to replace them.

ProPAIN is offline  
Old
01-03-2013, 10:30 AM
  #123
WingedWheel1987
Ken Holland's office
 
WingedWheel1987's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: GPP Michigan
Posts: 8,173
vCash: 500
Bert, Sammy and Franzen all need to go. Realistically, none of them will be bought out.

Maybe you can trade Franzen, like propain said.

WingedWheel1987 is offline  
Old
01-03-2013, 10:38 AM
  #124
Winger98
Moderator
powers combined
 
Winger98's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Cleveland
Posts: 13,825
vCash: 500
Send a message via Yahoo to Winger98
the guy I'd buy out is Eaves. We don't know if we'd still be able to bury him on LTIR, and I don't have a lot of faith in him coming back as anything close to what he was - at least not without another full season under his belt to get his legs back. Just buy him out and start cleaning up the roster congestion for next season.

Any other buyout would depend on how healthy our guys are from playing in Europe/Russia. Even if we want to buy Bert out, it's not going to happen if we already have two or three regulars who could be going straight to LTIR/IR. If we can, though, I'd consider buying Bert out because we don't know how his body will react to the extended layoff, and it could be better off in the long term just moving a kid into that spot - or making room to sign a better FA over the following summer.

edit: I think there's quite a bit of upside to a guy who has scored at least 27 goals in four of the past five years. People want to slam his effort or whatever, but you're not going to replace that production cheaply or from within.

Winger98 is offline  
Old
01-03-2013, 10:41 AM
  #125
Henkka
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 8,825
vCash: 528
Quote:
Originally Posted by Winger98 View Post
Even if we want to buy Bert out, it's not going to happen if we already have two or three regulars who could be going straight to LTIR/IR. If we can, though, I'd consider buying Bert out because we don't know how his body will react to the extended layoff, and it could be better off in the long term just moving a kid into that spot - or making room to sign a better FA over the following summer.
I guarantee this 3-4 month extra rest it's nothing but positive for older bodies.

Henkka is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.