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*OFFICIAL* Windsor Spitfires 2012-13 Season Thread (Part 6)

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12-29-2012, 08:29 PM
  #451
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
Correct but when you whiff on Webermin and Maletta, Bateman doesn't pan out. Those are 3 1st round picks between 2010-2011 and you can't recover from that. Throw in the whiff on Ionin and you get the point. Otto is probably right though next year it will be the Kerby show if the London game is any indication he will be wearing the C next year.
I can't really say this is much of a surprise. Anyone that has been around Warren outside of hockey knows just how big of an egotistical a-hole he is... the good news is that we should only have 1 more year of the nepotism. Then maybe Rychel can get back to making proper hockey decisions.

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12-29-2012, 08:35 PM
  #452
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I can't really say this is much of a surprise. Anyone that has been around Warren outside of hockey knows just how big of an egotistical a-hole he is... the good news is that we should only have 1 more year of the nepotism. Then maybe Rychel can get back to making proper hockey decisions.
I still think Rychel's arrogance is preventing himself from rebuilding right now. Currently it's a clown show and there's this hope and dream of Memorial Cup 2014? Take your medicine punt that plan and start rebuilding.

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12-29-2012, 08:46 PM
  #453
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Jordan Maletta for Stephen Harper straght up.

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12-29-2012, 08:49 PM
  #454
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I still think Rychel's arrogance is preventing himself from rebuilding right now. Currently it's a clown show and there's this hope and dream of Memorial Cup 2014? Take your medicine punt that plan and start rebuilding.
These sanctions are really going to put a dent into doing the rebuild properly.

And for those wanting a "fire sale"... how exactly is that going to happen? Are you expecting to trade our underachieving players for some young superstars? We suck now with these players... the players we would get in return will even frther reduce the talent level on this team.

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12-29-2012, 08:59 PM
  #455
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^Gotta trade Vail, Kerby, Koko (if he returns), Sieloff, Ebert, Marchese.

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12-29-2012, 09:05 PM
  #456
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These sanctions are really going to put a dent into doing the rebuild properly.

And for those wanting a "fire sale"... how exactly is that going to happen? Are you expecting to trade our underachieving players for some young superstars? We suck now with these players... the players we would get in return will even frther reduce the talent level on this team.
First point bang on.

As for a fire sale or clean house etc.. I think it would be a heck of a lot easier if Warren didn't have his son on the team. If his name was Kerby Jackson or Kerby Rose you could move him. Right now if they had a 2013 1st round pick I think they would rebuild. I know I am Mr. Negative but I wouldn't have an issue with any player being dealt.

Why not Vail to a team like Owen Sound? They have a decent core could do some damage.

Kitchener wants to make a run they seem to have top tier talent in place but want depth. Why not move Clarke and Johnson that would give them good support on the 3rd line?

Khokhlachev to Sarnia who has room for an import. Would look good with a guy like Galchenyuk and Goldobin.

There are a myriad of possibilities. I realize Maletta and Bateman have very little value because they have stunk you can put Marchese in that boat as well.

Heck Sieloff would have a lot of value to a contending team wanting to make a run this year and possibly next year.

I do like Vail and Sieloff but this is only under the idea that they aren't contending next year or in position to do it next year. Get prospects and picks for the 13 draft to go with the draft picks you get to keep in 2014 and 2015 and start rebuilding the right way.

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12-29-2012, 09:07 PM
  #457
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^Gotta trade Vail, Kerby, Koko (if he returns), Sieloff, Ebert, Marchese.
I think the big issue with this current group is the fact that Rychel put all his eggs in one age group (1994's) and din't insulate them with the proper older veterens. The 1993 draft class is missing entirely!

So we can't trade all of our 94's... they may get use better returns but something needs to be said for having them around to teach the younger crop. Someone like Seiloff or Vail are players you need to teach the younger players how to play.

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12-29-2012, 09:17 PM
  #458
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Priorities for trading right now would be:

-Clarke
-Marchese
-Posa
-Pavelka
-Maletta
-Bateman

Rychel also needs to go and get our own 2013 2nd round pick back as well as trying to obtain Peterborough, Ottawa or Erie's 2nd round picks in 2013. It's the only way to recoup losing that top 5 pick. Even if it's Maletta or Bateman for one of those 2nd round picks straight up I would be fine with that.

I believe next year is the year you part with Seiloff, Vail, Rychel and the same thing goes for getting back our own 2nd in 2014.

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12-29-2012, 09:31 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by Libbs View Post
I think the big issue with this current group is the fact that Rychel put all his eggs in one age group (1994's) and din't insulate them with the proper older veterens. The 1993 draft class is missing entirely!

So we can't trade all of our 94's... they may get use better returns but something needs to be said for having them around to teach the younger crop. Someone like Seiloff or Vail are players you need to teach the younger players how to play.
You hit the nail on the head! Only (2) 93's (Lorentz & Pavelka)and using only (2) 92's. No vets to steady things when it gets tough. With all the picks we lost some of the best 94's need to be traded now. Some need to be kept to bring next years group along,at least until the trade deadline in 2014 because we aren't getting out of this mess easily or quickly. So who do you trade...you trade the guys that will bring you the best return now..because you're dead last with the guys you are playing now.

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12-29-2012, 09:59 PM
  #460
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I may be completely off base here...so if something doesn't make sense, I apologize.

As stated above, this season I would like to see Clarke, Ebert, Johnson, Posa, Pavelka, Marchese, Maletta and Bateman. I'm not even going to speculate what kind of return you would get for these players because it's such a crap-shoot. This would leave us the following. I have inserted players where I feel they will project to in the line-up.

Rychel - Ho Sang - ???
??? - Vail - ???
??? - Verbeek - Studnika
Clark - ??? - Lorentz

Seiloff - Sanvido
Brown - Murphy
??? - ???
Bowen

As you can see...there are a lot of holes to fill here. We need warm bodies back in these trades as well has high 2013 2nd round picks.

We also need to pick up 2 more OA's. Unfortunately we payed WAY too much for Clark so dumping him isn;t much of an option. We need at least 1 OA to replace Posa on the blueline and an OA up front that can hopefully play on the 2nd line.

So the question now is... can we even afford to trade all those players?

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12-29-2012, 10:01 PM
  #461
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^How many cards do we have left? 4-5 tops would be my guess.

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12-29-2012, 10:01 PM
  #462
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So we can't trade all of our 94's... they may get use better returns but something needs to be said for having them around to teach the younger crop. Someone like Seiloff or Vail are players you need to teach the younger players how to play.
Bingo! Dealing guys like Sieloff, Vail, and even Posa might get you solid returns, but they'll hurt the room, and you don't need that.

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12-29-2012, 10:05 PM
  #463
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^How many cards do we have left? 4-5 tops would be my guess.
I'm not sure... you'd need to wait for Legend to answer that. Another reason why a complete firesale won't happen this year. Most of the big moves are going to be made in the trade period before the draft.

I'm drawing a blank... but is one of the Import picks we have our own? While losing out on a high OHL pick, we will have an opportunity to offset that loss a bit by choosing a higher Import. This 2013 Import draft is going to be huge in that aspect.

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12-29-2012, 10:12 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by Libbs View Post
Priorities for trading right now would be:

-Clarke
-Marchese
-Posa
-Pavelka
-Maletta
-Bateman

Rychel also needs to go and get our own 2013 2nd round pick back as well as trying to obtain Peterborough, Ottawa or Erie's 2nd round picks in 2013. It's the only way to recoup losing that top 5 pick. Even if it's Maletta or Bateman for one of those 2nd round picks straight up I would be fine with that.

I believe next year is the year you part with Seiloff, Vail, Rychel and the same thing goes for getting back our own 2nd in 2014.
I understand what you're saying and the above 6 need to be made a priority to ship out I would even consider Johnson but like you said you don't want to touch the 94s yet. Now hear me out in regards to dealing Sieloff, Rychel, Vail. I think the trade deadlines have changed recently. You may find a Spooner for Kujawinski deal out there but that seems to be the exception now. London got McKegg and Watson and the most valuable player they moved was Fox. Niagara dealt for Oleksiak and the Spirit didn't get a single top tier young guy in return. Sarnia moved Ritchie and only got picks. In the case of Sieloff, Rychel and Vail there's a better chance you can get good prospects because they will be back next year. If you hold on to them and end up moving them you may only end up getting picks back, which isn't all bad but we did this song and dance with Campbell and Kuhnhackl and it really hasn't helped the team this year and questionable going forward.

Correct me if I am wrong but they have full allotment of picks for 2014 possibly 3 2nd round picks at their disposal already.

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12-29-2012, 10:16 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by Libbs View Post
I'm not sure... you'd need to wait for Legend to answer that. Another reason why a complete firesale won't happen this year. Most of the big moves are going to be made in the trade period before the draft.

I'm drawing a blank... but is one of the Import picks we have our own? While losing out on a high OHL pick, we will have an opportunity to offset that loss a bit by choosing a higher Import. This 2013 Import draft is going to be huge in that aspect.
They need to hit a homerun in the import draft they have their own pick and Niagara's. This is the only thing saving Rychel from utter disaster at the current time. He has to hit a homerun he can't hit a single.

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12-29-2012, 10:21 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by RayzorIsDull View Post
I understand what you're saying and the above 6 need to be made a priority to ship out I would even consider Johnson but like you said you don't want to touch the 94s yet. Now hear me out in regards to dealing Sieloff, Rychel, Vail. I think the trade deadlines have changed recently. You may find a Spooner for Kujawinski deal out there but that seems to be the exception now. London got McKegg and Watson and the most valuable player they moved was Fox. Niagara dealt for Oleksiak and the Spirit didn't get a single top tier young guy in return. Sarnia moved Ritchie and only got picks. In the case of Sieloff, Rychel and Vail there's a better chance you can get good prospects because they will be back next year. If you hold on to them and end up moving them you may only end up getting picks back, which isn't all bad but we did this song and dance with Campbell and Kuhnhackl and it really hasn't helped the team this year and questionable going forward.

Correct me if I am wrong but they have full allotment of picks for 2014 possibly 3 2nd round picks at their disposal already.
I see what you're saying but you can't use the London deals last year as any kind of benchmark. Hunter managed to get those players at a severely discounted price.

I see the logic of trading our most valuable guys now... but not sure if it's the best move to make at this time. I would especially keep Seiloff since our defense core is very young and we need him to anchor the back end for this season and possibly part of next.

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12-29-2012, 10:25 PM
  #467
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Bingo! Dealing guys like Sieloff, Vail, and even Posa might get you solid returns, but they'll hurt the room, and you don't need that.
This meme about the room is really overplayed. If this group of current vets Sieloff, Vail and Posa can't get this group on track right now why will they buy in next year. It's a rudderless ship right now and the waters are poisoned it's not going to get better keeping this group together.

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12-29-2012, 10:25 PM
  #468
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They need to hit a homerun in the import draft they have their own pick and Niagara's. This is the only thing saving Rychel from utter disaster at the current time. He has to hit a homerun he can't hit a single.
Botching that Top 15 pick this past summer is really stinging right now. The only way that isn't a complete catastrophe is if Khokhlachev comes back after the WJC.

I do think that the 2013 Import draft we need to secure 2 picks in the top 15. Hopefully our pick is one of them and use the Niagara pick (and something else) to secure the other one.

Adding 2 Top 15 Import picks and 2 of the 21-25 overall picks in the 2013 OHL draft is top priority.

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12-29-2012, 10:53 PM
  #469
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Botching that Top 15 pick this past summer is really stinging right now. The only way that isn't a complete catastrophe is if Khokhlachev comes back after the WJC.

I do think that the 2013 Import draft we need to secure 2 picks in the top 15. Hopefully our pick is one of them and use the Niagara pick (and something else) to secure the other one.

Adding 2 Top 15 Import picks and 2 of the 21-25 overall picks in the 2013 OHL draft is top priority.
Libbs glad you're posting a bit more your insight is welcomed. My concern with keeping the 94 crop is let's say the team struggles next year. It isn't reasonable to deal all those guys you really can't be a one stop shop for every team come deadline time. So maybe it might be in their best interests to move one of them now. Would you do Vail and Ebert to Owen Sound for Nastasiuk and picks or those 2 for Middleton?

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12-29-2012, 11:43 PM
  #470
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http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2012/12...ss-in-saginaw/

Posa says team lacks heart, he then uses a qualifier to say the team has character. Boughner is calling it like it is right now. Boughner did call out guys like Maletta, Bateman without using names though, you can probably throw Johnson and Marchese into that group as well.

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12-30-2012, 12:08 AM
  #471
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I think it's cheap as hell to keep calling out Bateman and Maletta (unless they're blocking trades or something) while letting the Rychel's, Vail's, Marchese's, Ebert's - basically all the 94's get a pass. That's the core that should be setting the tempo and carrying the team.

WR was so focused on the 94's taking over the team that he didn't have any veteran leadership around them - our OA's and 19 y olds are depth guys, and were last year as well.

And claiming a "lack of heart" is a cop out as well - it's letting Warren and Boughner off the hook completely. The team lacks talent - and that is on Warren for his drafting and on Boughner for complete lack of development. You can have all the heart in the world, but if your constantly outclassed there is little you can do.

Also good luck trading players who you smear as lacking heart and how they've not developed. Why not just say something like "What we have here is obviously not working, not the right mix or whatever and some players might be better off with a fresh start elsewhere".

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12-30-2012, 01:17 AM
  #472
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I think it's cheap as hell to keep calling out Bateman and Maletta (unless they're blocking trades or something) while letting the Rychel's, Vail's, Marchese's, Ebert's - basically all the 94's get a pass. That's the core that should be setting the tempo and carrying the team.

WR was so focused on the 94's taking over the team that he didn't have any veteran leadership around them - our OA's and 19 y olds are depth guys, and were last year as well.

And claiming a "lack of heart" is a cop out as well - it's letting Warren and Boughner off the hook completely. The team lacks talent - and that is on Warren for his drafting and on Boughner for complete lack of development. You can have all the heart in the world, but if your constantly outclassed there is little you can do.

Also good luck trading players who you smear as lacking heart and how they've not developed. Why not just say something like "What we have here is obviously not working, not the right mix or whatever and some players might be better off with a fresh start elsewhere".
There are so many questions and very few answers right now. Has Boughner and coaches done a poor job of developing some players? I believe so. Do I think players like Maletta, Bateman and Marchese would be better under different coaches and that coach would turn them into very good players? No I don't. Marchese openly admitted he checked out in Erie, that's a red flag right there. Spits took a gamble on Marchese and it hasn't panned out.

I agree that it doesn't help their value but opposing coaches and scouts don't need words from Boughner they can just watch a game and see their play.

You're right they don't have any 19 year olds that are helping the cause and their OA's have done very little. Coaches haven't done a very good job but Rychel hasn't given the coaches much to work with.

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12-30-2012, 02:06 AM
  #473
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This meme about the room is really overplayed. If this group of current vets Sieloff, Vail and Posa can't get this group on track right now why will they buy in next year. It's a rudderless ship right now and the waters are poisoned it's not going to get better keeping this group together.
If the secondary personnel aren't getting it done, you don't deal off the leaders. If I'm not doing my job at work, you fire me, not my boss cause he's not motivating me properly. Guys like Sieloff, Vail, and Posa are key components in both off-ice teaching and on-ice performance. You're going to need them.

Quote:
The team lacks talent - and that is on Warren for his drafting and on Boughner for complete lack of development. You can have all the heart in the world, but if your constantly outclassed there is little you can do.
I think the team has enough talent, and they've proved a few times this year that, with the right hard work and heart, they can dominate. They just don't show it enough, for whatever reason.

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12-30-2012, 06:02 AM
  #474
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^How many cards do we have left? 4-5 tops would be my guess.
by my count we have 6 cards left to work with if the rumours are true u will use 1 on koko so make it 5 then

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12-30-2012, 07:42 AM
  #475
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It makes you wonder what is really happening with Boogs & Warren. Are they both on the same page and working as a unit. I know when the kids get dropped into these situations ( Kerbys draft ) it often brings up hard questions on team development. Now that Boog has again laid waste to his kids it makes you wonder where they head now. When that kid came from Erie I rolled my eyes after watching him perfect his skating skills in Erie while not doing much else. IT sounds like there is some division in the ranks down there and maybe it's time Warren finds out who needs to go. Development of these kids doesn't really begin to show until next year...patience is needed by all the staff. They drafted some good kids in the past who kind of turned into low maintenance players with skills to die for....now they have a crop that is far different. So which way are the big guys focused right ? On Kerbys draft, Mem Cup hosting, trades, getting Koko back..........wow that's a busy itinerary for Management.
All the bells and whistles are nice but the big one is development of your present crop of kids. Trying to hit a home run swing in the trade market might help but when these guys are struggling no other teams are spending big to knock your door down.
If the elephant in the room is hosting next year I don't see this crazy stuff ending anytime soon.

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