HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

When does Burke go all in like AA?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
12-30-2012, 02:31 AM
  #51
Estimated_Prophet
Registered User
 
Estimated_Prophet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,201
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Forgot my whole reason for entering this rabbit hole of a thread.

BURKE cannot pull and All-in like AA untikl he has similar the assets to do so.

He has moved a former #5 overall and got a former #2 overall.

Kadri's stock has dropped to much to bother moving.

And you young HF'ers would have a freaking coronary if I suggested moving Rielly, but let' sput thinkgs in perspective.

The Jays acquired RA Dickey, NL Cy Young award winner.

It's hard to compare a pitcher to a hockey player but lets say a Cy Young winner is worth a Selke winner, or a top 3 forward , or a top 2 d-man or a #1 Goalie.

Now Dickey cost the Jay the best Catching prospect in the minors. So it would stand to reason that a Selke winner, or a top 3 fporward, or a top 2 d-man would for sure include one of the top D-man prospects in the minors?

Meaning Rielly is going to likely be part of any package for a top player.

Are you ready for that? Or would you rather wait another year to see Rielly?

All I want to point out is that Even though Burke is doing the same thing AA has done he does not have the assets to go All-in.
Good post!

Players like Kadri, Colborne, Frattin etc have very little trade value (I do like Frattin). If you want to get a top players via trade it will be one or both of Rielly/Gardiner that will have to be in play. Burke has built some nice depth on defence but the system is sorely lacking talent everywhere else.

Estimated_Prophet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 02:50 AM
  #52
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Estimated_Prophet View Post
Good post!

Players like Kadri, Colborne, Frattin etc have very little trade value (I do like Frattin). If you want to get a top players via trade it will be one or both of Rielly/Gardiner that will have to be in play. Burke has built some nice depth on defence but the system is sorely lacking talent everywhere else.
Thank you. ANd yes they have little trade value. Even though Kadri screams NHL talent and Frattin has a better shot than 1/2 the guys in the NHL right now. Neither has done anything to make them the centre piece in a major deal.

Right now the only two young assets we have to move as part of a major deal are Rielly and Gardiner.

IF we want a real #1C (top 5-10 in the league like Sundin was) it is going to cost one of these guys.

And that is just the starting price. It will cost more.

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 03:41 AM
  #53
rdawg1234
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,704
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Thank you. ANd yes they have little trade value. Even though Kadri screams NHL talent and Frattin has a better shot than 1/2 the guys in the NHL right now. Neither has done anything to make them the centre piece in a major deal.

Right now the only two young assets we have to move as part of a major deal are Rielly and Gardiner.

IF we want a real #1C (top 5-10 in the league like Sundin was) it is going to cost one of these guys.

And that is just the starting price. It will cost more.
I think our need for goaltending is much stronger.

I dont actually mind our offense, I think it's very playoff contention capable(by that I mean making the playoffs, not necessarily going deep) and has proven to be able to score.

Fix our goaltending(which is a huge need on a given team) allow time for our prospects to build value this year, then with the huge amount of capspace, go all in for a trade. By all in I mean, a 1st+Gardiner+ solid roster player(Kulemin)+ Prospect to net us a long-term #1 C. High price, but we are deep in defensive prospects, Have some solid guys to replace kulimen and that 1st shouldnt be high if we already have a #1 G.

I hope we have a good draft this year, as I would heavily consider trading the 2014 1st draft pick+ other things of high value this offseason to finally get a #1 C. Then replace those missing guys through free agency.

rdawg1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 03:55 AM
  #54
charliolemieux
rsTmf
 
charliolemieux's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,569
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I think our need for goaltending is much stronger.

I dont actually mind our offense, I think it's very playoff contention capable(by that I mean making the playoffs, not necessarily going deep) and has proven to be able to score.

Fix our goaltending(which is a huge need on a given team) allow time for our prospects to build value this year, then with the huge amount of capspace, go all in for a trade. By all in I mean, a 1st+Gardiner+ solid roster player(Kulemin)+ Prospect to net us a long-term #1 C. High price, but we are deep in defensive prospects, Have some solid guys to replace kulimen and that 1st shouldnt be high if we already have a #1 G.

I hope we have a good draft this year, as I would heavily consider trading the 2014 1st draft pick+ other things of high value this offseason to finally get a #1 C. Then replace those missing guys through free agency.
Well our choices in net are to overpay for a vet or overpay to take a gamble on a young goalie. Luongo is not worth more than a 2nd with his contract. Bernier, Holtby etc. have too little Experience to justify the price the other team wants. Would you give up Rielly for Holtby, Markstrom or BErnier?

Harding is sick, o r I would go after Backstrom in MInny.

charliolemieux is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 03:59 AM
  #55
rdawg1234
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 3,704
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliolemieux View Post
Well our choices in net are to overpay for a vet or overpay to take a gamble on a young goalie. Luongo is not worth more than a 2nd with his contract. Bernier, Holtby etc. have too little Experience to justify the price the other team wants. Would you give up Rielly for Holtby, Markstrom or BErnier?

Harding is sick, o r I would go after Backstrom in MInny.
I would actually bet big money we get luongo for a fair price(bozak/midprospect+ 2nd or 3rd rounder). I dont think Burke would overpay to get him at all, he's usually quite smart with his trades(obviously the Kessel one is debateable). But this trade has been rumored for a while and really makes sense for us.

Luongo is perfect IMO, gives us a few years to pick up some goalie prospects and develop them ourselves, Reimer and Scrivens is a terrible tandem to enter the season with(and I think Burke knows that). Neither has proven enough IMO, very mid-level starters as of now at best.

With Getz and Perry Close to FA as well, I'd bet Burke goes all in for them too, and if we make the playoffs with Luongo(obviously an if, not saying we'll get him for sure) then I'd bet one of the 2 at least will be interested. Wouldn't be surprised if we trade for one of them knowing the strong relationship with the anaheim GM burke has.

EDIT: IF we dont get Luongo, I'd go in with Reimer/Scrivens(which isnt a big deal as it's a shortened season) draft decenty high (which is no guarentee if either Reimer or Scrivens play well) and then try to trade for say Bernier and hope he pans out, but that still leaves us with inexperienced goaltending. Very risky. I dont think we are capable of a top 5 pick as a few teams are much worse than us on paper, a 5-10 pick maybe, with poor goaltending.

rdawg1234 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 08:23 AM
  #56
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 56,419
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdawg1234 View Post
I would actually bet big money we get luongo for a fair price(bozak/midprospect+ 2nd or 3rd rounder). I dont think Burke would overpay to get him at all, he's usually quite smart with his trades(obviously the Kessel one is debateable). But this trade has been rumored for a while and really makes sense for us.

Luongo is perfect IMO, gives us a few years to pick up some goalie prospects and develop them ourselves, Reimer and Scrivens is a terrible tandem to enter the season with(and I think Burke knows that). Neither has proven enough IMO, very mid-level starters as of now at best.

With Getz and Perry Close to FA as well, I'd bet Burke goes all in for them too, and if we make the playoffs with Luongo(obviously an if, not saying we'll get him for sure) then I'd bet one of the 2 at least will be interested. Wouldn't be surprised if we trade for one of them knowing the strong relationship with the anaheim GM burke has.

EDIT: IF we dont get Luongo, I'd go in with Reimer/Scrivens(which isnt a big deal as it's a shortened season) draft decenty high (which is no guarentee if either Reimer or Scrivens play well) and then try to trade for say Bernier and hope he pans out, but that still leaves us with inexperienced goaltending. Very risky. I dont think we are capable of a top 5 pick as a few teams are much worse than us on paper, a 5-10 pick maybe, with poor goaltending.
There are several UFA goaltenders 2013, including Backstrom, Howard, Mike Smith.

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
ULF_55 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 10:57 AM
  #57
eyeball11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,187
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
If we are guaranteed to win the CUp you take it every time.

There's no scenario that wins the Leafs the Cup now or anytime soon.

Not even worth talking about. Just makes me sad.
There's also no scenario that guarantees a Cup, so why would we waste time daydreaming about impossibilities and holding them up against reality?

If I could buy a lottery ticket I knew was a winner, I'd do it. Not really reality though is it?

eyeball11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:02 AM
  #58
RogerRoeper*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
He's failed the franchise.

If he leads the team to the sewer again I am personally organizing a facebook page to have him removed from office.
Isn't getting a top pick what you want? You'd just want the next guy to do that who replaces Burke.

RogerRoeper* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:08 AM
  #59
Kyle Doobas
#groovystats
 
Kyle Doobas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Toronto, ON
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,613
vCash: 159
"guaranteed to win the Cup"

Kyle Doobas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 11:16 AM
  #60
blasted_Sabre
Global Moderator
Warden of the North
 
blasted_Sabre's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Muskoka
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,319
vCash: 500
Hes made some similar moves

Dickey trade is comparable to the Kessel trade, other then Kessel is younger. Two impact prospects for a known commodity.

Marlins trade is similar to the Phanuef deal (something for nothing)

Cabrera signing is the key. It could turn out good for the Jays, it could turn out to be a hybrid of the Connolly and Komisarek signings.

The thing AA has going for him is that his new team hasnt yet played a game. His moves cant be evaluated fully until the team has played a year, and we have a better indication of the calibre of player they traded prospects will become. Will d'Arnaud, Sydengaard, or Nicholino (sorry if misspelled one of those names) turn into a "Seguin"? We dont know.

blasted_Sabre is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:08 PM
  #61
Bomber0104
Registered User
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Isn't getting a top pick what you want? You'd just want the next guy to do that who replaces Burke.
I just want competence from whoever is running the team.

Dont care if its Fat Tony, Ronald McDonald, or a Brian Burke

Doesn't matter. Just win. Just ****ing win.

And if winning is unattainable , then do not win and load up the team with a metric tonne of Nugent Hopkins type prospects.

If you fail and fail consistently like we have been doing...time for a change.

Rewarding failure sends a bad message throughout the franchise.

Starts at the top.

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:40 PM
  #62
RogerRoeper*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I just want competence from whoever is running the team.

Dont care if its Fat Tony, Ronald McDonald, or a Brian Burke

Doesn't matter. Just win. Just ****ing win.

And if winning is unattainable , then do not win and load up the team with a metric tonne of Nugent Hopkins type prospects.

If you fail and fail consistently like we have been doing...time for a change.

Rewarding failure sends a bad message throughout the franchise.

Starts at the top.
It's actually difficult to finish 30th and get 3 first rounders in a row. Why isn't Columbus much better? How about the Islanders?

RogerRoeper* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:41 PM
  #63
Mystifo
No more Mr.FightGuy
 
Mystifo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: YYT
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I just want competence from whoever is running the team.

Dont care if its Fat Tony, Ronald McDonald, or a Brian Burke

Doesn't matter. Just win. Just ****ing win.

And if winning is unattainable , then do not win and load up the team with a metric tonne of Nugent Hopkins type prospects.

If you fail and fail consistently like we have been doing...time for a change.

Rewarding failure sends a bad message throughout the franchise.

Starts at the top.


So you want to bring in a guy who can blow up what we currently have to set up back in our current rebuild and start over again? Please tell me what blowing up what we already have does? I mean did you not realize what this team did back last year up to December. We are not as bad off as you seem to make it believe (Then again your avatar is the pope so I should expect these doomsday theories.)

Mystifo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:42 PM
  #64
Bomber0104
Registered User
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
So you want to bring in a guy who can blow up what we currently have to set up back in our current rebuild and start over again? Please tell me what blowing up what we already have does? I mean did you not realize what this team did back last year up to December. We are not as bad off as you seem to make it believe (Then again your avatar is the pope so I should expect these doomsday theories.)
Blow up a 5th last place team....

Evidently there isn't much to blow up.

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:48 PM
  #65
Mystifo
No more Mr.FightGuy
 
Mystifo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: YYT
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
Blow up a 5th last place team....

Evidently there isn't much to blow up.
We have no goaltending and like it or not we are not playing a Dave Tippett system so we are of course going to finish out of the playoffs and with a top 10 draft pick but with a pretty amazing goalie market coming up. (Kipper, Lou, Thomas, Howard, Smith, Backstrom.) I would much rather see what this team can do with a capable goalie. But yeah lets trade our Young PPG winger in Kessel and get a late first + B prospect and finish dead last for another 5+ years because hell it worked so well for New York Islanders and Columbus I mean with all the high draft picks the Islanders had you figure they would be back to their glory days of the 80's...

Mystifo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:51 PM
  #66
RogerRoeper*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
We have no goaltending and like it or not we are not playing a Dave Tippett system so we are of course going to finish out of the playoffs and with a top 10 draft pick but with a pretty amazing goalie market coming up. (Kipper, Lou, Thomas, Howard, Smith, Backstrom.) I would much rather see what this team can do with a capable goalie. But yeah lets trade our Young PPG winger in Kessel and get a late first + B prospect and finish dead last for another 5+ years because hell it worked so well for New York Islanders and Columbus I mean with all the high draft picks the Islanders had you figure they would be back to their glory days of the 80's...
He'll tell you Columbus and the Islanders only have not worked because of money.


I laugh at people who think "Blow it up, be like Pittsburgh". They're living in a dream world.

Rebuilding does not work nearly as well as most think.

This Leaf team had horrific coaching and goaltending and was in a playoff spot the majority of the season. There is no shot at 30th next season (Whenever that comes).

RogerRoeper* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:51 PM
  #67
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 11,387
vCash: 500
Any effort to draw comparisons is fruitless.

Even the knowledgable posts in this thread are hard to read.

Gobias Industries is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:56 PM
  #68
Mystifo
No more Mr.FightGuy
 
Mystifo's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: YYT
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,038
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
He'll tell you Columbus and the Islanders only have not worked because of money.


I laugh at people who think "Blow it up, be like Pittsburgh". They're living in a dream world.

Rebuilding does not work nearly as well as most think.

This Leaf team had horrific coaching and goaltending and was in a playoff spot the majority of the season. There is no shot at 30th next season (Whenever that comes).
Honestly right now I am just giving up as I have come to the conclusion he is just one of those anti leafs here to just rustle my jimmies.

Mystifo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 12:59 PM
  #69
p.l.f.
mvp
 
p.l.f.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Toronto, CANADA
Posts: 35,475
vCash: 500
hopefully the anaheim ducks will be our florida marlins

p.l.f. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:00 PM
  #70
Bomber0104
Registered User
 
Bomber0104's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Country: Canada
Posts: 7,484
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystifo View Post
We have no goaltending and like it or not we are not playing a Dave Tippett system so we are of course going to finish out of the playoffs and with a top 10 draft pick but with a pretty amazing goalie market coming up. (Kipper, Lou, Thomas, Howard, Smith, Backstrom.) I would much rather see what this team can do with a capable goalie. But yeah lets trade our Young PPG winger in Kessel and get a late first + B prospect and finish dead last for another 5+ years because hell it worked so well for New York Islanders and Columbus I mean with all the high draft picks the Islanders had you figure they would be back to their glory days of the 80's...
LA KINGS: 2nd overall pick on their team
BOSTON BRUINS: 2nd overall pick on their team
CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS: 1st overall picks on their team
PITTSBURGH PENGUINS: 1st overall picks on their team

Get the picture?

There's nothing to blow up here in Toronto. The team is ****. We have been one of the worst teams in the NHL for years. Honestly Im pretty sure Team Canada world junior would beat them consistently.

Bomber0104 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:07 PM
  #71
eyeball11
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 12,187
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
LA KINGS: 2nd overall pick on their team
BOSTON BRUINS: 2nd overall pick on their team
CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS: 1st overall picks on their team
PITTSBURGH PENGUINS: 1st overall picks on their team

Get the picture?

There's nothing to blow up here in Toronto. The team is ****. We have been one of the worst teams in the NHL for years. Honestly Im pretty sure Team Canada world junior would beat them consistently.
LA Kings had one self drafted pick inside the top 10 on their team.

Boston didn't have a single regular self drafted player inside the first round on their Cup winner.

There's far more to building a team than drafting top 2. Doesn't hurt but your "picture" is lacking.

eyeball11 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:31 PM
  #72
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 60,834
vCash: 500
Burke is already under tremendous pressure to deliver, and that will only be increased further as Argos where CFL champs and Jays are now set up to be successful..

So as far as sports in Toronto go other sports winning results will increase the pressure on Leafs to compete as well in the city where the reside.

Everyone loves a winner and Leafs are expected by MLSE to be one also.

__________________
Signature: There is no greater demonstration of Fan patience then to suggest to "Play the Kids " and be willing to accept the consequences of those actions..
Mess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 01:47 PM
  #73
RogerRoeper*
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,694
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
LA KINGS: 2nd overall pick on their team
BOSTON BRUINS: 2nd overall pick on their team
CHICAGO BLACKHAWKS: 1st overall picks on their team
PITTSBURGH PENGUINS: 1st overall picks on their team

Get the picture?

There's nothing to blow up here in Toronto. The team is ****. We have been one of the worst teams in the NHL for years. Honestly Im pretty sure Team Canada world junior would beat them consistently.
Seguin was a scratch for half the playoff games in 2011'. That's not why they won anything. They built through UFA signings, trades, and great second round drafting.


Pittsburgh and Chicago were very lucky. Kane in fact, was selected first overall despite Chicago finishing 26th overall.

RogerRoeper* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 05:59 PM
  #74
Leafsdude7
Stand-Up Philosopher
 
Leafsdude7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,266
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Leafsdude7 Send a message via MSN to Leafsdude7 Send a message via Yahoo to Leafsdude7
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
LA Kings had one self drafted pick inside the top 10 on their team.

Boston didn't have a single regular self drafted player inside the first round on their Cup winner.

There's far more to building a team than drafting top 2. Doesn't hurt but your "picture" is lacking.
Tyler Seguin?

They also had Jordan Caron on their roster, though he didn't play a playoff game.

Leafsdude7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
12-30-2012, 06:10 PM
  #75
Leafsdude7
Stand-Up Philosopher
 
Leafsdude7's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,266
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Leafsdude7 Send a message via MSN to Leafsdude7 Send a message via Yahoo to Leafsdude7
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Seguin was a scratch for half the playoff games in 2011'. That's not why they won anything. They built through UFA signings, trades, and great second round drafting.


Pittsburgh and Chicago were very lucky. Kane in fact, was selected first overall despite Chicago finishing 26th overall.
Remember that Pittsburgh, while lucky to get Crosby, drafted top 2 4 years in a row and had 3 other key players from that Cup because of it, along with Crosby: Fleury, Staal and Malkin. Since Malkin wasn't going to come over in 2004-05 even if there wasn't a lockout, and Staal was taken in the 2006 draft, one can assume they weren't going to be much better that year anyway, so getting #1 overall and selecting Crosby wasn't completely lucky, either.

As for the Hawks, while they got somewhat lucky with Kane (they likely would have ended up with Gagner, Voracek, Hamill or Couture if they picked 5th), they still took Brent Seabrook in the 2003 draft as well.

Leafsdude7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.