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International Tournaments Discuss international tournaments such as the World Juniors, Olympic hockey, and Ice Hockey World Championships, as they take place; or discuss past tournaments.

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Old
12-29-2012, 03:30 PM
  #576
habsfanatics
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
If that was actually the case, he could have tried harder, and kept his shoulder up in the head region instead of dropping it into his chest... but he didn't. He also could have taken some extra strides... but he didn't. He also could have lunged into the hit... but he didn't.

All in all, pretty bad attempt to take a head off, if that's your claim of his intent.
An exaggeration. I don't think he targeted the head specifically, but I do think that it was an attempt to hurt a vulnerable player while maintaining a somewhat legal body positioning, as in to not draw a penalty, but imo, I think the hitter needs to lay up in these scenarios, he could of got the job done without barreling over him. Look, I love hitting, and speculation on intent is iffy, neither of us can say with absolute certainty what was going on here, but I'd prefer players safety over these type of hits.

I've got no bone to pick here. I'm not big into the nationalistic pride. I cheer for my favorite players regardless of their sweaters. It looked like a charge to me.

I'm not going to sit on here and bash Europeans for their interpretations or tell them to go watch womens hockey for having an opinion. It's all pretty childish imo. It really doesn't mean that much to me as I have no stake in this.

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12-29-2012, 03:30 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Zybalto View Post
If Mikus is really as hurt as he made out, he's not coming back for the game, let alone the next shift....and stop defending extremely dangerous play just because it's a member of your own country. That knee was nasty.
Oh hello to the past! How's living in the 80's?

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12-29-2012, 03:32 PM
  #578
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
The fan in me makes me want the same thing. I hope they keep "punishing" (punishing for what?) their opponents and keep getting game misconducts. Hopefully their opponents cash in on power plays.
Have you ever played a contact sport? Do you know what the phrase punishing means in this context. I'm serious just asking.

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12-29-2012, 03:36 PM
  #579
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Originally Posted by helgo View Post
Oh hello to the past! How's living in the 80's?


Very clever....

I say I'm fine with the Lipon suspension but complain that there should be more consistency with the officiating and that faking injuries should not be allowed while you defend brutal knee jobs and faking injuries and bad refs as long as they help your team.....and you say IM a homer.

Whatever, I'm done with your silliness.

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12-29-2012, 03:37 PM
  #580
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Originally Posted by KulleKing View Post
Rapac went straight on and did not even move his feet to hit scheissele, Getzlaf turned towards the player with a bent knee. Gee...
The first was trying to avoid a collision knowing he was going to come out second best, the second was trying to finish the hit. Both resulted in kneeing types of penalties.

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12-29-2012, 03:43 PM
  #581
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Actually, a good strategy along this line of thinking would be to dress 3 or 4 players who are really weak, sickly, and susceptible to injuries very easily, perhaps by something as simple as rubbing up against a Canadian during a face-off. Never mind being able to keep their heads up as the puck comes around the boards, they don't even have to know how to skate really. This way your team can have 3 or 4 major penalty power plays, and eliminate Canadian players from the game.
THIS. Honestly, teams know that all they have to do is fake an injury against us and they will get a 5 minute pp, expect it to continue. I would LOVE to see a north american ref call diving on one of the euro players, would make my day.

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12-29-2012, 04:17 PM
  #582
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Again, I don't really make a distinction between "clean" and "dirty" hits. They both intend to hurt, injure, and whatever. "If you can't beat them in skill, beat them up." Again, I realize my view is an outlier, hardly ever to be accepted, especially by Canadian hockey fans. Still this is how I feel. Before you go on: I don't like golf, women's hockey, or whatever. I like hockey. More specifically, the hockey of Gretzky, Sakic, Fedorov, and Lidstrom. Not of Clarke, Stevens, and Lemieux.
Then quite honestly, and I mean no disrespect, you have no business commenting on collisions in hockey.

This would be like me saying I am a baseball fan who prefers it when they don't pitch, but rather hit the ball off a tee. As a Canadian, I have the right to say that without expecting a die hard Yankees fan to think I have a clue what I am talking about. You are correct that your views (and you are welcome to them) will not be accepted by hockey fans in Canada, where the sport has roots and flourishes, much like baseball in the USA.

You like rec hockey. I have played rec hockey. It's not real hockey. It is hockey for the old, fat, and slow...much like myself.

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12-29-2012, 04:35 PM
  #583
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Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
Then quite honestly, and I mean no disrespect, you have no business commenting on collisions in hockey.

This would be like me saying I am a baseball fan who prefers it when they don't pitch, but rather hit the ball off a tee. As a Canadian, I have the right to say that without expecting a die hard Yankees fan to think I have a clue what I am talking about. You are correct that your views (and you are welcome to them) will not be accepted by hockey fans in Canada, where the sport has roots and flourishes, much like baseball in the USA.

You like rec hockey. I have played rec hockey. It's not real hockey. It is hockey for the old, fat, and slow...much like myself.
If the hockey played by Gretzky etc. was "recreational," then god bless him. I have as much right to comment on any aspect of the game that I love as anyone else. There are parts of the game that I would like to see changed. Hitting is one of them. And it's not like the game hasn't changed, and Canada (and NHL) hasn't adapted.

I don't know first thing about baseball, so your analogy misses me completely. Whoosh...

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12-29-2012, 04:37 PM
  #584
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Originally Posted by Hynh View Post
Blatant knee first hit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVeNe6uLuvg&#t=29s

Slovak cutting to avoid being hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ad8amQlXKa8&#t=56s



At least I take the effort to spell the player's name right.
They're both legitimate kneeing penalties, and in both instances the receiving player is trying to avoid the oncoming hit.

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Old
12-29-2012, 05:02 PM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
If the hockey played by Gretzky etc. was "recreational," then god bless him. I have as much right to comment on any aspect of the game that I love as anyone else. There are parts of the game that I would like to see changed. Hitting is one of them. And it's not like the game hasn't changed, and Canada (and NHL) hasn't adapted.

I don't know first thing about baseball, so your analogy misses me completely. Whoosh...
One of the best parts of Gretzky's game was understanding the physicality, and developing the elusiveness and awareness required to be that productive despite being the target, physically, of every opposing player. That involves knowing who is on the ice, where you are on the ice, and how little time you have to move the puck against top players.

Evolution and adaptation has always worked through culling of the "unfit" in the herd. In hockey, those who can't keep their heads up or handle the physicality inevitably get eliminated from the gene pool. This isn't recreational hockey, it's a development step for the best juniors in the world on their way to professional hockey (which, for the best among them looking to play on the biggest and most lucrative world stage, means the NHL). Asking them to give less than 100% on every play is asking them to commit career suicide, and those who can't handle facing teams of players giving 100% should be exposed by the time they hit this level.

Hockey isn't as legendary as it is because of the kind of fire wagon 9-7 hockey that we see at all-star games. It's because of the respect earned by the greats who survive the physicality long enough to establish highly productive and successful careers. The Sakics/Yzermans/Messiers get more respect (and have more "appeal") as a result than, say, "higher" talents who didn't survive, such as Kariya and Lindros. Without the element of "survival", hockey is just a less-understood sport that might be lucky to rival field hockey in terms of global interest and fan base "passion".

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12-29-2012, 05:04 PM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
One of the best parts of Gretzky's game was understanding the physicality, and developing the elusiveness and awareness required to be that productive despite being the target, physically, of every opposing player. That involves knowing who is on the ice, where you are on the ice, and how little time you have to move the puck against top players.

Evolution and adaptation has always worked through culling of the "unfit" in the herd. In hockey, those who can't keep their heads up or handle the physicality inevitably get eliminated from the gene pool. This isn't recreational hockey, it's a development step for the best juniors in the world on their way to professional hockey. Asking them to give less than 100% on every play is asking them to commit career suicide, and those who can't handle facing teams of players giving 100% should be exposed by the time they hit this level.

Hockey isn't as legendary as it is because of the kind of fire wagon 9-7 hockey that we see at all-star games. It's because of the respect earned by the greats who survive the physicality long enough to establish highly productive and successful careers. The Sakics/Yzermans/Messiers get more respect (and have more "appeal") as a result than, say, "higher" talents who didn't survive, such as Kariya and Lindros. Without the element of "survival", hockey is just a less-understood sport that might be lucky to rival field hockey in terms of global interest and fan base "passion".
Yes yes yes,

We are asking our athletes to respond to NATURE here in North America....not NURTURE..

Biology 101...

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12-29-2012, 05:22 PM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
If the hockey played by Gretzky etc. was "recreational," then god bless him. I have as much right to comment on any aspect of the game that I love as anyone else. There are parts of the game that I would like to see changed. Hitting is one of them. And it's not like the game hasn't changed, and Canada (and NHL) hasn't adapted.

I don't know first thing about baseball, so your analogy misses me completely. Whoosh...
Of course you can comment, but if you are going to take a stand on removing hitting from hockey, then you have about as much chance of convincing people here of that as you do going on a football board and wanting tackling out of the game.

As for Canada not adapting, let's have another best on best and see who needs to adapt. Can't wait for the next Olympics.

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Old
12-29-2012, 05:23 PM
  #588
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post

Hockey isn't as legendary as it is because of the kind of fire wagon 9-7 hockey that we see at all-star games. It's because of the respect earned by the greats who survive the physicality long enough to establish highly productive and successful careers. The Sakics/Yzermans/Messiers get more respect (and have more "appeal") as a result than, say, "higher" talents who didn't survive, such as Kariya and Lindros. Without the element of "survival", hockey is just a less-understood sport that might be lucky to rival field hockey in terms of global interest and fan base "passion".
First of all, soccer that is so maligned around these parts is much more popular and much more lucrative, with all its diving and acting. NHL would kill to have a fraction of UEFA's revenues.

Second, some of the best hockey ever played was the 87 Canada Cup, all three games being 6-5. Guess what, even a typical All Star Game is more exciting than a Minnesota-Columbus regular season game, with all its "passion," "heart" and "survival." I want to see skill, not violence.

As for survival: Bobby Orr is frequently called the best defenseman of all time, and he did not survive for long. Which is a shame to me, but your good ol' Canadian approach probably says "too bad."

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12-29-2012, 05:25 PM
  #589
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How is playing within the rules dictating the rules? Unless you can show me where in the rulebook it states that body checking is illegal then what you are arguing is moot.
What is too hard a hit and what is not is up to interpretations though.

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As for the poster that stated that the rules should be based on the majority and that would mean IIHF rules, you would be wrong. 66% of all registered hockey players, globally, play in North America, so it would mean NA rules would rule the day.
The other way to look at it is that the majority of the countries is in Europe. So if (IF) Canada wants to play in international tournaments with European countries, it has to arrange itself with European refereeing.

Of course majority of players vs majority of countries lead us nowhere. Yes, a unified set of rules & interpretations is the only solution.

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12-29-2012, 05:25 PM
  #590
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As for Canada not adapting, let's have another best on best and see who needs to adapt. Can't wait for the next Olympics.
We might not wait that long. If NHL cancels its season, this year's worlds will be a perfect "best on best", just like WHC in 2005 was.

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12-29-2012, 05:29 PM
  #591
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We might not wait that long. If NHL cancels its season, this year's worlds will be a perfect "best on best", just like WHC in 2005 was.
That would be outstanding. I wonder if we would get full participation from NHL players, since most of them view the World's as an inconvenience in normal years. I would hope they all go.

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12-29-2012, 05:45 PM
  #592
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First of all, soccer that is so maligned around these parts is much more popular and much more lucrative, with all its diving and acting. NHL would kill to have a fraction of UEFA's revenues.
Nice strawman, lol. Why compare to a different sport all together, when the comparison is actually concerned with the relative style/appeal of the various stages of a specific sport's growth/history?

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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Second, some of the best hockey ever played was the 87 Canada Cup, all three games being 6-5. Guess what, even a typical All Star Game is more exciting than a Minnesota-Columbus regular season game, with all its "passion," "heart" and "survival." I want to see skill, not violence.
Pffft. I'm just gonna drop this here as one example among, well, a LOT more, showing how much physicality and "chippiness" was involved along the journey to that Canada Cup gold:



But for what it's worth, I agree with you. That kind of hockey was my favourite.

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As for survival: Bobby Orr is frequently called the best defenseman of all time, and he did not survive for long. Which is a shame to me, but your good ol' Canadian approach probably says "too bad."
Wait a second, where are the "what ifs" with Bobby Orr? How much higher he could have gotten? Eight straight Norris trophies... two Cups... Not exactly as relevant a comparison as you thought, but it certainly does suggest that players like himself and Forsberg, maybe even Bure also had to pay the price for their style of play - eventually.

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12-29-2012, 05:56 PM
  #593
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That would be outstanding. I wonder if we would get full participation from NHL players, since most of them view the World's as an inconvenience in normal years. I would hope they all go.
Sure. But if they don't, that won't be the tournament's fault, right? Canadians love to refer to Canada Cups as "best-on-best," but believe me when I say it carries no greater weight for any European players and fans than the World Champions. 2005 was a legitimate "best-on-best," which Czech Republic won.

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12-29-2012, 06:03 PM
  #594
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I still honestly dont know what else Camara should do in that situation?
slow down to lessen impact?
stop and wait for him?
poke check?
skate around back of him and steal the puck?
yell "heads up!"?
just skate away?

Enlighten me, all those opposed to how he handled the play....

In my opinion it was a textbook/perfect hit on the forecheck........an absolutely perfect hockey hit in every sense.

He destroyed the guy but lets face it, if he wanted to be dirty it would have been easy, just put up your elbow and that guy would of been out cold into next week, seizuring all the way.

Even if the slovak player gets hit to a lesser extent in that position/situation he still gets smoked and mosy likely is bleeding, concussed and wondering what hit him.

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12-29-2012, 06:10 PM
  #595
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I still honestly dont know what else Camara should do in that situation?
slow down to lessen impact?
stop and wait for him?
poke check?
skate around back of him and steal the puck?
yell "heads up!"?
just skate away?

Enlighten me, all those opposed to how he handled the play....

In my opinion it was a textbook/perfect hit on the forecheck........an absolutely perfect hockey hit in every sense.

He destroyed the guy but lets face it, if he wanted to be dirty it would have been easy, just put up your elbow and that guy would of been out cold into next week, seizuring all the way.

Even if the slovak player gets hit to a lesser extent in that position/situation he still gets smoked and mosy likely is bleeding, concussed and wondering what hit him.
You pretty much summed it up.. either he purposefully avoids him and tries to make a play without contact while also possibly letting him skate right by and on an odd man rush (which is why you're taught as a little kid to take the body), or he hits him cleanly which he did and therefore stopped the other team from breaking out.

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12-29-2012, 06:12 PM
  #596
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
One of the best parts of Gretzky's game was understanding the physicality, and developing the elusiveness and awareness required to be that productive despite being the target, physically, of every opposing player. That involves knowing who is on the ice, where you are on the ice, and how little time you have to move the puck against top players.

Evolution and adaptation has always worked through culling of the "unfit" in the herd. In hockey, those who can't keep their heads up or handle the physicality inevitably get eliminated from the gene pool. This isn't recreational hockey, it's a development step for the best juniors in the world on their way to professional hockey (which, for the best among them looking to play on the biggest and most lucrative world stage, means the NHL). Asking them to give less than 100% on every play is asking them to commit career suicide, and those who can't handle facing teams of players giving 100% should be exposed by the time they hit this level.

Hockey isn't as legendary as it is because of the kind of fire wagon 9-7 hockey that we see at all-star games. It's because of the respect earned by the greats who survive the physicality long enough to establish highly productive and successful careers. The Sakics/Yzermans/Messiers get more respect (and have more "appeal") as a result than, say, "higher" talents who didn't survive, such as Kariya and Lindros. Without the element of "survival", hockey is just a less-understood sport that might be lucky to rival field hockey in terms of global interest and fan base "passion".
Really solid post, kudos.

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12-29-2012, 06:12 PM
  #597
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post

Pffft. I'm just gonna drop this here as one example among, well, a LOT more, showing how much physicality and "chippiness" was involved along the journey to that Canada Cup gold:



Yeah, that is team canada. Just like I remember them.

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12-29-2012, 06:14 PM
  #598
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Originally Posted by take a peak View Post
I still honestly dont know what else Camara should do in that situation?
poke check?
skate around back of him and steal the puck?
Either one works for me.

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12-29-2012, 06:15 PM
  #599
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He's benched if he doesn't hit him.

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12-29-2012, 06:47 PM
  #600
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Either one works for me.
He should hit him because he has the puck and it's a body contact sport. Throwing more checks helps you win in the long run that's why your coach tells you to go out and finish your checks.

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