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12-29-2012, 05:26 PM
  #776
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Originally Posted by IkeaMonkey View Post
He also threw Hamr and Bjork under the bus.
how is that relevant to what he does on the ice?

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12-29-2012, 05:31 PM
  #777
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how is that relevant to what he does on the ice?
To be fair, Brouwer himself is the one who suggested it would...

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12-29-2012, 05:34 PM
  #778
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To be fair, Brouwer himself is the one who suggested it would...
Yep.

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12-29-2012, 07:02 PM
  #779
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honestly, between brouwer, hamrlik, chimera, neuvy and ovy, the caps may have the most lockout loud mouths in the league....and laich has not been one of them

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12-29-2012, 07:22 PM
  #780
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
honestly, between brouwer, hamrlik, chimera, neuvy and ovy, the caps may have the most lockout loud mouths in the league....and laich has not been one of them
Trust me, they aren't.

Upshall apparently isn't getting any from Melanie Collins, so he is mad at Bettman, he is being annoyingly loud.

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12-29-2012, 09:44 PM
  #781
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
honestly, between brouwer, hamrlik, chimera, neuvy and ovy, the caps may have the most lockout loud mouths in the league....and laich has not been one of them
Ovie has been much more political in his more recent comments, which makes me think someone told him to shut it.

For the record though, I don't care one bit what any player (or owner) says about the lockout. This is their livelihood, and their ticket to a potential lifetime of wealth. I'm not going to judge them for what they say about such a personal issue.

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12-29-2012, 10:21 PM
  #782
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Originally Posted by brs03 View Post
To be fair, Brouwer himself is the one who suggested it would...
players do plenty of backtracking when they say something controversial. it doesn't mean anything one way or another. certainly doesn't mean they hate each other enough for it to affect their stats.

regardless, the current proposal keeps the salary cap at 70 for this year and 60 for the year after. *IF* the cap hits stay at their current level against a reduced total cap (this is certainly not likely how it's going to be, as the math doesn't really work out for some teams), then this buyout problem is at least a year away.

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12-30-2012, 12:00 AM
  #783
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Originally Posted by Devil Dancer View Post
Ovie has been much more political in his more recent comments, which makes me think someone told him to shut it.

For the record though, I don't care one bit what any player (or owner) says about the lockout. This is their livelihood, and their ticket to a potential lifetime of wealth. I'm not going to judge them for what they say about such a personal issue.
Well Ovechkins concern was rollbacks, which haven't been part of an offer for 3 months.

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12-30-2012, 12:51 AM
  #784
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
last year was a dip for him, but if you haven't noticed, none of the caps players were any better. when he was used, he pretty much held his own against the opposition in terms of shots, and he played with worse teammates. if he was still producing at his nashville pace, $3m/yr would be a steal, and as a player, he's clearly closer to his '10-11 campaign, than his '11-12. he can handle tough minutes. certainly at a better clip than guys like aucoin, beagle, and hendrix. i don't think he was scratched fairly, and i think his minutes should have been longer.
A "dip?" I think you mean he continued his trend of scoring less than the year before. In each of his four full NHL seasons, he has scored fewer goals and points than the year before. He's a hard worker and is great along the boards, but he's not a very talented player. You can get a similar package from a guy making half that price. His "Nashville pace" was only averaging 13 goals and 30 points per season. Those are clearly bottom six numbers, so $3M would be an appropriate price at best. In no world is that a "steal." And he got those numbers playing top 6 minutes (~17 minutes a game and got 2nd unit PP time).

His '10-'11 campaign was 10 goals and 29 points. Whopee! He's closer to being the 235th best scorer in the NHL! And a full half of those goals came on the powerplay. Matt Hendricks only put up one less goal and four less points in 2010-11, and did so getting five and a half fewer minutes per game (with no powerplay time). And most importantly, his cap hit is only $825k rather than $3M. In fact, all three players you mentioned (Hendricks, Beagle, Aucoin) made approximately 60% of Ward's salary combined last season.

Joel Ward's contract isn't going to make or break the team. It's not that large. But it was bad value from day 1. In no world is it "team friendly."

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12-30-2012, 12:57 AM
  #785
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Especially considering mcphee himself admitted overpaying 10 to 15% to bring ward in.

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12-30-2012, 01:11 AM
  #786
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
A "dip?" I think you mean he continued his trend of scoring less than the year before. In each of his four full NHL seasons, he has scored fewer goals and points than the year before. He's a hard worker and is great along the boards, but he's not a very talented player. You can get a similar package from a guy making half that price. His "Nashville pace" was only averaging 13 goals and 30 points per season. Those are clearly bottom six numbers, so $3M would be an appropriate price at best. In no world is that a "steal." And he got those numbers playing top 6 minutes (~17 minutes a game and got 2nd unit PP time).

His '10-'11 campaign was 10 goals and 29 points. Whopee! He's closer to being the 235th best scorer in the NHL! And a full half of those goals came on the powerplay. Matt Hendricks only put up one less goal and four less points in 2010-11, and did so getting five and a half fewer minutes per game (with no powerplay time). And most importantly, his cap hit is only $825k rather than $3M. In fact, all three players you mentioned (Hendricks, Beagle, Aucoin) made approximately 60% of Ward's salary combined last season.

Joel Ward's contract isn't going to make or break the team. It's not that large. But it was bad value from day 1. In no world is it "team friendly."
it's not whether or not bottom 6 guys score points per year. ward's minutes were cut, of course he was going to lose points. they are not asked to score, and they hardly ever play on offensive capable lines. for a bottom-6 player, it's whether or not they can come close to breaking even against the toughs, or at least suppress their shots. that's exactly the type of player ward is. in nashville, he saw all sorts of linemates, played against hard competition, and was a positive player. some playoff luck didn't hurt either.

aucoin and beagle (not sure about hendricks) got a bunch of ozone possessions playing with ovie when backstrom was out. then they'd sometimes skate out as a bottom-6 and get properly dominated, because they can't handle those minutes.


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12-30-2012, 01:50 AM
  #787
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
A "dip?" I think you mean he continued his trend of scoring less than the year before. In each of his four full NHL seasons, he has scored fewer goals and points than the year before. He's a hard worker and is great along the boards, but he's not a very talented player. You can get a similar package from a guy making half that price. His "Nashville pace" was only averaging 13 goals and 30 points per season. Those are clearly bottom six numbers, so $3M would be an appropriate price at best. In no world is that a "steal." And he got those numbers playing top 6 minutes (~17 minutes a game and got 2nd unit PP time).

His '10-'11 campaign was 10 goals and 29 points. Whopee! He's closer to being the 235th best scorer in the NHL! And a full half of those goals came on the powerplay. Matt Hendricks only put up one less goal and four less points in 2010-11, and did so getting five and a half fewer minutes per game (with no powerplay time). And most importantly, his cap hit is only $825k rather than $3M. In fact, all three players you mentioned (Hendricks, Beagle, Aucoin) made approximately 60% of Ward's salary combined last season.

Joel Ward's contract isn't going to make or break the team. It's not that large. But it was bad value from day 1. In no world is it "team friendly."
It's a bad contract. Whether it was worth carrying has always hung on whether Playoff Hero Joel Ward was real or not. I was pretty sure he wasn't, but the playoffs have convinced me he is.

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12-30-2012, 03:13 AM
  #788
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Originally Posted by Langway View Post
Details of the league's offer. Waiver-exemption for in-season signing of club's own European players is an interesting little provision. As is expanding the lottery.
The other provision about AHL contracts being against the cap. Am I understanding this correctly? The players over a certain amount will reduce the Washington cap by $1,237,000?.

As of opening day rosters Putulny $525,00, Stafford $287,000, Kane $150,000, DeSalvatore $150,000 and Sabourin $125,000.

http://nhlnumbers.com/2012/10/20/ahl...-night-rosters
http://www.capgeek.com/capitals/depth-chart/

The first year with the $70 mil cap is won't impact as much however in the $60 million next year it will be felt.

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12-30-2012, 04:14 AM
  #789
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The other provision about AHL contracts being against the cap. Am I understanding this correctly? The players over a certain amount will reduce the Washington cap by $1,237,000?.
I think it's NHL contracts in the AHL or stashed in Europe so it's more for future Wade Reddens and Cristobal Huets but it depends on what the established threshold is.

Ward alone isn't a crippling contract but teams have to have priorities and he was always something of a luxury signing. It sounds as though such buyouts could still be made in the off-season so most teams would wait until then I'd think.

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12-30-2012, 04:52 AM
  #790
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
A "dip?" I think you mean he continued his trend of scoring less than the year before. In each of his four full NHL seasons, he has scored fewer goals and points than the year before. He's a hard worker and is great along the boards, but he's not a very talented player. You can get a similar package from a guy making half that price. His "Nashville pace" was only averaging 13 goals and 30 points per season. Those are clearly bottom six numbers, so $3M would be an appropriate price at best. In no world is that a "steal." And he got those numbers playing top 6 minutes (~17 minutes a game and got 2nd unit PP time).

His '10-'11 campaign was 10 goals and 29 points. Whopee! He's closer to being the 235th best scorer in the NHL! And a full half of those goals came on the powerplay. Matt Hendricks only put up one less goal and four less points in 2010-11, and did so getting five and a half fewer minutes per game (with no powerplay time). And most importantly, his cap hit is only $825k rather than $3M. In fact, all three players you mentioned (Hendricks, Beagle, Aucoin) made approximately 60% of Ward's salary combined last season.

Joel Ward's contract isn't going to make or break the team. It's not that large. But it was bad value from day 1. In no world is it "team friendly."
Yeah, Ward has a horrible contract for someone who was brought in primarily to pad regular season point stats. Though it's still not as bad as paying Ovechkin 9.5 million a year to be a goalie coach.

At least we got Wolski for 600k a year. That could be, like, 40 regular season points right there. SO MUCH VALUE! WE'RE SAVED!

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12-30-2012, 04:53 AM
  #791
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
honestly, between brouwer, hamrlik, chimera, neuvy and ovy, the caps may have the most lockout loud mouths in the league....and laich has not been one of them
The guy obsessed with sounding like an above the fray statesman at all costs isn't talking about an issue that would make him outspoken no matter what he says? Alert the news.

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12-30-2012, 07:31 AM
  #792
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
players do plenty of backtracking when they say something controversial. it doesn't mean anything one way or another. certainly doesn't mean they hate each other enough for it to affect their stats.

regardless, the current proposal keeps the salary cap at 70 for this year and 60 for the year after. *IF* the cap hits stay at their current level against a reduced total cap (this is certainly not likely how it's going to be, as the math doesn't really work out for some teams), then this buyout problem is at least a year away.
I don't believe it will either, I just figure it can't be overstated how ridiculously dumb it was to say what he said. I think I get what he was trying to say, but he chose just about the worst possible way to say it. I don't expect it to have future implications, but it's too funny not to bring up a few more times.

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12-30-2012, 01:06 PM
  #793
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Ruslan Salikhov ‏@rushockey
I should re-frase that - Ilya Bryzgalov: "I quit CSKA because lockout is ending"

hmmm Mr Universe saying lockout is over...

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12-30-2012, 03:12 PM
  #794
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
it's not whether or not bottom 6 guys score points per year. ward's minutes were cut, of course he was going to lose points. they are not asked to score, and they hardly ever play on offensive capable lines. for a bottom-6 player, it's whether or not they can come close to breaking even against the toughs, or at least suppress their shots. that's exactly the type of player ward is. in nashville, he saw all sorts of linemates, played against hard competition, and was a positive player. some playoff luck didn't hurt either.
Ward doesn't bring anything to the table that a $1-2M player couldn't. Max Talbot, Chris Neil, Jason Chimera, Daniel Winnik, Gregory Campbell, and Taylor Pyatt have all recently signed contracts for under $2M. If all you want is a defensive winger, they're much cheaper than $3M. Ward's contract puts him in the same wage bracket as high end, 3rd line centers like Dave Bolland, Chris Kelly, Jarret Stoll, and Dainius Zubrus.
Hell, even Troy Brouwer makes less than Ward.

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aucoin and beagle (not sure about hendricks) got a bunch of ozone possessions playing with ovie when backstrom was out. then they'd sometimes skate out as a bottom-6 and get properly dominated, because they can't handle those minutes.
Aucoin got some shifts with Ovechkin while they were experimenting without Backstrom, but neither Beagle nor Hendricks did. And even those shifts for Aucoin were a minority of his time, especially compared to how much time he spent in a 4th line energy role.

As for them getting "dominated" in a bottom six role, did you watch a single Caps game last year? First off, bottom six was their primary role, not their "sometimes" role. Secondly, Jay Beagle was excellent in that role last season. He was one of our best players in the playoffs, far outshining "playoff hero" Joel Ward. Just ask fans of Boston or New York what they think about Jay Beagle. And both Beagle and Hendricks started in the offensive zone less frequently than Ward did.

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12-31-2012, 12:56 PM
  #795
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Probably being discussed somewhere else but Ovi now engaged to Maria Kirilenko. What a gene tree. Mother Olympic Athlete, Father a pro soccer player, now the son marries a professional tennis player. Anyway we can draft Ovi's first born son in 2013?

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12-31-2012, 05:17 PM
  #796
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This actually has me concerned. These celebrity marriages NEVER work out -- name me the last one that has? Just hope my man knows what he's doing.

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01-01-2013, 07:33 PM
  #797
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Ward doesn't bring anything to the table that a $1-2M player couldn't. Max Talbot, Chris Neil, Jason Chimera, Daniel Winnik, Gregory Campbell, and Taylor Pyatt have all recently signed contracts for under $2M. If all you want is a defensive winger, they're much cheaper than $3M. Ward's contract puts him in the same wage bracket as high end, 3rd line centers like Dave Bolland, Chris Kelly, Jarret Stoll, and Dainius Zubrus.
Hell, even Troy Brouwer makes less than Ward.
you mention some nice deals in there, as well as some cheap deals which are not really good value (lol chris neil, you gotta be kidding). on the other hand, you ignore all the bad 3rd liner deals which are for $4m+. sure, ward's contract is not the best one out there, but if you think capable guys grow on trees at $3m, that's just wrong.

Quote:
Aucoin got some shifts with Ovechkin while they were experimenting without Backstrom, but neither Beagle nor Hendricks did. And even those shifts for Aucoin were a minority of his time, especially compared to how much time he spent in a 4th line energy role.

As for them getting "dominated" in a bottom six role, did you watch a single Caps game last year? First off, bottom six was their primary role, not their "sometimes" role. Secondly, Jay Beagle was excellent in that role last season. He was one of our best players in the playoffs, far outshining "playoff hero" Joel Ward. Just ask fans of Boston or New York what they think about Jay Beagle. And both Beagle and Hendricks started in the offensive zone less frequently than Ward did.
aucoin got 50.8 ozone start, and he had a 45.9 ozone finish. he is by far the worst guy in terms of moving the puck away from your own net. and he played against worse than average competition. you can look that up. he also got a lot of PP time for someone like him. he got close to 95% PP ozone start, and finished in the forties. that means that even when he was on the powerplay, the opponent may have been more likely to bring the puck into our end than the caps got a shot on goal. that's embarassing. aucoin didn't only not hold up his own in any situation, he made everyone around him worse.

beagle is a special case. he sees little of anything except his own zone, but he also doesn't seem to ever get out of his own zone. pretty much neutral at his own end, and zero offensive game. that kind of player is a dime a dozen. a guy like ward does a lot more in terms of moving the puck away from his own net.

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01-01-2013, 10:53 PM
  #798
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Originally Posted by newfr4u View Post
you mention some nice deals in there, as well as some cheap deals which are not really good value (lol chris neil, you gotta be kidding). on the other hand, you ignore all the bad 3rd liner deals which are for $4m+. sure, ward's contract is not the best one out there, but if you think capable guys grow on trees at $3m, that's just wrong.
And which of those expensive bottom six wingers were actually acquired to play a role like Ward's? And which of them are on winning teams? Of course his deal is better than Matt Stajan or Shawn Horcoff. Those are players on awful contracts on awful teams. Claiming Ward's deal is "team friendly" just because it's not the absolute worst contract out there is ridiculous. The goal isn't to be "not last."

Ward's contract isn't a cancer that cripples the team's odds. But it's certainly a significant overpayment for the services Ward provides.

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aucoin got 50.8 ozone start, and he had a 45.9 ozone finish. he is by far the worst guy in terms of moving the puck away from your own net. and he played against worse than average competition. you can look that up. he also got a lot of PP time for someone like him. he got close to 95% PP ozone start, and finished in the forties. that means that even when he was on the powerplay, the opponent may have been more likely to bring the puck into our end than the caps got a shot on goal. that's embarassing. aucoin didn't only not hold up his own in any situation, he made everyone around him worse.
I'm not defending Aucoin or Hunter's usage of him. He sucked and should not have been playing with the Caps. I like him as an AHL veteran, but he's not a full time NHL player. I am not advocating filling the bottom six with Aucoins. I'm simply saying that Ward is significantly overpaid for the role he plays.

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beagle is a special case. he sees little of anything except his own zone, but he also doesn't seem to ever get out of his own zone. pretty much neutral at his own end, and zero offensive game. that kind of player is a dime a dozen. a guy like ward does a lot more in terms of moving the puck away from his own net.
Beagle and Hendricks were both fine in their roles, especially at their price range. Combined, they only count $1.725M against the cap, just over half of Ward's price.

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01-02-2013, 12:30 AM
  #799
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I don't know why this would have anything to do with the CBA, but apparently there is leak about the possibility of 10 teams per conference making the playoffs.

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01-02-2013, 01:10 AM
  #800
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
And which of those expensive bottom six wingers were actually acquired to play a role like Ward's? And which of them are on winning teams? Of course his deal is better than Matt Stajan or Shawn Horcoff. Those are players on awful contracts on awful teams. Claiming Ward's deal is "team friendly" just because it's not the absolute worst contract out there is ridiculous. The goal isn't to be "not last."

Ward's contract isn't a cancer that cripples the team's odds. But it's certainly a significant overpayment for the services Ward provides.
being on winning teams has nothing to do it. when a team signs a player, they are usually paying for the player that guy is, rather than the role he is going to fill. ward had other offers from teams that would have played him more, but washington bid more. it's not in ward's control that he was completely misused and given much shorter minutes.

yes, it's too much to pay for 12 mins/game. he should absolutely play more to earn that money. especially since each of his minutes is better than a player who is getting paid less than half.

it's a team-friendly contract because if ward gets fewer scratches and more minutes, he could easily hold the toughs and score against softer lines. those are services that are not easily found, and having them on the ice in the same player is a premium. and if he can provide something extra in the small sample of the playoffs, that's icing on the cake.

Quote:
I'm not defending Aucoin or Hunter's usage of him. He sucked and should not have been playing with the Caps. I like him as an AHL veteran, but he's not a full time NHL player. I am not advocating filling the bottom six with Aucoins. I'm simply saying that Ward is significantly overpaid for the role he plays.

Beagle and Hendricks were both fine in their roles, especially at their price range. Combined, they only count $1.725M against the cap, just over half of Ward's price.
if their role is to stay in their own end, chase the puck, commit more penalties than drawing, and blocking shots, sure they did their role. if their role is to move the puck forward, they are simply not as good, and they don't get paid as much.

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