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Old
12-26-2012, 01:09 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
Referees and Linesmen are a part of the game and have every right to be on the ice. They are there to maintain order when players with your mindset can't control themselves or break the rules. Sometimes, when a player shoots the puck without looking, they hit the official. Sometimes when they shoot the puck to try and score a goal, they hit the goal post. By your reasoning, there shouldn't be goal posts.
Refs are not playing the game.

I can have a game without Refs. You cant ref a game without players.

Your job is to control the game. That doesnt mean being in the way. WOuld a player on the opposing team go over to the bench and yell at player for hitting him with the puck? Or, by your reasoning, would the post go over to the bench and cus at a player for doing that?

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12-26-2012, 01:21 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
Refs are not playing the game.

I can have a game without Refs. You cant ref a game without players.

Your job is to control the game. That doesnt mean being in the way. WOuld a player on the opposing team go over to the bench and yell at player for hitting him with the puck? Or, by your reasoning, would the post go over to the bench and cus at a player for doing that?
That's true, you can play street hockey without referees. I got PAID for being on the ice. So, I guess that referees are a necessary part of the ORGANIZED game. At least in the many leagues that I worked.

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12-26-2012, 01:26 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
That's true, you can play street hockey without referees. I got PAID for being on the ice. So, I guess that referees are a necessary part of the ORGANIZED game. At least in the many leagues that I worked.
Good, so you are at the same level as the zamboni driver and the lady selling hot chocolate. Know your role.

I wish every ref went into games thinking, "How can I make this the best game for these players?". Skating over to the bench and telling a player to stop clearing the puck is pathetic, and thats what gives refs a bad rep. If this ref goes over and says, "Hey, I'm getting old, give me an extra second next time," and laughs it off, the entire atmosphere of the game would be different, and I highly doubt he's going to be 'targeted' (as the scenario seemed to imply) by that player/eam.

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12-26-2012, 01:48 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
Good, so you are at the same level as the zamboni driver and the lady selling hot chocolate. Know your role.

I wish every ref went into games thinking, "How can I make this the best game for these players?". Skating over to the bench and telling a player to stop clearing the puck is pathetic, and thats what gives refs a bad rep. If this ref goes over and says, "Hey, I'm getting old, give me an extra second next time," and laughs it off, the entire atmosphere of the game would be different, and I highly doubt he's going to be 'targeted' (as the scenario seemed to imply) by that player/eam.
I would say refs turn a drop in dangle fest into a legitimate league game. However, I will say that priority should be given to those that essentially pay the refs salary by forking out dough to play.

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12-26-2012, 01:56 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
Good, so you are at the same level as the zamboni driver and the lady selling hot chocolate. Know your role.

I wish every ref went into games thinking, "How can I make this the best game for these players?". Skating over to the bench and telling a player to stop clearing the puck is pathetic, and thats what gives refs a bad rep. If this ref goes over and says, "Hey, I'm getting old, give me an extra second next time," and laughs it off, the entire atmosphere of the game would be different, and I highly doubt he's going to be 'targeted' (as the scenario seemed to imply) by that player/eam.
I don't know what level you play, if any, but I have never b****ed at a player who hit me with the puck unless he told me to get out of the way. I have been on the ice with, who at the time, were some of the best hockey players in the world and never had that problem. You may think that I'm equivalent to the Zamboni Driver or the lady that sells hot chocolate, so be it. However, I've been selected to work national championships in both the USA and Canada and not only did I get paid, I was on the ice for the whole game, no substitutions.

I assume that every one of your passes hit the mark. Every one of your shots on goal never missed the net and went in. Every body check you threw was right on and no player was able to skate around you. Damn, it sounds good to be perfect.

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12-26-2012, 02:17 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
This is what I don't like about refs, summed up.

Listen, you are there to ref the game, you are not IN the game.
Way to bring up a dead topic, after further explanation of the situation by the OP we concluded the linesman was in the wrong.


Last edited by DaveG: 12-26-2012 at 02:43 PM.
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12-26-2012, 02:19 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
I don't know what level you play, if any, but I have never b****ed at a player who hit me with the puck unless he told me to get out of the way. I have been on the ice with, who at the time, were some of the best hockey players in the world and never had that problem. You may think that I'm equivalent to the Zamboni Driver or the lady that sells hot chocolate, so be it. However, I've been selected to work national championships in both the USA and Canada and not only did I get paid, I was on the ice for the whole game, no substitutions.

I assume that every one of your passes hit the mark. Every one of your shots on goal never missed the net and went in. Every body check you threw was right on and no player was able to skate around you. Damn, it sounds good to be perfect.
Should have stopped there. Good. And I was addressing a ref that wanted to do otherwise.

The rest of this garbage -

Just an FYI - I always played at the top level, through late teens. Since, I've moved on and have worked in several different organizations, some professional, but I've been lucky enough to be paid to watch hockey games. For the millions of hours of hockey I've played and watch, the majority of refs carry a chip on their shoulder (as you illustrated by getting defensive when you wanted to make this about you, when we were discussing a beer league official) that really hurts the game. The lack of discretion and ability to make in-game decisions to help the actual hockey game being played is embarassing. I'm glad to hear you never (or rarely) feel the need to challenge players in what they are doing. I'm sure you would not tolerate a situation in which the roles were reveresed. I have no issues with refs who stick to their jobs, but going beyond that, and defending such actions is inappropriate for the game.

This same mentality applies to players, coaches, as well, not just picking on refs.

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12-26-2012, 06:45 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
Refs are not playing the game.

I can have a game without Refs. You cant ref a game without players.

Your job is to control the game. That doesnt mean being in the way. WOuld a player on the opposing team go over to the bench and yell at player for hitting him with the puck? Or, by your reasoning, would the post go over to the bench and cus at a player for doing that?
Probably, Niedermayer didn't seem to enjoy having Alfie shoot a puck at him...

Also, refs are pretty vital... Who else is meant to sign the gamesheet at the end?

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12-27-2012, 06:45 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post

This same mentality applies to players, coaches, as well, not just picking on refs.
And apparently you.

Also, those millions of hours of hockey, that translates into 114 years just for the first million. Didn't even realize they had been playing the game that long.

Way to build credibility points Champ

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12-28-2012, 02:00 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by jw2 View Post
I've played and watch, the majority of refs carry a chip on their shoulder (as you illustrated by getting defensive when you wanted to make this about you, when we were discussing a beer league official) that really hurts the game.
When you came out with these dumb azz comments about referees, I wasn't getting defensive about it, I was using my experience to point out your ignorance. By pointing out your ignorance, you say that I have a chip on my shoulder? You make about as much sense as a goal post.

Millions of hours of hockey. Wow! Too many elbows to the head will do that. Maybe that's why you have this thing about referees. They never called a penalty when it happened to you.

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12-29-2012, 10:29 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
When you came out with these dumb azz comments about referees, I wasn't getting defensive about it, I was using my experience to point out your ignorance. By pointing out your ignorance, you say that I have a chip on my shoulder? You make about as much sense as a goal post.

Millions of hours of hockey. Wow! Too many elbows to the head will do that. Maybe that's why you have this thing about referees. They never called a penalty when it happened to you.
Plenty of refs at the lower levels have chips on their shoulders. Heck, you see it in the NHL where some refs just happen to have grudges against certain teams for whatever reason. You don't think it's worse at the beer league levels, especially when the refs are from the area and most likely have a prior history (good or bad) with the players in the game they are officiating?

Lets be honest, not every ref knows the rule book like the back of their hand, and most players definitely don't. You can say all you want about how players make mistakes too, but the next time I get an admission of a mistake from a ref, will be the first time. We understand that refs make mistakes, it is the absolute unwillingness to acknowledge that mistake that pisses everyone off

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12-29-2012, 12:28 PM
  #87
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but the next time I get an admission of a mistake from a ref, will be the first time.
Here's your first time admission from a referee who made a mistake. It's from an article that I wrote.

The next year, 1959-1960, I worked the full Warriors home schedule and I was made a referee in the MJHL. I was 20 years old. On Valentines Day 1960 during a game between the Winnipeg Rangers and Brandon Wheat Kings, a fight broke out early in overtime. Everyone on the ice including the goalies was involved. I was the referee. When the fight ended everyone on the ice received penalties. With 52 seconds left in overtime, Brandon scored. The Rangers started screaming that Brandon had too many men on the ice. I counted the players and Brandon did have an extra player. I waved the goal off. One of my Linesmen came over to me and told me that the Brandon Goalie came back onto the ice after the goal. I hadnít seen him skate off. I checked with the other Linesman and he confirmed what the first Linesman told me. I then reversed myself again and allowed the goal. At that time, there was no sudden death overtime. You played the full ten minutes. I was at center ice ready to take the face off when all hell broke loose. A fight started at center ice and both benches emptied. The players in the penalty box from the first fight joined in. The strange thing about it was that it wasnít a big mob scene. There were 16 different fights going on, even a player who had been ejected from the game came onto the ice from his dressing room with his street clothes on. It looked like one big conga line from one end of the rink to the other. The Rink Manager called the police. By the time the police got there (4 squad cars), it was all over. I called the game with 52 seconds left. I had issued 448 minutes in penalties, a Canadian Junior Hockey record. Talk about the St. Valentines Day Massacre


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12-29-2012, 01:02 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
Plenty of refs at the lower levels have chips on their shoulders. Heck, you see it in the NHL where some refs just happen to have grudges against certain teams for whatever reason. You don't think it's worse at the beer league levels, especially when the refs are from the area and most likely have a prior history (good or bad) with the players in the game they are officiating?

Lets be honest, not every ref knows the rule book like the back of their hand, and most players definitely don't. You can say all you want about how players make mistakes too, but the next time I get an admission of a mistake from a ref, will be the first time. We understand that refs make mistakes, it is the absolute unwillingness to acknowledge that mistake that pisses everyone off
Referees and linesmen are taught to sell their calls no matter how crap it is, always. If you admit mistake during the game you lose all credibility and it makes life extremely difficult for you for the rest of the game. If you're going to admit you ****ed up you do it when the game is over.

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12-29-2012, 11:39 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
Referees and linesmen are taught to sell their calls no matter how crap it is, always. If you admit mistake during the game you lose all credibility and it makes life extremely difficult for you for the rest of the game. If you're going to admit you ****ed up you do it when the game is over.
That is the worst attitude in the world. I can respect a ref who can admit he made a mistake and will do his best not to make it again. Your thought process is just begging of me to verbally berate you the rest of the game every time you make an iffy call

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12-30-2012, 04:07 AM
  #90
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but the next time I get an admission of a mistake from a ref, will be the first time.
Well, be prepared to wait a bloody long time... Officials are told to sell the call, even if they then go actually yeah that was wrong... If I make a mistake I'll admit at the end, and ONLY at the end.

So yeah. Have fun waiting for that because It's never gonna happen...

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12-30-2012, 05:40 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Beezeral View Post
That is the worst attitude in the world. I can respect a ref who can admit he made a mistake and will do his best not to make it again. Your thought process is just begging of me to verbally berate you the rest of the game every time you make an iffy call
No it's the right one, it's what we are TOLD to do!

We are not there to earn your respect and make friends, we are there to control the game.

If you verbally berate me, you can sit for 10.

In certain situations you can admit when you are wrong, but ONLY on calls that are NOT judgement and if you are going to admit mistake you have to do it there and then not later in the game. Perfect examples of this are puck over the glass originally calling it or not calling it but then being told by a linesman that it was/wasn't, after calling too many men but it wasn't. And once when I was linesman the ref called a high stick to the face that drew blood but changed the call when I told him I was 110% sure the puck hit the player in the face not a stick. Linesmen can also admit when they've messed up an icing call by taking the faceoff to centre ice instead of the defensive zone.


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12-30-2012, 07:19 AM
  #92
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We are not there to earn your respect
It sure helps to earn the players respect. It makes your job easier. Again, from the article that I wrote.

Earning the respect of players, coaches and fellow officials is a very important part of the game. It makes your job easier. You do that by skating hard, knowing the rules, being honest, being fair, being in good condition, showing respect to the players and using common sense. Also, be consistent, firm in your calls and in position. I used the Rule Book as a guide not a God. Learn from your mistakes, because you will make them. And donít criticize fellow officials behind their backs. Donít hesitate to help younger and newer officials.

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12-30-2012, 07:37 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
It sure helps to earn the players respect. It makes your job easier. Again, from the article that I wrote.

Earning the respect of players, coaches and fellow officials is a very important part of the game. It makes your job easier. You do that by skating hard, knowing the rules, being honest, being fair, being in good condition, showing respect to the players and using common sense. Also, be consistent, firm in your calls and in position. I used the Rule Book as a guide not a God. Learn from your mistakes, because you will make them. And don’t criticize fellow officials behind their backs. Don’t hesitate to help younger and newer officials.
I know it helps but it's not the reason we are there.

Controlling the game comes first, if you can control the game well then the respect will come without you having to do anything else.

I would rather be respected for being a good ref than because the players like me because I'm a "good guy" even if I'm a terrible ref. You describe the former in your article anyway.


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12-30-2012, 10:47 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Imaginary Threats View Post
I know it helps but it's not the reason we are there.

Controlling the game comes first, if you can control the game well then the respect will come without you having to do anything else.

I would rather be respected for being a good ref than because the players like me because I'm a "good guy" even if I'm a terrible ref. You describe the former in your article anyway.
You aren't controlling the game by making controversial calls then sending more players to the box for being upset. You are begging for a mutiny on the ice. Communication between players and officials is so important, but its probably the one skill most refs don't have. If you want to keep control of the game, if someone isn't happy with a borderline call, take the 15 seconds to explain it to him or the head coach. The goes a long way to keeping people calm. The attitude of being perfect/correct no matter what is atrocious.

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12-30-2012, 12:04 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by mbhhofr View Post
It sure helps to earn the players respect. It makes your job easier. Again, from the article that I wrote.

Earning the respect of players, coaches and fellow officials is a very important part of the game. It makes your job easier. You do that by skating hard, knowing the rules, being honest, being fair, being in good condition, showing respect to the players and using common sense. Also, be consistent, firm in your calls and in position. I used the Rule Book as a guide not a God. Learn from your mistakes, because you will make them. And donít criticize fellow officials behind their backs. Donít hesitate to help younger and newer officials.
I go fully by the rules...

If it's even an inch offside, I WILL blow that whistle.. I don't care what players think of me, I know most of them hate me... But hey, I don't care, I get paid to do a job as a professional and I WILL do that job... Sure I've built a good rapport with the local team and we can have a laugh, but that's because they know what to expect from me and they know that if they take the piss, like anyone else, I will literally throw the rulebook at them..

I don't care if you think I'm being a ***, it makes me happy

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12-30-2012, 12:25 PM
  #96
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Fair play to the refs on here that aren't budging.

Most of the players posting sound like absolute whiners, it's embarrassing. Worse when my team does it in a game.

Play by the rules and don't earn a reputation of constantly arguing every call or you will help create the proverbial chip on the shoulder.

Captains/assistant capt. Should be the only ones talking to a ref and players should do their part in controlling a game as well.

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12-30-2012, 02:41 PM
  #97
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You describe the former in your article anyway.
You got the point that I was making.

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12-30-2012, 02:44 PM
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I don't care if you think I'm being a ***, it makes me happy
Why would you think that I think that you're being an ***?

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12-30-2012, 03:10 PM
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You aren't controlling the game by making controversial calls then sending more players to the box for being upset. You are begging for a mutiny on the ice. Communication between players and officials is so important, but its probably the one skill most refs don't have. If you want to keep control of the game, if someone isn't happy with a borderline call, take the 15 seconds to explain it to him or the head coach. The goes a long way to keeping people calm. The attitude of being perfect/correct no matter what is atrocious.
I do take time to explain, even if I have to make up some crap to convince them and I always make sure I use the phrase "in my opinion" or "from my position I saw..." to take away the perception of infallibility.

Refs will never change their mind on a judgement penalty, so it's stupid for the players to think they can get us to change our mind. If ref did admit he was wrong and change his mind, that might earn him the respect of one team but he will lose it from the other team who are going to be pissed off and say the usual "who is calling this game ref? You or them?" Sometimes you might realise you may have made a dodgy call but you've blown the whistle now so it's too late, you can't change your mind. Either you make the dodgy call and one team hates you, or make the dodgy call then after the team complains then you change your mind and now most likely both teams hate you. Which is better?


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12-30-2012, 05:41 PM
  #100
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i do take time to explain, even if i have to make up some crap to convince them and i always make sure i use the phrase "in my opinion" or "from my position i saw..." to take away the perception of infallibility.

Refs will never change their mind on a judgement penalty, so it's stupid for the players to think they can get us to change our mind. If ref did admit he was wrong and change his mind, that might earn him the respect of one team but he will lose it from the other team who are going to be pissed off and say the usual "who is calling this game ref? You or them?" sometimes you might realise you may have made a dodgy call but you've blown the whistle now so it's too late, you can't change your mind. Either you make the dodgy call and one team hates you, or make the dodgy call then after the team complains then you change your mind and now most likely both teams hate you. Which is better?
getting the call RIGHT!

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