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Canadians insist they won't dive to get calls

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Old
12-29-2012, 06:47 PM
  #76
Theokritos
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
So diving is OK because it's a victimless crime?
It's not victimless, the victim is the opponent who get unfairly punished. Not to mention the more abstract victims: fairness & sportsmanship.

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12-29-2012, 06:48 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
If I recall correctly, there's an old thread on the history board discussing Shore's theatrics.



This is from Eddie Shore and That old time Hockey. By C. Michael Haim:

Also, by every account, Shore was not above a little theatrics.
Smeaton knew Shore and his little 'acts', and they afforded the big Bruin zero leway. Press reports from the era seem to have Shore forever "writhing" in pain on the ice, only to recover miraculously moments later to regain his "zip". While fortitude and smelling salts accounted for many of Shore's speedy recuperations, this was not always the case. "Shore was a very colorful hockey player", Fredrickson explained, "who put everything he had into the game but also used every subterfuge he could to win the sympathy of the crowd. He'd fake getting hurt and would lay down and roll around in agony. then he'd get up and be twice as good as ever.


Eddie Shore and That old time Hockey. By C. Michael Haim
http://books.google.com/books?id=ISD...ed=0CDEQ6AEwAA


Perhaps you'd like me to online research some old articles that verify the above?
I rarely need to use online sources to get my proof when it comes to hockey, so no thanks. I prefer what I know first hand or from my 40+ years of experience in the game as a player, ref, and coach.

I appreciate your efforts, though. I can also find an online source that says Barrack Obama is from outer space, btw.

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12-29-2012, 06:50 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post


So you have personally met Eddie Shore and he came across as a straight guy - and that's your argument/proof/whatever that he didn't dive? Seriously?
I never met him. I just know what I have heard from many people that did. I trust that more than what I hear from "random internet guy".

Did he dive? Probably. Did he invent it or perfect it? No.

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12-29-2012, 06:52 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
So diving is OK because it's a victimless crime?
It's not OK, but it's not the worse thing in the world.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
It's not victimless, the victim is the opponent who get unfairly punished. Not to mention the more abstract victims: fairness & sportsmanship.
Diving is disgraceful, but it's still not as worse than injuring a player on purpose. THAT to me is unacceptable. I'm sure anyone would rather be penalized, even wrongly penalized, than having a concussion that may cost your career.

I always root for Canada, but I'm with the Europeans on this. Us Canadians are being super biased and unreasonable.

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12-29-2012, 06:58 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Canuck21t View Post
Diving is disgraceful, but it's still not as worse than injuring a player on purpose. THAT to me is unacceptable. I'm sure anyone would rather be penalized, even wrongly penalized, than having a concussion that may cost your career.
Nowhere did I say it is worse.

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12-29-2012, 06:59 PM
  #81
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This is one thing i am proud of finnish players. They don't dive so much or do other fake things (yes, there is Jarkko Ruutu and couple of others, but generally).

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12-29-2012, 06:59 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fly4apuckguy View Post
I rarely need to use online sources to get my proof when it comes to hockey, so no thanks. I prefer what I know first hand or from my 40+ years of experience in the game as a player, ref, and coach.

I appreciate your efforts, though. I can also find an online source that says Barrack Obama is from outer space, btw.

So your opinion is essentially, "I don't need proof, I have 40 years experience in the game!"?????
Well ok then.




Here, have some more of Shore's theatrics:

Globe and Mail, Nov 13, 1929
There is much joy around Madison Square Garden today. Ching Johnson, the great Ranger defenseman, has signed a contract and will chase the puck again while his supporters cheer and his enemies jeer... There is not a better natured hockeyist in existence than the amaible Ching but he has an unusual way of checking which confounds his critics and upsets his opponents. "Elbows" Harry Broadbent never had anything on Johnson the latter being most playful in the art of using his arms to ward off attackers. But "it's all fun" as far as Johnson is concerned and even opposing players are among his most loyal admirers. [Johnson can take the bumps as well as deliver them, and he stepped into many terrific jolts, most of them engineered by the Bruins at Boston, where they would willingly play $10,000 to keep Johnson out of hockey. The latter invariably has selected Eddie Shore as his body-checking victim, and the moans and groans of disapproval in the Hub have been something out of the ordinary. Shore is a great player. He is colorful. In Boston he is an idol and he knows how to play to the gallery. His specialty is falling to the ice, as if in tremendous pain. So Johnson, an obliging sort of player, has helped along the hero act by upsetting Shore at every opportunity. May the good work continue.


Ottawa Citizen: Feb. 17, 1931
Boston was bad a few seasons back when Manager Art Ross had the habit of jumping out onto the ice to argue with the officials and Eddie Shore did his falling acts, feigning injury when checked by an opponent. Now Ross may do some talking, but it's all from the bench, and the customers have run out of sympathy for Shore when he flops, so the life of the referee is much easier than it was in Boston.

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Old
12-29-2012, 07:00 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canuck21t View Post
It's not OK, but it's not the worse thing in the world.



Diving is disgraceful, but it's still not as worse than injuring a player on purpose. THAT to me is unacceptable. I'm sure anyone would rather be penalized, even wrongly penalized, than having a concussion that may cost your career.

I always root for Canada, but I'm with the Europeans on this. Us Canadians are being super biased and unreasonable.
And how do you know Lipon and Camara meant to hurt them? In fact, Camara's hit was for one and only one purpose -- to separate the man from the puck.

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12-29-2012, 07:03 PM
  #84
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Even as a Canadian, I don't like it when the Canadians apply borderline hits but, to be honest, I would rather have that than the garbage you see from European teams - diving et all. It's not right and it is cheating.

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12-29-2012, 07:10 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by KulleKing View Post
What a joke. You just need to take a quick look at canadas favourite boy and you know the truth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGDLOYNsjuc

So funny.
Crosby has changed, and he's still the best player in the world. It seems like you really hate the Canadians considering your older comments.

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Old
12-29-2012, 07:12 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by agent082 View Post
This is one thing i am proud of finnish players. They don't dive so much or do other fake things (yes, there is Jarkko Ruutu and couple of others, but generally).
Canadians can say the same thing, in fact every nationality can say that. Just because Scheifele dove doesn't mean every canadian dives....

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12-29-2012, 07:13 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Serbian Power View Post
And how do you know Lipon and Camara meant to hurt them? In fact, Camara's hit was for one and only one purpose -- to separate the man from the puck.
I'm not saying their intend was to injure. Maybe yes, maybe not. Canadians often do stupid movies though, but to injure purposely that I'm not sure. My comment wasn't specifically about Lipon and Camara though. It was in regards to diving vs. dangerous hits, mostly to the head. I like a good clean hit, but Canadians often go close to the head and I'm against that even if the initial intent was to separate the man from the puck. Hockey players should be responsible for their actions and if they hit the head, they should be out. I shouldn't have used intent to injure. I think intent or not, if you touch the head, you're out.

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12-29-2012, 07:22 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Canuck21t View Post
I'm not saying their intend was to injure. Maybe yes, maybe not. Canadians often do stupid movies though, but to injure purposely that I'm not sure. My comment wasn't specifically about Lipon and Camara though. It was in regards to diving vs. dangerous hits, mostly to the head. I like a good clean hit, but Canadians often go close to the head and I'm against that even if the initial intent was to separate the man from the puck. Hockey players should be responsible for their actions and if they hit the head, they should be out. I shouldn't have used intent to injure. I think intent or not, if you touch the head, you're out.
So is Martin St. Louis untouchable considering his head is at almost every other players shoulder?

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12-29-2012, 07:24 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
So is Martin St. Louis untouchable considering his head is at almost every other players shoulder?
Tall players aren't allowed to throw a check either.

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12-29-2012, 08:26 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
So is Martin St. Louis untouchable considering his head is at almost every other players shoulder?
Of course not. Which leads to Prongerian physics. If everyone's head is at my elbow level, I can't possibly NOT elbow them in the head!

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12-29-2012, 08:34 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
Of course not. Which leads to Prongerian physics. If everyone's head is at my elbow level, I can't possibly NOT elbow them in the head!
Well no because an "elbow" in hockey terms is different from having your arms tucked in and leading with your shoulder yet the side of your elbow/arm happens to make contact rather than the shoulder.

If you throw a hit like the Camara hit yet you're 5 inches taller that shouldn't be a hitting to the head penalty simply because you're bigger. Hitting to the head penalties are meant for when the head is targeted.

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12-29-2012, 08:42 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Hanji View Post
So your opinion is essentially, "I don't need proof, I have 40 years experience in the game!"?????
Well ok then.




Here, have some more of Shore's theatrics:

Globe and Mail, Nov 13, 1929
There is much joy around Madison Square Garden today. Ching Johnson, the great Ranger defenseman, has signed a contract and will chase the puck again while his supporters cheer and his enemies jeer... There is not a better natured hockeyist in existence than the amaible Ching but he has an unusual way of checking which confounds his critics and upsets his opponents. "Elbows" Harry Broadbent never had anything on Johnson the latter being most playful in the art of using his arms to ward off attackers. But "it's all fun" as far as Johnson is concerned and even opposing players are among his most loyal admirers. [Johnson can take the bumps as well as deliver them, and he stepped into many terrific jolts, most of them engineered by the Bruins at Boston, where they would willingly play $10,000 to keep Johnson out of hockey. The latter invariably has selected Eddie Shore as his body-checking victim, and the moans and groans of disapproval in the Hub have been something out of the ordinary. Shore is a great player. He is colorful. In Boston he is an idol and he knows how to play to the gallery. His specialty is falling to the ice, as if in tremendous pain. So Johnson, an obliging sort of player, has helped along the hero act by upsetting Shore at every opportunity. May the good work continue.


Ottawa Citizen: Feb. 17, 1931
Boston was bad a few seasons back when Manager Art Ross had the habit of jumping out onto the ice to argue with the officials and Eddie Shore did his falling acts, feigning injury when checked by an opponent. Now Ross may do some talking, but it's all from the bench, and the customers have run out of sympathy for Shore when he flops, so the life of the referee is much easier than it was in Boston.
I think this pretty much wraps things up. Snap.

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Old
12-29-2012, 08:47 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by wreckless View Post
whenever diving comes up on these boards i always wonder how many of those giving opinions have ever played hockey.

i play div 1 mens hockey at burnaby 8 rinks and every single player on our team would rather die than dive. the same goes for each team we play.

throughout my time playing junior hockey every single player on my team would rather die than dive.

believe it or not, there are times when what apears top be a dive is really a caught edge, or a slight off balance resulting in the player falling.. which at the NHL level turns into thread after thread about that player diving.

there is no question in my mind that most (generally speaking) canadian players who have come up the ranks through triple a then junior a etc etc have the canadian hockey culture of being tough and not diving branded on their skull - for the most part they truly would rather die than dive.
That's a fantastic post - until you get to the point that not diving is something you learn as a part of a Canadian hockey culture. What you said before that was sincere and true, and it was so for the majority of hockey players in Canada, the same way it's true for Swedes, Russians and Germans. There's simply humans that don't respect rules, and don't have the moral standards to not seek any advantage available through cheating. All this other stuff ("Europeans defiling the pure Canadian game") that so many on here are actually willing to confirm, is ill-leading nationalism and downright bigotry.

You can find reasons for statistical differences in which nationalities appear to dive more than others in their upbringing, their social development, and the same things that make people not respect laws like not to steal. But whoever believes that diving isn't an element of the (or any) sport that has its own root in every single nation on the planet is delusional, and in a quite worrying way.

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Old
12-29-2012, 09:45 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by TieClark View Post
So is Martin St. Louis untouchable considering his head is at almost every other players shoulder?
I've seen Martin St-Louis being hit all the time without having his head touched. Most of the time, the problem are with the elbows and hands, not the shoulder.

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Old
12-29-2012, 09:55 PM
  #95
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I like when people sum up Europeans and North Americans, while they should be thinking every nation as individual. Finns, Swedes, Russians, Czechs, Slovaks, Swiss etc.

If you look at Finns who are playing or has played in the NHL there isn't many who would fall under the category of divers. Jarkko Ruutu in the later years is about the only one I can think of. Finns may be many things but I don't see my countrymen as divers.

Call me biased but thats my honest opinion.

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12-29-2012, 10:01 PM
  #96
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What a joke. These Canadian junior teams just get more obnoxious every year.

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12-29-2012, 10:05 PM
  #97
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Every country has divers. It's just how it is

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12-29-2012, 10:10 PM
  #98
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What a joke. These Canadian junior teams just get more obnoxious every year.
You should have seen the interviews after the Slovakia game. Very humble and respectful towards the opponent and officials.

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12-29-2012, 10:37 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by Eerie Hurdler View Post
Of course not. Which leads to Prongerian physics. If everyone's head is at my elbow level, I can't possibly NOT elbow them in the head!


Ah man..

I wish this place had a follow option like Twitter.

Your posts are gold.

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12-29-2012, 10:37 PM
  #100
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Some of you should have read the article. Sounds more like he's talking about his hit specifically - meaning Canadians won't stay down on the ice. Everyone embellishes, but not all teams role around on the ground.

However, there are still some Canadians who do that. But for the most part, Canadians will drag themselves back to their feet.

I remember getting yelled at in public school because I handed the ball over after going out of bounds. We we're up by 4-goals - no need to cheat to win.

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