HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-30-2012, 12:31 AM
  #1
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
Round 2, Vote 8 (HOH Top Goaltenders)

Before we begin, just a recap on how Round 2 will operate:

Round 2
  • The top ranked players from the aggregate list will be posted in a thread
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • Voters will rank their top available goaltenders
  • Final results will be posted and the top 4 vote getters will be added to the final list in order.
  • The process will be repeated for the next 4 places with remaining players until a list of 60 players is obtained

These might be tweaked to allow longer or shorter debating periods depending on how the process moves along.

Additionally, there are a couple guidelines we'd ask that everyone agree to abide by:
  • Please try to stay on-topic in the thread
  • Please remember that this is a debate on opinions and there is no right or wrong. Please try to avoid words like "stupid" "dumb" "wrong" "sophistry" etc. when debating.
  • Please treat other debaters with respect
  • Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
  • Please maintain an open mind. The purpose of the debate is to convince others that your views are more valid. If nobody is willing to accept their opinions as flexible there really is no point in debating.

Eliglible Voters (27):
Bring Back Scuderi; Canadiens1958; ContrarianGoaltender; DaveG; Dennis Bonvie; Dreakmur; foame; Hawkey Town 18; intylerwetrust; Jagorim Jarg; Johnny Engine; MadArcand; Mike Farkas; MXD; Nalyd Psycho; pappyline; quoipourquoi; reckoning; seventieslord; steve141; Sturminator; Taco MacArthur; tarheelhockey; TheDevilMadeMe; tony D; VanIslander; vecens24

All posters are encouraged to participate in the debates and discussions, but only those listed above will be eligible for the final votes.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:35 AM
  #2
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
Vote 8 will begin now and debates are scheduled to run through Tuesday, January 8. You can send votes to TheDevilMadeMe beginning on January 6.

Any voter who does not get a confirmation within 24 hours of submitting a ballot should assume that we never received it

Please note that you are ranking 8 of 15 candidates this time.

Vote 8 will be for places 29 through 32 on the Top 40 list.

Here are the candidates, listed alphabetically:

Tom Barrasso
Lorne Chabot
Gerry Cheevers
Alec Connell
Vladimir Dzurilla
Ed Giacomin
Hap Holmes
Curtis Joseph
Dave Kerr
Percy LeSueur
Mike Liut
Roberto Luongo
Tim Thomas
John Vanbiesbrouck
Rogie Vachon

MOD NOTE: Posts that don't focus on the available goalies will be deleted or moved at the discretion of the moderators.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-30-2012 at 01:54 AM. Reason: spelling LeSueur's name
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:36 AM
  #3
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,560
vCash: 500
Quote:
Please don't be a wallflower. All eligible voters are VERY HIGHLY encouraged to be active participants in the debate.
I'd love to participate a bit more, but I don't really have too much to add. I did some research in an excel file prior to the tournament but my laptop was stolen so I don't even have so much as my original list.

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:00 AM
  #4
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
NHL All Star Teams

I'm including the unofficial GM-voted teams from the late 20s when available. 3rd Team All Stars are unofficial but based off the same pool of votes that determine 1st and 2nd Team.

Percy LeSueur and Hap Holmes pre-dated the NHL All-Star Teams, and Vladimir Dzurilla spent his career in Europe.

Alec Connell
  • 3rd Team All Star (1928) behind Worters and Hainsworth - the only year before 1931 we have records past 1st
  • 3rd Team All Star* (1935) behind Lorne Chabot and Tiny Thompson. *possibly tied with Roy Worters for 3rd

Lorne Chabot
  • 1st Team All Star (1935) over Tiny Thompson, Roy Worters/Alec Connell
4 goalies received votes for the 1927-28 GM-voted All Star team; Chabot wasn't one of them. Chabot tied for 4th in 1931 (2 votes), finished 5th in 1932 (3 votes), 5th in 1933 (3 votes).

Dave Kerr
  • 2nd Team All Star (1938) behind Tiny Thompson, over Wilf Cude
  • 3rd Team All Star (1939) behind rookie Frank Brimsek and Earl Robertson
  • 1st Team All Star (1940) ahead of Frank Brimsek and Earl Robertson
Kerr finished 4th in 1937.

Ed Giacomin
  • 1st Team All Star (1967) ahead of Glenn Hall and Denis DeJordy
  • 2nd Team All Star (1968) behind Gump Worsley, ahead of Johnny Bower
  • 2nd Team All Star (1969) behind Glenn Hall, ahead of Jacques Plante
  • 2nd Team All Star (1970) behind Tony Esposito, ahead of Jacques Plante
  • 1st Team All Star (1971) ahead of Tony Esposito and Jacques Plante
Giacomin finished 6th in 1973 - behind his teammate Gilles Villemure who was 3rd.

Gerry Cheevers
Never finished top 4 in NHL All-Star voting.
His best is 5th in 1969. He also finished 6th in 1970, 1977, and 1979.

In the WHA:
  • 1972-73 WHA All-Star Team (1st)
  • 1973-74 WHA All-Star Team (2nd)
  • 1974-75 WHA All-Star Team (2nd)

Rogie Vachon
  • 2nd Team All Star (1975) behind Bernie Parent, ahead of Gary Smith
  • 2nd Team All Star (1977) behind Ken Dryden, ahead of Chico Resch
Vachon finished 4th in 1974 and 1978.

Mike Liut
  • 3rd Team All Star (1980) behind Tony Esposito and Don Edwards
  • 1st Team All Star (1981) ahead of Mario Lessard and Don Edwards
  • 2nd Team All Star (1987) behind Ron Hextall, ahead of Grant Fuhr

Liut finished 4th in 1990.

Tom Barrasso
  • 1st Team All Star (1984) ahead of Rejean Lemelin and Pat Riggin
  • 2nd Team All Star (1985) behind Pelle Lindbergh, ahead of Rejean Lemelin
  • 3rd Team All Star (1988) behind Grant Fuhr and Patrick Roy
  • 2nd Team All Star (1993) behind Ed Belfour, ahead of Felix Potvin
Barrasso was 4th in All Star voting in 1998 behind Hasek, Brodeur, and Belfour!

John Vanbiesbrouck
  • 1st Team All Star (1986) ahead of Bob Froese and Grant Fuhr
  • 2nd Team All Star (1994) behind Dominik Hasek, ahead of Patrick Roy

Beezer technically finished tied for 4th in 1997, but with very few votes.

Curtis Joseph
Never finished top 3 in All Star voting.
Finished 4th in 1993 and 1999, and 5th in 2000.

Roberto Luongo
  • 2nd Team All Star (2004) behind Martin Brodeur, ahead of Marty Turco
  • 2nd Team All Star (2007) behind Martin Brodeur, ahead of Dominik Hasek
  • 3rd Team All Star (2009) behind Tim Thomas and Steve Mason
  • 3rd Team All Star (2011) behind Tim Thomas and Pekka Rinne

Luongo finished 5th in 2008

Tim Thomas
  • 1st Team All Star (2009) ahead of Steve Mason and Roberto Luongo
  • 1st Team All Star (2011) ahead of Pekka Rinne and Roberto Luongo


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-30-2012 at 11:27 AM. Reason: spelling
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:07 AM
  #5
bluesfan94
#BackesforSelke
 
bluesfan94's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: St. Louis
Country: United States
Posts: 8,851
vCash: 500
Asked this last thread when it wasn't as pertinent, but could someone compare Thomas and Giacomin for me?

bluesfan94 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:07 AM
  #6
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 34,443
vCash: 500
Lord have mercy, I don't even know where to start. Percy LeSeuer vs Vladimir Dzurilla vs Mike Liut... let the games begin.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:09 AM
  #7
kmad
Riot Survivor
 
kmad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 32,560
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Asked this last thread when it wasn't as pertinent, but could someone compare Thomas and Giacomin for me?
Quick and dirty:

Thomas higher peak, better playoff success

Giacomin significant advantage in longevity


-----------

Question to all: When comparing modern goalies to older goalies, if a modern goalie has a poor international record (or no international record), do we hold it against them, considering in most cases (exception: Tretiak, Vachon, a few others) that the older goalie had no chance to compile one?

kmad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:13 AM
  #8
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
Vezina vs All Star voting

From last thread:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Another thing I noticed when compiling All Star records - Barrasso, Beezer, and Cujo all have one thing in common - all of them did much better in Vezina voting than in All-Star voting.

Speculation: The GMs who vote on the Vezina prefer guys with track records, while the media who vote for the All-Star like fresh stories.

Barrasso Vezina record: 1st (1984), 2nd (1985), 2nd (1988), 2nd (1993), 3rd (1998), 7th (1989) 9th (1986)
Barrasso All-Star record: 1st (1984), 2nd (1985), 2nd (1993), 3rd (1988), 4th (1998), 8th (1986)

Vanbiesbrouck Vezina record: 1st (1986), 2nd (1994), 4th (1989), 6th (1992), 6th (1987), 6th (1988), 6th (1995), 7th (1996), 8th (1997)
Vanbiesbrouck All-Star record: 1st (1986), 2nd (1994), 4th (1997), 9th (1988)

Joseph Vezina record: 2nd (1999), 3rd (1993), 3rd (2000), 4th (1994), 5th (1997), 8th (2001)
Joseph All-Star record: 4th (1993), 4th (1999), 5th (2000), 8th (1992)

min 2 votes required for an All-Star ranking.
Roberto Luongo, on the other hand, did slightly better with the writers than with the GMs:

Luongo Vezina record: 2nd (2007), 3rd (2004), 3rd (2011), 4th (2009), 7th (2006), 7th (2008), 10th (2010)
Luongo All Star record: 2nd (2004), 2nd (2007), 3rd (2009), 3rd (2011), 5th (2008), 8th (2006)

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:19 AM
  #9
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
Vezina Trophy Shares

times = times a player received at least 1 vote from a GM
share = sum of seasonal Vezina shares
playertimesshare
Martin Brodeur155.4072
Dominik Hasek114.7591
Patrick Roy174.6216
Ed Belfour112.5044
Tom Barrasso71.9833
Grant Fuhr81.5901
Roberto Luongo71.5600
Tim Thomas31.5533
John Vanbiesbrouck91.5329
Henrik Lundqvist71.4933
Miikka Kiprusoff71.4333
Evgeni Nabokov61.2267
Ron Hextall51.0359
Curtis Joseph81.0247
Pete Peeters31.0190
...  
Mike Liut50.6762

Liut is hurt by the fact that 2 of his best 3 seasons (based on All Star votes) happened before the Vezina was voted on.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:26 AM
  #10
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 34,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
Question to all: When comparing modern goalies to older goalies, if a modern goalie has a poor international record (or no international record), do we hold it against them, considering in most cases (exception: Tretiak, Vachon, a few others) that the older goalie had no chance to compile one?
Depends on how poor.

If we're talking about being just average, unremarkable, not outstanding... no, I'm inclined to blow that off. Short tournaments require a bit of luck, catching a goalie on a hot streak. Sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. Not a big deal.

But if the guy went out and stunk, cost his team medals, sunk an entire national program... yeah, I'm going to look at that as a minus. I mean, it's part of his résumé, right? Some guys don't get a chance to play in the Finals, but that doesn't let anyone off the hook for being terrible in the Finals.

tarheelhockey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:37 AM
  #11
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Lord have mercy, I don't even know where to start. Percy LeSeuer vs Vladimir Dzurilla vs Mike Liut... let the games begin.
I would be VERY interested if someone compared Percy Lesueur to Hap Holmes. Finishing 2nd to Georges Vezina in that "all-time all-star team" survey from 1925 is definitely a feather in LeSeuer's cap, even if the survey was criticized for having an Eastern bias.

I have no idea what to do with Dzurilla.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagorim Jarg View Post
Quick and dirty:

Thomas higher peak, better playoff success

Giacomin significant advantage in longevity
I think Giacomin was more consistent in his peak - 5 straight years of all-star votes. But outside of those 5 years, he was a fairly unremarkable platoon goalie.

Thomas vs Giacomin is an awkward comparison for me.

Quote:
Question to all: When comparing modern goalies to older goalies, if a modern goalie has a poor international record (or no international record), do we hold it against them, considering in most cases (exception: Tretiak, Vachon, a few others) that the older goalie had no chance to compile one?
When I voted Worters a couple of spots over Esposito, my rational was that they had very similar regular season resumes, but being an unknown in the playoffs was better than having known playoff problems. I'd use a similar rational here - if a goalie really stunk in an international tournament, I think it's similar to really stinking in a single playoff series and I would hold it against him, but no more than I'd hold stinking in a single playoff series.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Depends on how poor.

If we're talking about being just average, unremarkable, not outstanding... no, I'm inclined to blow that off. Short tournaments require a bit of luck, catching a goalie on a hot streak. Sometimes it just doesn't work out that way. Not a big deal.

But if the guy went out and stunk, cost his team medals, sunk an entire national program... yeah, I'm going to look at that as a minus. I mean, it's part of his résumé, right? Some guys don't get a chance to play in the Finals, but that doesn't let anyone off the hook for being terrible in the Finals.
Pretty much this. Mike Liut did himself no favors in the 1981 Canada Cup, that's for sure.


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-30-2012 at 01:55 AM. Reason: been spelling LeSueur's name wrong this whole time
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:52 AM
  #12
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
Hart Trophy Top 5 finishes

name1st2nd3rd4th5thtotal
Rogie Vachon011002
Mike Liut011002
John Vanbiesbrouck001012
Ed Giacomin010001
Roberto Luongo010001
Curtis Joseph000101
Tim Thomas000011

Dzurilla, Holmes, and LeSueur weren't eligible. Barrasso, Chabot, Cheevers, Connell, and Kerr never finished top 5.

Junk stat for team success

Dzurilla never competed for the Stanley Cup. LeSueur pre-dates the playoff era, but he has a 7-2 record in Stanley Cup challenge games and won Stanley Cup challenges in 1910 and 1911.

nameCupsfinalsSmythestotal
Hap Holmes47011
Eddie Cheevers2406
Alec Connell2215
Lorne Chabot2305
Tom Barrasso2204
Dave Kerr1203
Rogie Vachon1203
Tim Thomas1113
Ed Giacomcin0101
John Vanbiesbrouck0101
Roberto Luongo0101
Mike Liut0000
Curtis Joseph0000

I'm including Retroactive Conn Smythes as determined by the HHOF. They only go back to 1918, so they don't include Holmes' 1st 2 Cups


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 12-30-2012 at 02:42 AM.
TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 02:06 AM
  #13
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
Now that I've finished posting tables, I'll give my initial thoughts as a voter:

Tom Barrasso and Hap Holmes are almost certainly going in my top 4; beyond that it's wide open for me.

I definitely need to learn more about Percy LeSueur (whose name I am now spelling properly); Hap Holmes, as the other early guy seems like the easist comparison. I know Clint Benedict succeeded LeSueur in Ottawa. If nothing else, the MacLean's survey from 1925 is pretty good evidence pointing towards LeSueur as the best pre-WW1 goalie.

It will take a good argument for me to have either Dave Kerr or Lorne Chabot in my top 8. I'm pretty skeptical of pre-WW2 players who aren't in the HHOF, since I think it was easier to get in the Hall in the early days.

Pleasantly surprised we get to compare Giacomin to Luongo - I think it's easy to point out Luongo's playoff failings, while glossing over those of the older players.

I think Giacomin vs. Vachon really needs to be explored too.

As I said in response to tarheel, I have no idea where to rank Dzurilla.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 02:31 AM
  #14
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,647
vCash: 500
I'm feeling pretty good about my top three. Where I'm struggling right now is Thomas vs. Barrasso in the middle of my ballot. I like Barrasso's career, but I love Thomas' peak a lot. I want to have little Republican team-alienating babies with his 2009 and 2011 seasons. If he would have held up in the last half of 2011-12, it would have been a no-brainer for me, but the universe doesn't want to make this easy for me.

Luongo will take a 6th-8th probably.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 03:00 AM
  #15
overpass
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,618
vCash: 500
Here's an overview of Dave Kerr's career. Might be early for him, but I've researched him in the past and wanted to put this out there.

1929-30:
At age 20, Kerr won the Allan Cup with the Montreal AAA senior hockey club.

1930-31 through 1932-33:
Montreal Maroons signed Kerr (as well as several of his AAA teammates.) He spent the next three seasons bouncing between Montreal and the minors, fighting Flat Walsh and/or Normie Smith for the starting position. Kerr didn't win the job in camp in any of these seasons, but was twice the starter at the end of the season.

1933-34:
Kerr finally wins the Montreal starting job out of camp at plays a full NHL season for the first time at the age of 24.

1934-35:
Montreal brought veteran Alex Connell into camp. Kerr held out in a contract dispute, wasn't invited to camp, and Connell took his job. 10 games into the season, the Rangers were badly in need of a goaltender to replace Andy Aitkenhead, and traded for Kerr. Kerr improved their goals against record by quite a bit, and would tend goal in New York for the next seven years.

1934-35 through 1936-37:
These were transition years for the Rangers, as the great Cook-Boucher-Cook line aged and the younger players weren't quite ready to replace them. NYR hovered around 0.500, with an above-average record in goal prevention. In 1936 the Rangers missed the playoffs despite finishing above 0.500. In 1937, despite a weaker regular season record, they came within one game of winning the Stanley Cup final. Kerr had outstanding playoff numbers - his 4 playoff shutouts and 1.08 playoff GAA led all goalies in both categories.

1937-38 through 1939-40:
With young forwards like Clint Smith, Neil Colville and Phil Watson combined with an excellent defensive corps, the Rangers built on their playoff run to become one of the league's best teams. Only the Boston Bruins were better. But it was the New York Americans who upset them in 1938, as Kerr allowed a winning goal in the second overtime of Game 1 and in the fourth overtime of the decisive Game 3.

In 1939 they got their crack at the Bruins in the first round - the league didn't want to risk the two best teams in the league not meeting in the playoffs! This was the first year of the seven game series, and the all-time great Boston club (check out their roster and record!) needed all seven games to beat Kerr and the Rangers.

1940 was the year when it all came together for Kerr and the Rangers. One again, they were second to Boston in the regular season. But when they got another chance at Boston in the first round, they won this time. After going down 2-1 in the series, Kerr won back to back 1-0 shutouts to put the Rangers up 3-2 going home, where they closed it out. The Rangers beat Toronto in an anticlimactic final, and Kerr led all goalies with a 1.56 playoff GAA and 3 playoff shutouts.

Statistically, Kerr's 1939-40 season is one of the great goalie seasons of all time. A 1.54 GAA, when 2nd place was 1.94 and league average was 2.50. 3 shutouts against the defending Cup champs/regular season champs, including two 1-0 victories. And the Stanley Cup at the end. Maybe comparable to Tim Thomas in 2010-11, among current candidates.

1940-41: The Rangers returned the same roster, but dropped to fourth in the league in points and goals against. Kerr's GAA was roughly average at 2.49. At the end of the season, the word was the Lester Patrick wanted a change in goal. Kerr, saying he wasn't happy with his play of the past season, retired from the NHL at age 31. He took a position with a Toronto beverage company and coached their hockey team.

Summary: Kerr earned his NHL opportunity at a young age, but took a few years to nail down a starting job. Maybe, like Dominik Hasek, he was a slow starter? Once he established himself, he was a starter for 8 seasons. For most of these his performance appears to have been good - while he received little recognition in the end of year awards, his stats were above average. He had an all-time great season in 1939-40, maybe one of the best single seasons by a goaltender. Then his play drops off in the following season and he retires.

The drop-off from 1939-40 to 1940-41 is strange. Normally something like that would lead one to wonder if Kerr was really as good as his numbers in 1939-40. But it was the same roster and the same coach in both seasons. And both Patrick and Kerr were unhappy with Kerr's play in 1940-41, to the point that it ended his NHL career.


Last edited by overpass: 12-30-2012 at 03:06 AM.
overpass is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 10:10 AM
  #16
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,321
vCash: 500
Early opinions :

Bottom-end material :

Gerry Cheevers
Lorne Chabot

Won't be considered for Top-8

Vladimir Dzurilla
Percy LeSueur
Roberto Luongo

Top-8 lock, if anything

Hap Holmes
Tom Barrasso

Safe Top-8 lock, possibly Top-4

Curtis Joseph
Alec Connell

It's about time

Ed Giacomin
Rogie Vachon


Liut and Kerr are interesting new entries. Kerr perhaps have the best individual seasons of all goalies available; however, disregarding LeSueur, that was with a VERY strong team, and possibly nobody amongst available players ever had such support, with the exception of Connell (26) and Cheevers having such benefit. The good thing with Kerr? I think he compares well (not necessarily favorably, though) to Broda (for the moment their careers overlapped, anyways). The bad thing? His time as a top goalie was sorta short. The neutral? Not a very good crop of goalies then, especially if you're like me and think Tiny Thompson and Turk Broda are/were (a bit) overrated (I think it was already taken in consideration in his initial ranking, however). Also, doing better than Andy Aitkenhead is still nothing special at this point. The not-so-cool? Losing (well, not really -- see Overpass's post, above) his starter job to a retiree who ended up being a very important part of a Stanley Cup run on a team that shouldn't really have been there to begin with.

Liut? Funny case -- Start with overachievers, end with underachievers. The overachieving team overachieves because of him. The underachieving team...? Well, he didn't "sank" them per se, but he (or his apparently weaker partners?!?!?!) are ultimately outplayed by opponents, or the whole team just ends up being overmatched for whatever reason.

(Anybody knows exactly what happened in 1986, and why Liut didn't play ALL the games? I mean -- he was on a roll; in the same wake, why wasn't he ALWAYS the go-to guy in the Whale, and why did he get traded for a terrible netminder?).

Liut looks great by the vs. backups metric. But, at first glance, his backups were either post-prime or simply terrible (outplaying Rick Heinz should not be taken in consideration unless we're looking at a Top-200 or something).

His career screams "better than Luongo", but... not MUCH more; Liut starts the round out of the Top-8 as far as I'm concerned.


Last edited by MXD: 12-30-2012 at 11:30 AM.
MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:20 AM
  #17
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post

I have no idea what to do with Dzurilla.


Pretty much this. Mike Liut did himself no favors in the 1981 Canada Cup, that's for sure.
Too early for Dzurilla, I would think.

Should be noted that Canada was undefeated in the tourney with Luit in goal before the final against the USSR. Though the final was 8-1, USSR scored 3 times in last 4 minutes when Canada had clearly cashed it in.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:20 AM
  #18
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
On my original list, I had Vachon, Giacomin, Luongo, Joseph, and Vanbiesbrouck all right after each other, as basically equals. Someone tell me again what makes any of them better than the others.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:26 AM
  #19
DaveG
Mod Supervisor
How's the thesis?
 
DaveG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Durham NC
Country: United States
Posts: 32,369
vCash: 562
Sorry I missed the last vote, things got crazy at work. Gotta love when the flu starts to knock around the hospital staff at the same time you're getting the usual holiday callouts.

Anyway on this one: good god, not even sure where to begin.

I have to think Thomas is probably going to place pretty highly (but not at the top) for me if only because of that ridiculous peak. But his career in the NHL is so damn short. If he had cracked the NHL back in say 2000 after the IHL folded and done this then yeah, no question to me, he's in already.

Liut I really like, that's been no secret to anyone on the HoH board for a while. I honestly think MXD nailed it when he said he's basically a better version of Luongo for his era. Love the Hart recognition he got plus the Pearson and 1st team AS which would have likely been a Vezina as well had that award been what it is now.

Then of course you have Dzurilla now, though I anticipate him ending up low on my list should he crack it. Maybe next round will be a good time for him to get stronger consideration from me.

early outlook:
Giacomin is the only one that's even close to a top 4 lock

Holmes, Barrasso, Vachon, Thomas, Liut, Connell, Joseph, Kerr will all get strong top 4 consideration

that's not to say others can't crack my list, that's just how I'm leaning right now.

DaveG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:31 AM
  #20
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,076
vCash: 500
I'm having trouble seeing Liut over Luongo. Was Liut's 1981 any better than Luongo's 2007? Both were runner up for the Hart Trophy and Luongo narrowly lost the 1st team and Vezina to the best regular season of Martin Brodeur's career. And didn't Luongo have more additional seasons close to that level than Liut did?

To have Liut over Luongo, it seems to me like you are implicitly saying that goaltending in the 1980s was better than goaltending in the 2000s and I really don't think that was the case.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:37 AM
  #21
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
On my original list, I had Vachon, Giacomin, Luongo, Joseph, and Vanbiesbrouck all right after each other, as basically equals. Someone tell me again what makes any of them better than the others.
Good question.

All of them were game-stealers. I could honestly see voting for them right after each other again here, with Beezer being the last in the group.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:37 AM
  #22
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,321
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm having trouble seeing Liut over Luongo. Was Liut's 1981 any better than Luongo's 2007? Both were runner up for the Hart Trophy and Luongo narrowly lost the 1st team and Vezina to the best regular season of Martin Brodeur's career. And didn't Luongo have more additional seasons close to that level than Liut did?

To have Liut over Luongo, it seems to me like you are implicitly saying that goaltending in the 1980s was better than goaltending in the 2000s and I really don't think that was the case.
The main reason why I have Liut ahead of Luongo is that he was single-handedly able to make a below average team an average one, While Luongo's team never really "improved" their status as a result of his goaltending. Both netminders were spotty as far as "important" games are concerned, with a possible SLIGHT, VERY SLIGHT edge to Liut.

However, one thing I haven't thought about : what were the effects of playing in the most terrible division ever on Liut's career?

EDIT : Nevermind -- Liut haven't played enough in the traditionnal "Norris", and the Stars were a pretty good team at that point anyways.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:41 AM
  #23
Hawkey Town 18
Moderator
 
Hawkey Town 18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 4,494
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveG View Post
Sorry I missed the last vote, things got crazy at work. Gotta love when the flu starts to knock around the hospital staff at the same time you're getting the usual holiday callouts.

Anyway on this one: good god, not even sure where to begin.

I have to think Thomas is probably going to place pretty highly (but not at the top) for me if only because of that ridiculous peak. But his career in the NHL is so damn short. If he had cracked the NHL back in say 2000 after the IHL folded and done this then yeah, no question to me, he's in already.

Liut I really like, that's been no secret to anyone on the HoH board for a while. I honestly think MXD nailed it when he said he's basically a better version of Luongo for his era. Love the Hart recognition he got plus the Pearson and 1st team AS which would have likely been a Vezina as well had that award been what it is now.

Then of course you have Dzurilla now, though I anticipate him ending up low on my list should he crack it. Maybe next round will be a good time for him to get stronger consideration from me.

early outlook:
Giacomin is the only one that's even close to a top 4 lock

Holmes, Barrasso, Vachon, Thomas, Liut, Connell, Joseph, Kerr will all get strong top 4 consideration

that's not to say others can't crack my list, that's just how I'm leaning right now.
Really not seeing the case for Giacomin as clearly better than everyone else. There are some guys who he barely has a better Vezina/AS record than, and he has the worst playoff resume of anyone that's been up for voting in this entire project (actually, I guess there are some new guys this round that might have something to say about that, but the point stands). What am I missing here?

Hawkey Town 18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:45 AM
  #24
MadArcand
We do not sow
 
MadArcand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Pyke
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,625
vCash: 500
Was Giacomin actually actively losing the series for his teams like Luongo constantly does?

MadArcand is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:50 AM
  #25
Dennis Bonvie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Connecticut
Country: United States
Posts: 8,395
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm having trouble seeing Liut over Luongo. Was Liut's 1981 any better than Luongo's 2007? Both were runner up for the Hart Trophy and Luongo narrowly lost the 1st team and Vezina to the best regular season of Martin Brodeur's career. And didn't Luongo have more additional seasons close to that level than Liut did?

To have Liut over Luongo, it seems to me like you are implicitly saying that goaltending in the 1980s was better than goaltending in the 2000s and I really don't think that was the case.
One thing Liut may have in his favor was his leadership.

Emily Francis, as Whalers GM, acquired Liut for that as much as for his talent. Liut got as much credit as anyone for turning the culture around in Hartford, especially after trashing the locker room after a bad loss 2 weeks after he was there.

Dennis Bonvie is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:32 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.