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Paul Martin Trade or Buyout? (if there's a season)

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Old
12-29-2012, 03:20 PM
  #51
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
The fact that Philly will be able to get out of that Pronger deal is sickening to me.
Not sure you can. I mean, they can get out of paying him but I think that cap hit remains locked in no matter what. Maybe that's a negotiating point in the next CBA, but it seems to me the 35+ rule is pretty concrete.

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12-29-2012, 04:17 PM
  #52
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Weird case with Martin.

He was probably our best player in the Tampa series in the playoffs.
the next year he was dreadful.

with the way variance in some players performance works i could see him being a dominant player again. no interest in buying him out until he proves he actually did fall off completely.

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12-29-2012, 04:26 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Karnage420 View Post
Weird case with Martin.

He was probably our best player in the Tampa series in the playoffs.
the next year he was dreadful.

with the way variance in some players performance works i could see him being a dominant player again. no interest in buying him out until he proves he actually did fall off completely.
He certainly is an interesting case-study, that's for sure. He was very good against Tampa. But we need him to be great when superstar talent surrounds him. It's weird. You'd think he'd be much better when he's surrounded by great talent. In fact, I think we all expected his numbers to get significantly better after signing with us, and we figured he'd have a lot less pressure to do it all for this team, as opposed to his role on the Devils. But it seems less is, well, less in his case. He's kinda like the Curtis Joseph of defensemen. CuJo was always better with more work, less defense in front of him and just generally facing a lot of rubber. Martin seems to be better when he's asked to do everything, as opposed to being more of a role player.

The problem is, he just doesn't scream No. 1 defenseman because of his complete omission of any physicality in his game. And I think the Pens have become WAY too soft since winning the Cup. Ultimately, he's a bad fit.

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12-29-2012, 04:33 PM
  #54
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I'd much rather have Ryan Whitney than Paul Martin and I hated Whitney.

The biggest issue I have with Martin's play is he forces passes up ice that have been picked off by the other teams that lead to game winning goals (and this happened multiple times in the playoffs, especially against the Lightning) and his boneheaded gaffes against the Flyers.

Whoever we replace Martin with, can he be that much less of an effective player for the next 1-2 seasons? His best attribute of being a surgeon with the stick doing poke checks seems to have left him.

As others have said, Tanger and Malkin are going to need new contracts. Martin will be showcased for a trade or bought out if there are no suiters.

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12-29-2012, 04:37 PM
  #55
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I guess at least Whitney could be used (extremely effectively) on the powerplay. And would even throw a hit or three a game, when he got bored enough to try something new and exciting.

To be fair I think the asinine insistence on the "long bomb" passes were more of a coaching thing than a "hey I'm Paul Martin and I'm awful" thing. I noticed just about every defenseman trying those a billion times a game. It's just that Martin's attempts were usually particularly futile.

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12-29-2012, 04:48 PM
  #56
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Martin just cannot generate any kind of zip on the puck no matter what he's doing, shooting or going for the long pass. Perhaps the broken forearm did a lot more damage than initially thought.

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12-29-2012, 05:19 PM
  #57
Ogrezilla
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Paul Martin is currently one of our 4 best defensemen. As long as we don't sign anyone else he will be here for at least 1 more season.

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12-29-2012, 06:21 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Paul Martin is currently one of our 4 best defensemen.
Ouch.

You don't have to rub it in!

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Old
12-29-2012, 07:01 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by End of Line View Post
No not yet. Keep him for one more year.
There's only so long before we can't buy him out w/o taking a cap hit.

Keep him for the year and get rid of him in the summer. Why else has Shero been stockpiling Dmen?

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12-29-2012, 07:08 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Why else has Shero been stockpiling Dmen?
So we can trade them in for actual team needs, doncha know.

It worked twice. So now it's a full-on steadfast, to-be-relied upon drafting/development/team building strategy.

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12-29-2012, 07:53 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Paul Martin is currently one of our 4 best defensemen.
Not if we're basing it on last year, he's not.

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12-29-2012, 08:04 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragamuffin Gunner View Post
Why else has Shero been stockpiling Dmen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlindWillyMcHurt View Post
So we can trade them in for actual team needs, doncha know.

It worked twice. So now it's a full-on steadfast, to-be-relied upon drafting/development/team building strategy.
Well in a less sarcastic answer, I know you guys may disagree with it. But Ray Shero has said that he doesn't draft by need, he drafts to acquire assets, and puck moving defensemen are pretty valuable around the league. Now, like you said BlindWillyMcHurt, Shero has traded a puck moving defenseman twice, both times getting a return that have helped the Pens improve.

If you look at the kind of money these players are making and what teams are trading for them, it's a pretty smart move to stockpile on puck moving defensemen. I mean Colorado got a 1st for Quincey, Matt Carle got $5.5M a year long term with Tampa, we got Kunitz and Tangradi for Ryan Whitney, and we got Neal and Niskanen for Alex Goligoski.

It's not ridiculous to think some of these guys can be traded to improve the Penguins in the future while the others improve our blue line.

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12-29-2012, 08:24 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Not if we're basing it on last year, he's not.
in a top 4 role, he absolutely is. As of now, Martin is one of 4 players on our roster who has played that role with any regularity. We have a lot of young guys who need to prove otherwise before that changes.

that's not so much a compliment to Martin as much as it is a description of our defense in general. Lots of very inexperienced depth. Very little proven defense.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 12-29-2012 at 08:40 PM.
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Old
12-29-2012, 08:42 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Well in a less sarcastic answer, I know you guys may disagree with it. But Ray Shero has said that he doesn't draft by need, he drafts to acquire assets, and puck moving defensemen are pretty valuable around the league. Now, like you said BlindWillyMcHurt, Shero has traded a puck moving defenseman twice, both times getting a return that have helped the Pens improve.

If you look at the kind of money these players are making and what teams are trading for them, it's a pretty smart move to stockpile on puck moving defensemen. I mean Colorado got a 1st for Quincey, Matt Carle got $5.5M a year long term with Tampa, we got Kunitz and Tangradi for Ryan Whitney, and we got Neal and Niskanen for Alex Goligoski.

It's not ridiculous to think some of these guys can be traded to improve the Penguins in the future while the others improve our blue line.
its also not crazy to believe that some redundancy makes sense considering not every prospect works out and reaches his potential.

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12-29-2012, 08:52 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
in a top 4 role, he absolutely is. As of now, Martin is one of 4 players on our roster who has played that role with any regularity. We have a lot of young guys who need to prove otherwise before that changes.

that's not so much a compliment to Martin as much as it is a description of our defense in general. Lots of very inexperienced depth. Very little proven defense.
That's some circular logic though...he was one of our top 4 defensemen in the top 4? Well yeah, it'd be impossible not to, wouldn't it?

I'll put it this way: I have no doubt that any of Engelland, Niskanen, or Despres could step in and play at least as well as Martin did in a top 4 role last year. But he makes millions and millions of dollars more, and we may have to expose Strait or Bortuzzo to waivers just to retain his questionable services.

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12-29-2012, 09:03 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
its also not crazy to believe that some redundancy makes sense considering not every prospect works out and reaches his potential.
If you believe you are better at developing the high quality product than you are at developing the needed, but less sought, product and there is already a proven market for selling the high quality for the sought after, does it not make more sense to play to your strengths?

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12-29-2012, 09:03 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
its also not crazy to believe that some redundancy makes sense considering not every prospect works out and reaches his potential.
Oh I completely agree, but that's with any prospect though. People say Shero's wrong for drafting these defensemen. Obviously there is no guarantee these D prospects reach their potential and become solid NHL players, but the same goes for a winger prospect if we drafted one instead.

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12-29-2012, 09:39 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Well in a less sarcastic answer,
Guilty.

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I know you guys may disagree with it. But Ray Shero has said that he doesn't draft by need, he drafts to acquire assets, and puck moving defensemen are pretty valuable around the league.
I hear this a lot. Mostly because it's true. For now. It wasn't that way pre-lockout (05) and it probably won't stay that way down the road. Maybe not far down the road. Just like most other professional sports... the NHL tends to be a copycat league. Maybe next year a bunch of teams find success with gigantic, mostly defensive defensemen who can't necessarily skate like the wind and don't have much in the way of offensive acumen but can clear the net and block a ton of shots. Then that's the league's "hot commodity."

Most of all, though... I just feel like it's a rationalization. If Shero had drafted a whole crapload of potential impact centers... people would be pointing to all of the big trades involving those types of players and their monster contracts to assess value. If Shero had drafted a whole slew of goaltenders, fans would start calling us "Goaltender U" or something equally corny and, again... people would espouse the virtues of potential starting goaltenders and their worth. I mostly just think the league values... good players.

I'm not at all saying that Shero's drafts "suck" or that any of these guys are necessarily the wrong pick. Only time will bear that out (though the team's draft record has been spotty at best under Shero). I just get the feeling that the team is getting a little too cute with it's drafts. And maybe a bit lazy. Stockpiling all of your impact picks into one position just doesn't make good sense, to me. Even if...

Quote:
Now, like you said BlindWillyMcHurt, Shero has traded a puck moving defenseman twice, both times getting a return that have helped the Pens improve.
While true, I never, ever like to simply assume that because it's been done a couple of times... it's a shoo-in for the future. Trading, in particular, is never a sure thing. Some years... there simply won't be a deal to be had even if the team desperately, desperately needs it. While Shero has proven himself to be very adept in this department... I'm not as comfortable as most seem to be simply shrugging my shoulders and saying "Meh... if we need a forward, we'll just pull another Neal/Gogo. Done and done."

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12-29-2012, 10:40 PM
  #69
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According to Pierre LeBrun, the window would last until the start of the 2013-14 season. So there would be a good deal of flexibility with any decision.

Obviously, if this is true, that changes everything. If the window was only right now, I would do it without thinking twice. If the window extends into next summer, then I don't see a rush, and it would be clearly dependent on what type of return we could get for him for us to decide if it's worth moving him now.


I can say one thing clearly, however: if Martin (or Orpik) were moved immediately, then I would absolutely want to keep Brian Strait for this season. If Martin, Orpik and everyone else from last year are here (plus Bortuzzo being ready and Despres being close), then Strait is as good as gone.


Also, I don't remember exactly where I hear this, but I heard something to the effect that Shero (and I'm sure other GMs) may even already have a trade offer or two in place, but are just waiting on the CBA details to be finalized before pulling the trigger. So whoever gets traded out (Martin, Strait, Lovejoy) or in (i.e. Gonchar), something could happen very quickly if a deal gets done, such as before training camp.


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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
He will be gone before the start of next year, when the cap would --under this plan-- drop from (prorated) $70M to $60M, and by which time, Malkin must be extended and Letang too. He's history. The only question is trade now for inexpensive assets (not a pricey winger), or buyout this summer. I'm not even sure he'll get games or not. For a full season he would because of how young the D is, but in this situation... I can see Shero saying "**** it, let's let the kids play this year and see how they hold up."
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Let's not forget that teams that WERE interested in Paul Martin before the lockout may no longer be interested in him...after losing a lot of money this season.

There's no question that we can "dump" him next summer, but if would probably be in the form of a buyout or zero return; because if the cap truly descends by $10 million (or even anything substantial) then A) we don't have a lot of trade leverage because teams now that we would HAVE TO move him; and B) a lot of those prospective teams may not be as easily able to fit him under the cap, and/or may spend that money sooner, such as on signing a UFA this summer or trading for someone else, to hit this season's floor.


Personally, my vote, if there were ZERO good offers on the table, would be to keep Martin so we don't have to rush a youngster into a top-4, if the Pens management & coaches really believe he can perform in a top-4 role. But if we can get a good trade asset in return for him by moving him now, I would consider doing it because I don't think we'll get anything more than a buyout or 7th rounder type of deal for him in the summer.

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12-30-2012, 01:11 AM
  #70
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That's some circular logic though...he was one of our top 4 defensemen in the top 4? Well yeah, it'd be impossible not to, wouldn't it?

I'll put it this way: I have no doubt that any of Engelland, Niskanen, or Despres could step in and play at least as well as Martin did in a top 4 role last year. But he makes millions and millions of dollars more, and we may have to expose Strait or Bortuzzo to waivers just to retain his questionable services.
I'm really not sure what to say other than I disagree. Engelland would look awful with 2nd pairing minutes and harder competition. Despres would have last year. By the end of this year, I hope he's there. Niskanen is one of the guys I'm counting as a top 4 d-man.

I'm not saying Martin is an ideal top 4 d-man. But when the only guys we have who have shown they can play in the top 4 are Letang, Orpik, Niskanen (sort of) and Martin, it really doesn't make sense to get rid of one of those 4 guys. I think you are downplaying the difference in difficulty between the role Martin was playing and the sheltered role the 3rd pairing d-men play. Switch Martin and Despres' (or Engelland) roles last year and I believe a lot of people would be down on Despres and Martin would look like a very solid but overpaid shutdown defenseman. He's just a better player than they are right now. Just maybe not compared to the level of competition they regularly face in their role on the team. There is no forward in the league that would rather go up against Paul Martin than Simon Despres right now.

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Originally Posted by Stecz View Post
If you believe you are better at developing the high quality product than you are at developing the needed, but less sought, product and there is already a proven market for selling the high quality for the sought after, does it not make more sense to play to your strengths?
I have absolutely no problem with our drafting. The forum needs an "I agree, but want to add on" button to go along with the quote because sometimes quoting people doesn't mean I disagree with the quote
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
Oh I completely agree, but that's with any prospect though. People say Shero's wrong for drafting these defensemen. Obviously there is no guarantee these D prospects reach their potential and become solid NHL players, but the same goes for a winger prospect if we drafted one instead.
I was piggybacking off of what you said and not disagreeing with you at all. My bad. I definitely agree with you and was just adding my little bit that sort of follows it up.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 12-30-2012 at 01:20 AM.
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12-30-2012, 02:06 AM
  #71
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Simple point. After the 2013-14 season, Martin is the only NHL defenseman under contract. For those who are so sold on buying Martin out, look at the following (source: capgeek):

Martin (1 year remaining at 5,000,000)
Orpik (UFA)
Letang (UFA)
Niskanen (UFA)
Engelland (UFA)

After the balance of this present season, that leaves the Penguins with one season of a defense composed of somewhat-experienced defensemen under contract. For those considering buying Martin out, the Wilkes-Barre blueline is your future.

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12-30-2012, 02:25 AM
  #72
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I'm not saying Martin is an ideal top 4 d-man. But when the only guys we have who have shown they can play in the top 4 are Letang, Orpik, Niskanen (sort of) and Martin, it really doesn't make sense to get rid of one of those 4 guys. I think you are downplaying the difference in difficulty between the role Martin was playing and the sheltered role the 3rd pairing d-men play. Switch Martin and Despres' (or Engelland) roles last year and I believe a lot of people would be down on Despres and Martin would look like a very solid but overpaid shutdown defenseman. He's just a better player than they are right now. Just maybe not compared to the level of competition they regularly face in their role on the team. There is no forward in the league that would rather go up against Paul Martin than Simon Despres right now.
Well, we have a significant difference of opinion. I thought Martin played about as poorly as a top 4 defenseman could last year, and Niskanen and Engelland not only played well in their 3rd pairing roles, but acclimated themselves very well filling in for injuries in the top 4.

I don't see any evidence at all suggesting he's a better player at the moment. As I said earlier, we became a better team when Martin got hurt in the playoffs and got replaced by rookies. Nobody on the team is as contact-averse as Martin.

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12-30-2012, 08:06 AM
  #73
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Well, we have a significant difference of opinion. I thought Martin played about as poorly as a top 4 defenseman could last year, and Niskanen and Engelland not only played well in their 3rd pairing roles, but acclimated themselves very well filling in for injuries in the top 4.

I don't see any evidence at all suggesting he's a better player at the moment. As I said earlier, we became a better team when Martin got hurt in the playoffs and got replaced by rookies. Nobody on the team is as contact-averse as Martin.
I won't disagree when just talking about the playoff series. He was atrocious. Though his role wasn't really replaced by rookies. That top 4 spot was taken by Niskanen. Niskanen's 3rd pairing spot was then replaced by rookies. And now we don't have Michalek taking one of the other top 4 spots. If we get rid of Martin, someone better be ready to be thrown into the deep end ready to swim.

I would love to find an upgrade over Martin. Especially with both him and Niskanen in the top 4. I would just like a bit more size and physicality there. But until someone shows that they are ready to take the spot, I don't think it makes much sense to get rid of him. Let the young kids battle for the 3rd pairing opening. If a couple of them really impress, well we can cross that bridge when we get there.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 12-30-2012 at 08:19 AM.
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12-30-2012, 10:07 AM
  #74
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
Paul Martin is currently one of our 4 best defensemen. As long as we don't sign anyone else he will be here for at least 1 more season.
Well, CURRENTLY Paul Martin isn't playing hockey. Several others are. And the last time we saw Paul Martin, several younger players were outperforming Martin (and other veterans, too).


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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
That's some circular logic though...he was one of our top 4 defensemen in the top 4? Well yeah, it'd be impossible not to, wouldn't it?

I'll put it this way: I have no doubt that any of Engelland, Niskanen, or Despres could step in and play at least as well as Martin did in a top 4 role last year. But he makes millions and millions of dollars more, and we may have to expose Strait or Bortuzzo to waivers just to retain his questionable services.
Agreed. And IF we lose guys like Strait and Bortuzzo to waivers, then this draft strategy of taking the best player available simply isn't being maximized to the fullest. Terrible asset management, in fact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Slabber Chops View Post
Simple point. After the 2013-14 season, Martin is the only NHL defenseman under contract. For those who are so sold on buying Martin out, look at the following (source: capgeek):

Martin (1 year remaining at 5,000,000)
Orpik (UFA)
Letang (UFA)
Niskanen (UFA)
Engelland (UFA)

After the balance of this present season, that leaves the Penguins with one season of a defense composed of somewhat-experienced defensemen under contract. For those considering buying Martin out, the Wilkes-Barre blueline is your future.
So? Do you keep a player around simply because of his birth certificate? Do you stay with a girl you hate simply because nobody else is paying you any attention?

Do we honestly think we will go without signing any of our UFAs AND not be able to sign/trade for any other veteran D-men in the next two years? Hell, the way our defense played in the playoffs last spring, we should be thanking our lucky stars that we don't have more than one guy under contract for the long haul.


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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
I won't disagree when just talking about the playoff series. He was atrocious. Though his role wasn't really replaced by rookies. That top 4 spot was taken by Niskanen. Niskanen's 3rd pairing spot was then replaced by rookies. And now we don't have Michalek taking one of the other top 4 spots. If we get rid of Martin, someone better be ready to be thrown into the deep end ready to swim.

I would love to find an upgrade over Martin. Especially with both him and Niskanen in the top 4. I would just like a bit more size and physicality there. But until someone shows that they are ready to take the spot, I don't think it makes much sense to get rid of him. Let the young kids battle for the 3rd pairing opening. If a couple of them really impress, well we can cross that bridge when we get there.
I don't necessarily disagree with this sentiment, but I don't like the notion that the kids need to prove themselves (but Martin does not). What have you done for me lately needs to be implemented here, imo. Everybody on defense needs to prove themselves, as soon as we start up again. None of them were good enough against Philly, and nobody really knows what a half-season away from the NHL has done for those that HAVE played, as well as those that HAVE NOT.

Personally, I'd like to see one of the kids step up A S A P and be paired with Letang. This will probably be Despres, but it may also be Dumoulin, Strait, Harrington or maybe even Bortuzzo. Then, Orpik and Niskanen can be paired together. Martin could be paired with Engelland, so that maybe some of the latter's toughness could rub off on the former's ********* ways. Then, keep another kid as the No. 7 (probably Strait or Bortuzzo). Get rid of Lovejoy.

Then, when Morrow is ready we can move on from Martin, and go with...

Despres/Dumoulin/Strait/Harrington-Letang
Orpik-Niskanen
Morrow-Engelland

Then, we re-evaluate once Maatta and Pouliot are ready. That's how I see things. Not ideal, but honestly the only real concern re: the defense is the present situation, because the future looks awfully bright. And I hope the team stops thinking about the 'window closing' and all of that nonsense. The sooner we rebuild the blueline, the more quickly we'll get back to hoisting the Cup. Because as we very well know by now, the group of blueliners we had were simply not good enough to win. While we added more talented guys (Martin, Michalek, Niskanen), we simply lost the ability to do the simple play, the little things, the gritty things that winning teams do. In many ways, I feel we had it backwards: we kept all the grit up front, but got rid of most of it from the back. I'd rather have more talent up front and more stability and grit at the back, but maybe that's just me.

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12-30-2012, 10:36 AM
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Ogrezilla
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I think we largely agree on this Jags. Martin has a lot to prove this year. And he has enough history of being a quality player that its worth giving him the chance to do it. I know we all love prospects here. I know we all have high hopes for the guys we have. But Paul Martin is not far removed from being a very good hockey player. These kids would all be thrilled to reach the same level that Paul Martin has been for most of his career. I would be thrilled if even half of them do it. If these kids deserve a chance to prove they can handle a role they have never had then Martin deserves a chance to prove that he can bounce back and reclaim the role he has handled very well in the past.

And yes, I agree we got rid of too much grit in the back end. Sadly, I do not agree that any of the young guys will be ready to play with Letang this season. Hopefully I'm wrong.


Last edited by Ogrezilla: 12-30-2012 at 10:46 AM.
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