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Should Burke be given one extra year to redeem himself?

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Old
12-30-2012, 01:37 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
You should explain that to Burke , then again Burke did think he had a great coach when he said Ronnie was his num 1 star .

Also if it's all about the goalie and the coach then Burke should and traded the picks for a star goalie and not a soft one way winger .
Reimer deserves another chance. He's rebuilding.

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12-30-2012, 01:42 PM
  #52
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why shouldn't he have been hired in the first place? you're judging him based on his time in toronto, which wasn't close to 10 years.

his title was gm, so we have to assume he had the same powers and authority as any other gm in the league. doesn't really matter much to your argument though. if someone else was pulling the strings, then that person should have gotten 10 years before being judged.

if you buy ken holland's idea, then you have to admit jfj was judged far too early into his tenure and should have been given 10 years.
Maybe he's judging based on his complete lack of any GM success or results anywhere prior to being handed the reins to one of the most storied franchises in the league?

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12-30-2012, 01:45 PM
  #53
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WTF do you think people are ignoring ? The team finished 7th last in back to back seasons yet for some reason his supporters keep saying there's no way he could have known he was giving up the 2nd and 9th overall picks . I also love how on one hand his supporters say this rebuild is taking so long because the team was god awful when he took over then turn around and say there's no way anyone could have known the picks would be this high .

What has Kessel done for the team in his 3 years here ? Yes he's done what Burke expected of him but it has made zero difference in the standings .

WTF does Reilly have to do with Hamilton ? They're both excellent prospects and i don't need to knock one to be a fan of the other .
When people refuse to acknowledge the acquisition of many 1st rounders and refuse to acknowledge Kessel in the Kessel deal and blow sunshine up their touted #9's posterior while putting down Reilly, what more do you need explained? Would you prefer it in French? Perhaps if I give it to you in Gaelic that would help? Admitedly, I only know so many languages but whatever I can do to help.

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12-30-2012, 01:46 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
Reimer deserves another chance. He's rebuilding.
Burke's not rebuilding , it's been failed retool after failed retool . It's only being spun as a rebuild because Burkes a failure .

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12-30-2012, 01:47 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
JFJ had full autonomy and admitted as much when he said the only time anyone interfered with his job was when he asked to do a full rebuild and was told that wasn't an option . However he only wanted to do a full rebuild once he failed at retooling a 100 pt team .

JFJ unlike Burke wasn't allowed to fail multiple times and if you want to blame the ownership for anything it's that they didn't allow him to keep trying to ice a quality team after multiple failed seasons .
That's BS because we also know he wasn't allowed to change his coach.

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12-30-2012, 01:53 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Frankie View Post
why shouldn't he have been hired in the first place? you're judging him based on his time in toronto, which wasn't close to 10 years.

his title was gm, so we have to assume he had the same powers and authority as any other gm in the league. doesn't really matter much to your argument though. if someone else was pulling the strings, then that person should have gotten 10 years before being judged.

if you buy ken holland's idea, then you have to admit jfj was judged far too early into his tenure and should have been given 10 years.
Previous to becoming GM of the Leafs, JFJ was a scout for San Jose. He had shown no ability whatsoever to be in a management role. Let alone one that comes with the pressures of the NHL largest market. Furthermore, Pat Quinn should never have been let go. He was on a string of playoff appearances but was forced out because ownership thought they could run the team better. It was an insult to a great man and good GM.

JFJ was young and controllable. Quinn was not. When Burke was hired, he made it abundantly clear he would only accept the position if he was given complete autonomy in hockey operations. It was known league wide that JFJ was nothing more then a puppet.

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12-30-2012, 02:02 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
Burke's not rebuilding , it's been failed retool after failed retool . It's only being spun as a rebuild because Burkes a failure .
He just drafted Rielly and Finn. He's not rebuilding?

He keeps making the team younger and getting prospects/ first round picks. How is that a retool?

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12-30-2012, 02:10 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
When people refuse to acknowledge the acquisition of many 1st rounders and refuse to acknowledge Kessel in the Kessel deal and blow sunshine up their touted #9's posterior while putting down Reilly, what more do you need explained? Would you prefer it in French? Perhaps if I give it to you in Gaelic that would help? Admitedly, I only know so many languages but whatever I can do to help.
He's aquired exactly 2 late first round picks and they came at a cost . For someone who canstantly complains about people ignoring Kessel in the Kessel trade you always seem to ignore what we actually traded to get those 2 first round picks .

It's also shocking the same people that were slagging Hamilton as an overated prospect who has proven nothing at the NHL level have to no problem projecting Reilly as a superstar . People like me who criticize the Kessel deal arn't knocking Reilly but saying the exact same thing about him that we're saying about Hamilton . Unfortunatly saying he's an elite prospect isn't good enough with the Burke supporters who need to cling to anything they can to support the guy . For guys like you we have to say Reilly's not only a lock for the hall of fame but also that Burke stole him and it was shock that we could have drafted an elite prospect in a good draft with the 5th overall pick .


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12-30-2012, 02:15 PM
  #59
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That's BS because we also know he wasn't allowed to change his coach.
BS my ass , the article has been posted here many times and was using direct quotes from JFJ .

Also JFJ was allowed to get rid of Quinn and Maurice was hired by JFJ . Also how many coach's do you feel a GM should be able to go through in the short time he was here .

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12-30-2012, 02:15 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He's aquired exactly 2 late first round picks and they came at a cost . For someone who canstantly complains about people ignoring Kessel in the Kessel trade you always seem to ignore what we actually traded to get those 2 first round picks .

It's also shocking the same people that were slagging Hamilton as an overated prospect who has proven nothing at the NHL level have to no problem projecting Reilly as a superstar . People like me who criticize the Kessel deal arn't knocking Reilly but saying the exact same thing about him that we're saying about Hamilton . Unfortunatly saying his an elite prospect isn't good enough with the Burke supporters who need to cling to anything they can to support the guy . For guys like you we have to say Reilly's not only a lock for the hall of fame but also that Burke stole him and it was shock that we could have drafted an elite prospect in a good draft with the 5th overall pick .
True enough.

I think it's clear that some people want to be realistic fans and some are programmed to just cheer on the Leafs and everything to do with them no matter what.

I just dont understand why we cant all be friends.

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12-30-2012, 02:19 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
He just drafted Rielly and Finn. He's not rebuilding?

He keeps making the team younger and getting prospects/ first round picks. How is that a retool?
Because every team drafts players (unless they trade them away). I can basically say with that in mind that 30 teams are rebuilding every year. But when everyone is rebuilding it doesnt really do the term justice. You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere.

Brian Burke isnt any different than 29 other gms.

Hes just performed worse every year than mostly all of them.

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12-30-2012, 02:21 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
He just drafted Rielly and Finn. He's not rebuilding?

He keeps making the team younger and getting prospects/ first round picks. How is that a retool?
He's made moves every off season to retool the team for the following season . Just because the team fails and he's rewarded for his failure with a lottery pick doesn't mean he's rebuilding . How many rebuilding teams have only 2 picks in the first 4 rounds if the true plan was rebuilding .

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12-30-2012, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He's aquired exactly 2 late first round picks and they came at a cost . For someone who canstantly complains about people ignoring Kessel in the Kessel trade you always seem to ignore what we actually traded to get those 2 first round picks .

It's also shocking the same people that were slagging Hamilton as an overated prospect who has proven nothing at the NHL level have to no problem projecting Reilly as a superstar . People like me who criticize the Kessel deal arn't knocking Reilly but saying the exact same thing about him that we're saying about Hamilton . Unfortunatly saying his an elite prospect isn't good enough with the Burke supporters who need to cling to anything they can to support the guy . For guys like you we have to say Reilly's not only a lock for the hall of fame but also that Burke stole him and it was shock that we could have drafted an elite prospect in a good draft with the 5th overall pick .
How many 1st round prospects has he acquired or high 1st round players?

Glad to see that as usual, you (and your type) have to resort to creating arguments that have never been made to try and make a point. You (and your type) use the same arguments when discussing Burke and others. Easy to make an argument when you make things up and hold people responsible for what only you yourself have said.

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12-30-2012, 02:23 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He's made moves every off season to retool the team for the following season . Just because the team fails and he's rewarded for his failure with a lottery pick doesn't mean he's rebuilding . How many rebuilding teams have only 2 picks in the first 4 rounds if the true plan was rebuilding .
How many teams have acquired as many 1st rounders over the past 4 - 5 drafts?

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12-30-2012, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
BS my ass , the article has been posted here many times and was using direct quotes from JFJ .

Also JFJ was allowed to get rid of Quinn and Maurice was hired by JFJ . Also how many coach's do you feel a GM should be able to go through in the short time he was here .
As many as he feels is necessary and yes, he was prevented from canning Maurice. It was widely discussed at the time.

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12-30-2012, 02:27 PM
  #66
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How many teams have acquired as many 1st rounders over the past 4 - 5 drafts?
That doesnt mean anything.

Its an irrelevant point.

Hasn't helped us in the standings, and evidently in the perception of our prospect pools in scouting panels.

No evidence these are good or bad moves.

Just moves.

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12-30-2012, 02:30 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He's made moves every off season to retool the team for the following season . Just because the team fails and he's rewarded for his failure with a lottery pick doesn't mean he's rebuilding . How many rebuilding teams have only 2 picks in the first 4 rounds if the true plan was rebuilding .
So you're going to give credit to Garth Snow then but not Brian Burke?

Look at Burke's moves. He's clearly rebuilding.

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12-30-2012, 02:31 PM
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Well since the last year of the contract was not fair to him, do you think he deserves to redeem himself? He was rebuilding after all and the lockout was not fair for his last year to prove that his team can make the playoffs. Even a shortened season would not be fair to him.

We probably won't resign Connolly, Steckel, Lombardi so that gives him a lot of capspace to sign a good UFA.

If it were me I'd give him one more chance by giving him one more year.
He's got two years left why would you, and don't count on the salary cap the new nhl proposal calls for a reduction in the cap from 72 mllion to 60 million next year. The only thing that will save him is if he gets the No.1 pick the next two drafts.

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12-30-2012, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
So you're going to give credit to Garth Snow then but not Brian Burke?

Look at Burke's moves. He's clearly rebuilding.
Some people feel the Islanders have a brighter future than Toronto.

They might be right they might be wrong.

Depends on your faith in young talent.

We cant predict the future so in the meantime we can just say that both teams suck ass and better turn it around or changes will be made.

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12-30-2012, 02:39 PM
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That doesnt mean anything.

Its an irrelevant point.

Hasn't helped us in the standings, and evidently in the perception of our prospect pools in scouting panels.

No evidence these are good or bad moves.

Just moves.
So you guys want 1st rounders but don't want first rounders and you want them to provide immediate success whereas it normally takes teams many years to see benefits from draft picks. I really wish you guys would pick what you want. If you want young high picks than accept that it will take time to see success. If you want immediate success than accept that he'll need to go after a vet goalie (and possibly other vets at the expense of youth) and you'll then be sacrificing picks.

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12-30-2012, 02:41 PM
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He's got two years left why would you, and don't count on the salary cap the new nhl proposal calls for a reduction in the cap from 72 mllion to 60 million next year. The only thing that will save him is if he gets the No.1 pick the next two drafts.
Why? That still won't produce the "results" many deem necessary. Just ask Edmonton.

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12-30-2012, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
When people refuse to acknowledge the acquisition of many 1st rounders and refuse to acknowledge Kessel in the Kessel deal and blow sunshine up their touted #9's posterior while putting down Reilly, what more do you need explained? Would you prefer it in French? Perhaps if I give it to you in Gaelic that would help? Admitedly, I only know so many languages but whatever I can do to help.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hotpaws View Post
He's aquired exactly 2 late first round picks and they came at a cost . For someone who canstantly complains about people ignoring Kessel in the Kessel trade you always seem to ignore what we actually traded to get those 2 first round picks .

It's also shocking the same people that were slagging Hamilton as an overated prospect who has proven nothing at the NHL level have to no problem projecting Reilly as a superstar . People like me who criticize the Kessel deal arn't knocking Reilly but saying the exact same thing about him that we're saying about Hamilton . Unfortunatly saying he's an elite prospect isn't good enough with the Burke supporters who need to cling to anything they can to support the guy . For guys like you we have to say Reilly's not only a lock for the hall of fame but also that Burke stole him and it was shock that we could have drafted an elite prospect in a good draft with the 5th overall pick .
Quote:
Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
How many 1st round prospects has he acquired or high 1st round players?

Glad to see that as usual, you (and your type) have to resort to creating arguments that have never been made to try and make a point. You (and your type) use the same arguments when discussing Burke and others. Easy to make an argument when you make things up and hold people responsible for what only you yourself have said.
I'm not the one who's creating arguments that never existed to try to make a point .

The highest former 1st round prospect or pick for that matter that he has aquired was picked in the mid teens and not one of them is worth a damn outside of Gardiner .

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12-30-2012, 02:44 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by eyeball11 View Post
So you guys want 1st rounders but don't want first rounders and you want them to provide immediate success whereas it normally takes teams many years to see benefits from draft picks. I really wish you guys would pick what you want. If you want young high picks than accept that it will take time to see success. If you want immediate success than accept that he'll need to go after a vet goalie (and possibly other vets at the expense of youth) and you'll then be sacrificing picks.
I want results from the accelerated rebuild. In other words winning. Start by making the playoffs. I don't give a **** how its done just ****ing win. I dont care who is in charge, just get the results.

And if playoffs are out of reach (which they seemingly are), then I want the Nugent Hopkins of the world, the Seth Jones, whatever.

You know...meaningful results.

Standings.

Rare prospects.

Toronto has done neither under Burke. He's been an utter failure in icing a playoff team and that looks like it isnt changing anytime soon and hes shown no urgency in finding rare prospects to make the playoffs down the road. He has drafted Rielly but thats only because he really screwed up.

His time is running out to get results.

We should not reward Burke for failure. THis is the sports industry. Failure should never be rewarded.

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12-30-2012, 02:44 PM
  #74
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Originally Posted by RogerRoeper View Post
So you're going to give credit to Garth Snow then but not Brian Burke?

Look at Burke's moves. He's clearly rebuilding.
When did i ever mention Snow ?

All 30 teams teams are rebuilding if you judge them by Burkes moves .

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12-30-2012, 02:48 PM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Bomber0104 View Post
I want results from the accelerated rebuild. In other words winning. Start by making the playoffs. I don't give a **** how its done just ****ing win. I dont care who is in charge, just get the results.

And if playoffs are out of reach (which they seemingly are), then I want the Nugent Hopkins of the world, the Seth Jones, whatever.

You know...meaningful results.

Standings.

Rare prospects.

Toronto has done neither under Burke. He has drafted Rielly but thats only because he really screwed up.

His time is running out to get results.

We should not reward Burke for failure. THis is the sports industry. Failure should never be rewarded.
So you don't know what you want and probably have little idea how to achieve it.

You are aware that all low picks come because "the GM screwed up", right? You're also aware that being given high picks (that which you want) is a direct example of "failure being rewarded" right?

Take your pick.

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